Heya

[eoe]

Do you beleive that God creates people for the specific purpose of eternal torture? How does double predestination work? I am specifically interested in your view on the damned.
Thanks!

 

[frumanchu]

R.C. Sproul has a great article on "Double" Predestination that should help explain some of it.

 

[eoe]

Alright... I went throught the article. It states that:

Only in a positive-positive schema of predestination does double-predestination leave us with a capricious deity whose sovereign decrees manifest a divine tyranny. Reformed theology has consistently eschewed such a hyper-supralapsarianism. Opponents of Calvinism, however, persistently caricature the straw man of hyper-supralapsarianism, doing violence to the Reformed faith and assaulting the dignity of God's sovereignty.

In light of this - Did God intend for Adam and Eve to sin?

 

[McWilliams]

Nothing happens outside the realm of His control and design!

 

[eoe]

Thanks for the response!

Nothing happens outside the realm of His control and design!

It appears that you have created a logical problem here.
The Article explicitly states that God does not work evil.
If God does not work evil AND if nothing happens outside of his controll and design then how did the fall happen? If nothing happens outside his control then he had to have planned for Adam and Even to sin. If he planned for them to sin then there is positive-positive double predestination that the article speaks against so strongly.


Forgive me but I don't understand.

 

[frumanchu]

Alright... I went throught the article. It states that:

In light of this - Did God intend for Adam and Eve to sin?

Intend it in what sense?

 

[frumanchu]

Thanks for the response!

It appears that you have created a logical problem here.
The Article explicitly states that God does not work evil.
If God does not work evil AND if nothing happens outside of his controll and design then how did the fall happen? If nothing happens outside his control then he had to have planned for Adam and Even to sin. If he planned for them to sin then there is positive-positive double predestination that the article speaks against so strongly.


Forgive me but I don't understand.

Evil originates in and proceeds from the heart. God did not work evil in their hearts in order to cause them to sin.

However, given God's perfect foreknowledge of all possible contigencies (both actual and potential) and His omnipotence and sovereignty over all things (such that nothing can occur outside His control), it is impossible for Him not to have ordained that sin.

That is to say, God knew with perfect certainty that given xyz conditions (all of which were under His sovereign control) Adam would choose to sin of his own free will, and that given a change in those circumstances Adam would have chosen of his own free will not to sin. And given that knowledge, He chose according to His greater purpose those circumstances which He knew with certainty would result in Adam sinning of his own free will.

At no time did God work evil in the heart of Adam in order to compel him to sin.

 

[eoe]

At no time did God work evil in the heart of Adam in order to compel him to sin.

He simply set up circumstances wherein Adam had absolutely no chance whatever of doing anything other than exactly what he did?

Can you explain how that is different? Explicitly setting someone up for failure (with no possible chance for any other outcome) vs working evil?

It seems that this is rapidly going against the article.

This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do.

Is putting mankind into a situation wherein he absolutely must do x not irresisable coercion? If God creates man and then gives man no option but to sin then is God not the author of sin?

I don't mean to argue I just want to understand where you percieve a difference.

 

[frumanchu]

Adam still had the moral ability and option to sin or not sin in the circumstances which God ordained. God did not coerce him into it, nor did He compel him to do it. The certainty that it will happen has more to do with epistemology than opportunity.

The key difference here is that between God purposing to make Adam sin and then trying to come up with a means to make it happen, and God considering all the contingent possibilities and choosing according to His own purpose to bring about the circumstances He had conceived of which resulted in Adam sinning.

The former is what the article speaks against.

The arguments you are making fall along the lines of those holding to a libertine form of free will whereby foreknowledge itself would somehow become a causal factor in that which is foreknown. If something is foreknown with certainty, then it cannot fail to come to pass. This is the result not of that foreknowledge being an efficient causal factor, but simply in the nature of foreknowledge and basic principles of logic. If that something failed to come to pass, it is impossible that it could have been certainly foreknown to come to pass.

 

[bradfordl]

I agree that the position promulgated by Sproul is logically incoherent. I hold to the "equal ultimacy" position, which some may call double predestinarian. That doesn't bother me in the least. God made no qualms with stating that He creates evil, search the scriptures. That in no way ascribes acts of evil to God, only that as Joseph said of his brothers, that they intended what they did for evil, but God for good.

Supra means over or before, infra means under or after. If God makes adjustments after events, then He is not sovereign over those events, which is not possible. Which is why I am supralapsarian.

 

[McWilliams]

Well, for me, God is either God over all or not God at all!
I agree that He had His purposes and as Bradford said it doesnt bother me at all. My job is to stay close to Him and avoid the evil. This article I find helpful by Piper.

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/suffering/god_and_evil.html

 

[frumanchu]

Supra means over or before, infra means under or after. If God makes adjustments after events, then He is not sovereign over those events, which is not possible. Which is why I am supralapsarian.

