Hi a couple of 'pentecostal type questions'

[theywhosowintears]

I had some questions if you would be so kind as to answer.

What is the Word of Faith (WOF) movement exactly and what beliefs does it have which are not biblical? (I don't know alot about them)

On matters relating to pentecostalism in general (more specifically speaking in tongues, prophecy and other supernatural workings of the Spirit of God as recorded in Acts, Romans Corinthians etc) what is the position of the reformed church? Do these things still happen and is the same power available to us today? What is main divergence between the pentecostal and reformed church on this subject?


Thanks for your answers guys!

Peace

PS: No I am not asking cause I have been arguing with my fiancee (who is froma Reformed church)...just thought I should clarify...

 

[StAnselm]

Just taking the second question, there is some difference of opinion within the Christian Reformed Churches on the matter.

Probably the majority opinion would be that tongues and prophecy - as outlined and practiced in the New Testament - have stopped. They belonged to the apostolic age, whioch has long since closed. So whatever pentecostals do when they speak in tongues, it's not the same as what Paul was talking about.

Then there are various degrees of openness, right up to the (fairly small) group of charismatics within the CRC.

This is certainly something you need to be discussing with your fiancee, so it is resolved before you get married.

 

[theywhosowintears]

Just taking the second question, there is some difference of opinion within the Christian Reformed Churches on the matter.

Probably the majority opinion would be that tongues and prophecy - as outlined and practiced in the New Testament - have stopped. They belonged to the apostolic age, whioch has long since closed. So whatever pentecostals do when they speak in tongues, it's not the same as what Paul was talking about.

Then there are various degrees of openness, right up to the (fairly small) group of charismatics within the CRC.

This is certainly something you need to be discussing with your fiancee, so it is resolved before you get married.

The apostolic age... is it recorded in the bible that these things have ceased (other then in reference to love never ceasing) or is it more from the view that these things simply stopped happening (without a biblical basis)?

PS: It is not an issue between my fiancee and myself... we agree on the majority and are commited to seeking God and taking His word as the basis for the things we don't know for sure.

 

[Dmckay]

With regard to your question about the Word of Faith movement. Here is a concise explanation of some of the beliefs/practices of the word of faith movement from an Apologetics site that deals primarily with cults:
Word-Faith Movement

Also known as "Name-in-Claim-it," "Health and Wealth Gospel," "Positive Confession," "Word of Faith," etc.
Word-Faith teachers owe their ancestry to groups like Christian Science, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, Science of Mind, and New Thought--not to classical Pentecostalism. It reveals that at their very core, Word-Faith teachings are corrupt. Their undeniable derivation is cultish, not Christian. The sad truth is that the gospel proclaimed by the Word-Faith movement is not the gospel of the New Testament. Word-Faith doctrine is a mongrel system, a blend of mysticism, dualism, and gnosticism that borrows generously from the teachings of the metaphysical cults. The Word-Faith movement may be the most dangerous false system that has grown out of the charismatic movement so far, because so many charismatics are unsure of the finality of Scripture
John MacArthur, Charismatic Chaos, p. 290
There are many perculiar ideas and practices in the Faith theology, but what merits it the label of heresy are the following: 1) its deistic view of God, who must dance to men's attempts to manipulate the spiritual laws of the universe; 2) its demonic view of Christ, who was filled with "the Satanic nature" and must be "born again in hell; 3) its gnostic view of revelation, which demands denial of the physical senses and classifies Christians by their willingness to do so; and 4) its metaphysical view of salvation, which deifies man and spiritualizes the atonement, locating it in hell rather than on the cross, thereby subverting the crucial biblical belief that it is Christ's physical death and shed blood, which alone atone for sin. All four of these heresies may be accounted for by Kenyon's syncretism of methaphysical thought with traditional biblical doctrine"
D.R. McConnell, A Different Gospel

 

[Dmckay]