Not to quarrel with my brother, but speaking of logical incoherence....

The "supra" and "infra" refer to God's decree of the Fall, not the Fall itself. The infralapsarian position is NOT that God does not predestine men to salvation until after the Fall happens in real time. The infra position is that He decrees the Fall, and then proceeds to make the decree of election/reprobation in the context of His decree of the Fall.

The supralapsarian position makes the Fall itself a subordinate act to give material justification to God's prior decree of reprobation. The supralapsarian position is necessarily positive-positive because of this fact.

 

[bradfordl]

The "supra" and "infra" refer to God's decree of the Fall, not the Fall itself. The infralapsarian position is NOT that God does not predestine men to salvation until after the Fall happens in real time. The infra position is that He decrees the Fall, and then proceeds to make the decree of election/reprobation in the context of His decree of the Fall.

The supralapsarian position makes the Fall itself a subordinate act to give material justification to God's prior decree of reprobation. The supralapsarian position is necessarily positive-positive because of this fact.

Absolutely! There is no "and then". It is all just as He ordained before He began any of it. It is "positive-positive". All this dancing around with "passing over" & etc. is just struggling, unscripturally I believe, with the fact that God ordains evil. If God did not "want" evil to exist, it would not. That does not mean that He sins Himself. If I make a hammer, then give it to a carpenter to use, that does not make me a carpenter, even if I want the carpenter to build a house for me.

 

[UMP]

Is putting mankind into a situation wherein he absolutely must do x not irresisable coercion? If God creates man and then gives man no option but to sin then is God not the author of sin?

I don't mean to argue I just want to understand where you percieve a difference.

Author of sin, yes.
Guilty of sin, No!

"Should we be pressed further as to why God refused to exercise His power and prevent Adam's fall, we should say, Because Adam's fall better served His own wise and blessed purpose-among other things, it provided an opportunity to demonstrate that where sin had abounded grace could much more abound. But we might ask further: Why did God place in the garden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil when He foresaw that man would disobey His prohibition and eat of it; for mark, it was God and not Satan who made that tree. Should someone respond, Then is God the Author of Sin? We would have to ask, in turn, What is meant by "Author"? Plainly it was God's will that sin should enter this world otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission for God only permits that which He has purposed."

A.W. Pink

Regardless of whether we (this includes me) understands fully or not, God can and does create evil without being guilty of wrong doing (sin).
Here is the simple yet abasing (to man) bottom line:

Romans 9:
[13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
[14] What shall we say then? IS THERE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS with God? GOD FORBID.
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[eoe]

I have reached the conclusion that there is a variety of beliefs on this topic. It appears not to be a standardized thing so I am just going to accept that this is something that we disagree on and pray that God has mercy on us all. May he grant us all that which is beneficial to our souls.

agape,
-e

 

[Rick Otto]

I'd like to chime in...
It's Isaiah 45:7 where God says He creates evil.
There are many passages that say God is good.
This leads me to believe you are judging God by His actions, rather than His motives.
Am I correct?

 

[eoe]

I'd like to chime in...
It's Isaiah 45:7 where God says He creates evil.
There are many passages that say God is good.
This leads me to believe you are judging God by His actions, rather than His motives.
Am I correct?

ME JUDGE GOD? God forbid that I should ever even think such a thing. I can not even see my own sins - how am I to judge another - especially God? I simply wanted to understand your viewpoint - I am not passing judgement on anything. I do hope that I have not caused dissention here. If I have please forgive me.

[SIZE=+1]O Lord and Master of my life,
take from me the spirit of sloth, despondency,
lust of power, and idle talk;

But grant rather
the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love
to thy servant.

Yea, O Lord and King,
grant me to see my own transgressions,
and not to judge my brother;
for blessed art Thou unto the ages of ages.

Amen.[/SIZE]​

 

[JimfromOhio]

One thing I have learned is that God's will don't appear to be "logic". I have asked myself: "Mr Spock... let's look at this from the logic point of view"

What was God's will in Joseph life?

What was God's will for Corrie ten Boom?

What was God's will for Joni Tada?

What was God's will for Billy Graham?

God used people according to HIS will. In other words, my destiny is God's will, not mine. Learning from great faiths in the Bible and Christian history (Corrie ten Boom), I can see that circumstances did not control them; it is their reaction to circumstances that determined what kind of people they were and most importantly, how faithful they were.

I will use Corrie ten Boom's example. Greatest person I have learned is Corrie ten Boom who have suffered because she protected the Jewish people from the Nazi, not because of her Christian faith. She lost all of her family and she was the only one came out of Nazi prison alive due to clerical error through God's divine intervention. Through her examples, she explained to us how to survived through suffering as she did. Corrie took to her heart that when life is at its darkest, God is there for her always. He understood her pain and carried her though it by supplying grace because she remembered this verse in 2 Corinthians 12:9God said: "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." She understood that God was in control, even if she did not understand why her family was suffering. It was HER faith in God's grace that she was able endure her pain.