If you really want to know more about these people here are some suggested readings and links available"
- Articles -
Atonement and the Word-Faith Movement Article from Watchman Fellowship
Atonement Where? A Biblical analysis and refutation of the disturbing claims put forward by the Faith Movement, which include the inefficiency of Christ's blood, alone, to atone for the sins of man; the need for Christ's spiritual death, and that the redemption of mankind was completed in hell. By Moreno Dal Bello
An Examination of the Word-Faith Movement A good overview.
Faith in Faith or Faith in God? by Hank Hanegraaff, president of CRI
The 'Faith' Movement May Be Prospering, But Is It Healthy? By Stuart StJohn.
Heresies of the Word Faith Movement in chart form.
Heresies of the Word-Faith Movement Documented with quotes (.wav files available)
Misplaced Faith "By saying the right formulas, can people control God?"
My Word-of-Faith Testimony by Tricia Tillin
Pentecost or Plotinus? A discussion of the origins of word-faith teaching being Plotinus not the Pentecostal movement. By Oliver Hammond.
Positive Confession Article from Watchman Fellowship
Profile of the Word-Faith Movement by Watchman Fellowship
Ten Reasons To Reject Word of Faith Teachings By Tricia Tillin
What's Wrong With The Faith Movement? and part two By Hank Hanegraaff.
Word-Faith Theology by Watchman Fellowship
Word-Faith Theology and Mormonism a Watchman Fellowship article.
- Books - Click On Titles To Order At Discount » More Books
Christianity In Crisis by Hank Hanegraaff. Addresses the errors of the word-faith movement.
A Different Gospel by D.R. McConnell.
The Word-Faith Controversy : Understanding the Health and Wealth Gospel by Robert Bowman. A balanced overview and thorough critique of the movement. The publisher of Apologetics Index highly recommends this book.
Robert Bowman Jr. critically examines the movement's origins and teachings, distinguishing acceptable Pentecostal practices from distorted offshoots. He insists that the word-faith movement is 'neither soundly orthodox nor thorougly heretical' and encourages charismatic believers to pursue a rich, mature, and biblical sound Pentecostalism.'' Not only does The Word-Faith Controversy examine the founders and the message of the movement, it goes beyond the health and wealth promise to uncover what have become the most controversial aspects - what the movement's teachings on faith, words, and confession imply about God, Jesus Christ, human beings, and the nature of the Christian faith.

 

[StAnselm]

The apostolic age... is it recorded in the bible that these things have ceased (other then in reference to love never ceasing) or is it more from the view that these things simply stopped happening (without a biblical basis)?

Both, actually. Some would, I suppose, derive it from the concept of speaking in tongues itself - that it is a judgement on the Jews, that it is connected in the book of Acts with the establishment of the church, that it accompanies apostolic teaching.

These things, therefore, are associated with the apostolic era - and so the issue of tongues/prophecy is similar to that of the establishment of the canon. There is no explicit teaching in the NT concerning when the canon was going to close, but it did close.

 

[xapis]

Interesting thread... just a follow-up question. You mentioned that you believe the Spiritual gifts of tongues and prophecy have ceased, referencing 1 Corinthians 13:8. Referencing the same verse, do you also believe the gift of knowledge is no longer available to us?

To clarify, this is just a question to you about your belief in this matter. I don't intend to debate it.

Thanks,
Lane

 

[Dmckay]

Interesting thread... just a follow-up question. You mentioned that you believe the Spiritual gifts of tongues and prophecy have ceased, referencing 1 Corinthians 13:8. Referencing the same verse, do you also believe the gift of knowledge is no longer available to us?

To clarify, this is just a question to you about your belief in this matter. I don't intend to debate it.

Thanks,
Lane

As a Spiritual gift it passed with the close of the Apostolic era and the completion of the Canon. Does or can G-d still grant manifestations of these so-called "sign gifts"? Yes, absolutely. I have personally witnessed several. But as a Spiritual gift for edifying the Body of Christ and building up the Church? No.

 

[theywhosowintears]

thank you for your answers... they have been informative.

Wouldn't the great comission suggest that signs will follow those who believe even after the apostolic era?

Or

If someone was in an area that was unchurched, and faced similar circumstances to the early church (persecution, overcoming other belief systems etc) would it be possible for God to move in the same way?

 

[StAnselm]

If someone was in an area that was unchurched, and faced similar circumstances to the early church (persecution, overcoming other belief systems etc) would it be possible for God to move in the same way?

Of course, the question isn't what it is possible for God to do, but merely what he actually does do. Certainly some Reformed people are a lot more open to special gifts occurring in situations where the gospel is coming to an area for the first time - as indeed happens in the book of Acts. Which would, I guess, make it the sign of an immature church - which seems to be the idea in Corinthians.

Wouldn't the great comission suggest that signs will follow those who believe even after the apostolic era?

The Great Commission in Matthew 28 doesn't talk about miraculous gifts. Mark 16:9-20 does, but it is debatable as to whether that even belong in the Bible - the manuscript evidence seems a bit deficient.

 

[Dmckay]

thank you for your answers... they have been informative.

Wouldn't the great comission suggest that signs will follow those who believe even after the apostolic era?

Or

If someone was in an area that was unchurched, and faced similar circumstances to the early church (persecution, overcoming other belief systems etc) would it be possible for God to move in the same way?

One would have to study and understand the nature and historic appearances of the "semeion" or sign miracles and gifts. They have not appeared throughout recorded Biblical history. Rather, only during times when there was need for authentication of a message or messenger from G-d during extreme times. The Apostolic Fathers writings are pretty clear that the "semeion" passed with the Apostles.

 

[theywhosowintears]

Thanks for your help. I will keep studying the bible and talking to my heavenly Father, I pray you guys do too!

God bless,

tears