Like Corrie, we can place such faith in Him because of the assurance we have through His Word, even when we do not understand. Our true home and purpose is not here; it is still to come. We are not made for this world, we are just here to learn all we can, and with what Christ has given to us, make the best and most of the situations in which we find ourselves. Then, one day, we will be called to our true home in eternity, in Heaven. So, let us cling to the hope we have, not the things we experience! "Is there sufficient grace to help us in every issue of life?" Life is filled with difficulty. Life is filled with pain and sorrow and suffering. Bad things happen to everybody because we are living in a sinful world.

In sense of "torture", true faith is not the ability to superiorize unseen things to the satisfaction of our human minds, instead it is the human power to trust Christ completely. Basically understand what the Bible says what God's will and go from there. We don't know God's will specifically but we will know what directions we should be going.

God's will. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified (spiritual). 2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. Romans 8:27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

As for eternal death (torture). The moment we are born (physically), we have been living in eternal death (without Christ). You are spiritually saved by Grace with the gift of faith when convicted by the Holy Spirit and repent for the separation from God and made peace with our Creator we were once was far away. Through Adam, we are born spiritually dead. Through Jesus Christ, we are born-again spiritually. Romans 5:12 [ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. Unregenerated person means spiritually dead person. Sin is separation from God meaning spiritually dead facing eternal death. Born-again means spiritually alive facing eternal life.

Result of the fall:
Spiritually: Adam and Eve died since God broke away the relationship with them and kicked them out of Garden of Eden. Death is universal spiritually and also by nature. Physically we are born alive however spiritually dead. When we have Jesus Christ in our lives, we no longer spiritually dead but spiritually alive even though our physical body will continue to decay and will die someday.

A spiritually dead person cannot will himself to live anymore than a physically dead person can will himself to come back to life. If the dead person (spiritually or physically) is to come back to life he/she will have to be resurrected by God. In the spiritual realm this means he/she must be born from above. A spiritually dead person is without the Holy Spirit, therefore we do not have the "ability" to get saved on our own. We need the Holy Spirit to prick and quicken us to be alive. If you are damned, it's entirely your own fault, and not God's fault at all (though God controls everything). This is hard to understand, because sin is darkness and confusion. If you are saved, it's entirely God's doing, and not to your credit at all. All you did was responding to the Holy Spirit's conviction and He did the rest. There's no works involved. There's no measure of faith involved. Its a choice in matter of responding to the Holy Spirit's conviction in our hearts to be saved. Jesus said in John 16:8 "When He (Holy Spirit) comes, He will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment." Later in the New Testament, 1 Thessalonians 1:5 "because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction."

Therefore, those who have died without Christ have been living in torture without Christ. Those who have suffered with Christ have had GRACE in their lives. That's the biggest difference I see regarding God's plan for Salvation.

 

[heymikey80]

I agree that the position promulgated by Sproul is logically incoherent. I hold to the "equal ultimacy" position, which some may call double predestinarian. That doesn't bother me in the least. God made no qualms with stating that He creates evil, search the scriptures. That in no way ascribes acts of evil to God, only that as Joseph said of his brothers, that they intended what they did for evil, but God for good.

Supra means over or before, infra means under or after. If God makes adjustments after events, then He is not sovereign over those events, which is not possible. Which is why I am supralapsarian.

Umm, maybe I've misread Sproul, but here's what I've seen and agree with.

The basis for God's reprobation is not the same basis as His salvation. One's based on works, the other's based on grace. In that sense the two have different foundations. As for the positive/negative bit, were it not for the second decree of grace, all would fall (pun intended) under the same decree of reprobation. In that sense, the (positive) presence of God's grace on an individual predestines him to salvation; the (negative) absence of God's grace still predestines him to reprobation, because of the basis of works, which shall naturally and inevitably condemn the person.

 

[heymikey80]

Do you beleive that God creates people for the specific purpose of eternal torture? How does double predestination work? I am specifically interested in your view on the damned.
Thanks!

Well, it depends what you mean. Did God create people for the central reason and intent of torturing them for eternity? Well, no.

Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? Ezek 18:23
​

Nevertheless, God created people with the intent of showing His wrath on them publicly, and making His power known to all. That's not simply what Calvinists say, though: it's what Scripture says:

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? Rom 9:18-22
​

How could God do both, you might ask. Well, that's a good question. There're a half-dozen answers Calvinists have come up with. However, none tries to deny the two facts God desires the wicked to repent; and God prepares the wicked for destruction after His patient summons to repentance.