Herman Hoeksema

[Jon_]

mind blowing!

even the command to repent would be nullified by that construction , never mind the call to faith......

I leave this thread none the wiser.

I am off for a cup of tea , plenty of sugar , I feel faint.

Cyg, your continued caricaturization of my position is discouraging and insulting. I have said countless times before and you have read that I, Herman Hoeksema, and the PRC all affirm that all men are required to repent. I even said that just two posts ago. Why do you ignore these things and yet accuse me of rejecting the notion that men are commanded to repent? That's plainly dishonest.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JM]

Jon_, are you a PRC member?

 

[Jon_]

Jon_, are you a PRC member?

No. There are no PRC congregations within hundreds of miles of me, but needless to say, we are in agreement on many more points than we are in disagreement.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[cygnusx1]

Cyg, your continued caricaturization of my position is discouraging and insulting. I have said countless times before and you have read that I, Herman Hoeksema, and the PRC all affirm that all men are required to repent. I even said that just two posts ago. Why do you ignore these things and yet accuse me of rejecting the notion that men are commanded to repent? That's plainly dishonest.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I have said Preaching The Gospel is a call to all men to repent and believe on Christ , I supplied two Calvinist authors to show the point clearly , you responded that you believe the two authors were wrong , and then by contrast you quote a scripture to establish what the Gospel is ,, and I replied the quote doesn't mention faith or repentance ..... and you feel misrepresented ???

You have me , and I assume others , at a loss bro ...

As far as I can see The Gospel is the Good News , and this good news is not merely a declaration but a CALL to repentance and Faith in Christ with exceedingly great promises to those who do.

If you go through the Puritans (and Calvin Spurgeon and Pink) they all speak of the Gospel in terms of beseeching

and imploring men to have faith in Christ ..... only men such as Brine , Skepp and Hussey denied this warrant , ie, they denied duty faith .

My failing is that I have caused you to be feeling insulted , trust me that is not my intention .

As I said before I am none the wiser from your posts.

 

[Jon_]

I have said Preaching The Gospel is a call to all men to repent and believe on Christ , I supplied two Calvinist authors to show the point clearly , you responded that you believe the two authors were wrong , and then by contrast you quote a scripture to establish what the Gospel is ,, and I replied the quote doesn't mention faith or repentance ..... and you feel misrepresented ???

You said:

. . . even the command to repent would be nullified by that construction . . .

In response to me saying:

Here is the gospel, according to the Scriptures:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:1-3)
​

In other words, the gospel is, "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures."

In other words, you're saying that by me standing by the scriptural definition of the gospel (Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures) I have nullified the command to repent even though I have explicitly affirmed that all men are commanded to repent (Acts 17:30). Either you simply were not reading what I wrote and are guilty of lazily misrepresenting what I said or you are intentionally and deceitfully misrepresenting what I said.

You have me , and I assume others , at a loss bro ...

I would imagine that this reply will make things more clear.

As far as I can see The Gospel is the Good News , and this good news is not merely a declaration but a CALL to repentance and Faith in Christ with exceedingly great promises to those who do.

Then you need to examine the Scriptures again because you are seeing things that aren't there. The gospel is, "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures." There also happens to be a command that all men repent on believe on Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, these two things are not the same and that is precisely the error that you, the two authors you quoted, and countless other Christians make concerning the gospel and the call to repent (which are separate).

If you go through the Puritans (and Calvin Spurgeon and Pink) they all speak of the Gospel in terms of beseeching

and imploring men to have faith in Christ ..... only men such as Brine , Skepp and Hussey denied this warrant , ie, they denied duty faith .

My failing is that I have caused you to be feeling insulted , trust me that is not my intention .

As I said before I am none the wiser from your posts.

Those who describe the gospel as a message of beseeching misunderstand the gospel. The gospel is a declarative proclamation, not an imperative command or call. The gospel is the good news that Christ has died for the sins of all who believe in him. It is not, "Christ has died for your sins, so believe in him." As we know, Christ did not die for the sins of all; therefore, a gospel that proclaims he did so is a false gospel.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JM]

What do you think of this quote Jon:

In acts 17 : 30

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Was paul referring to all men without exception to repent ? Or did he have in mind the fulfillment of the abraham covenant, and was pertaining to the elect gentiles ? Notice :

8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

When you read scripture, the call to repentance appears to be almost always directed to the covenant people of God.

Read revelation and the call to repent seems to be exclusively to the church !

couple that with the fact that some men were obviously not called to repentance, observe:

Matthew 3


1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

John the baptist seems to me here to be excluding the call of repentance
in vs 2 to be for the pharisees and saducees in vs 7 !

Also finally, Jesus says :

32I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

We know that this does not mean everyone, but those who have been made spiritually alive ! So the inverse would be if not already spiritually alive , then the call to repentance is not for you...

 

[cygnusx1]

You said:


In response to me saying:


In other words, you're saying that by me standing by the scriptural definition of the gospel (Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures) I have nullified the command to repent even though I have explicitly affirmed that all men are commanded to repent (Acts 17:30). Either you simply were not reading what I wrote and are guilty of lazily misrepresenting what I said or you are intentionally and deceitfully misrepresenting what I said.

sorry for any ill feeling bro.
I think where the confusion has arisen is that when I stated the Gospel is a call to repent and trust in Christ , which is a genuine call to even the none -elect , you replied by quoting a scripture to show the Gospel isn't a call to sinners to believe on Christ , but instead is a declaration that Christ died for the elect .... my response was to underline that not only would that rule out the genuine call upon sinners to place their faith in Christ for salvation , but it would ALSO deny the thing you stated , God commands all to repent!

I would imagine that this reply will make things more clear.


Then you need to examine the Scriptures again because you are seeing things that aren't there. The gospel is, "Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures." There also happens to be a command that all men repent on believe on Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, these two things are not the same and that is precisely the error that you, the two authors you quoted, and countless other Christians make concerning the gospel and the call to repent (which are separate).

I have never read anyone who said that calling all men to Repent and have faith in Christ is NOT the Gospel or is not "preaching the Gospel" but is something else ..... are you saying that preaching Christ crucified for sinners and calling men to repent and have faith are not "preaching The Gospel " ?

If it is something else perhaps you could tell us what it is ? Don't tell me , let me guess it is "calling all men to Repent and have faith in Christ" .

Those who describe the gospel as a message of beseeching misunderstand the gospel. The gospel is a declarative proclamation, not an imperative command or call. The gospel is the good news that Christ has died for the sins of all who believe in him. It is not, "Christ has died for your sins, so believe in him." As we know, Christ did not die for the sins of all; therefore, a gospel that proclaims he did so is a false gospel.

seeing as I believe in definte atonement , and I don't and wouldn't describe "Christ has died for your sins, so believe in him." as the Gospel .... you have lost me ?

I think the bottom line is that when we preach to sinners and declare what God has done , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:1-3) we also call upon sinners to do something , to respond , to repent and believe on Christ ...... as far as I can see that is The Gospel , or that is "preaching the Gospel ".

I believe that the ministry of reconciliation is the work of God through us and is part of the Gospel .

2 Cor 5
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


btw Jon , what does the phrase "the call of the Gospel" mean if the Gospel is not a call ?

It may just be semantics ... maybe not , but how can men be saved by the preaching of The Gospel if the Gospel is merely a declaration of what God has done , they would then be saved by something other than the Gospel allowing that men were implored beseeched and commanded to repent and place their faith in Christ.

what do you make of this discussion Jon ?

Originally Posted by cygnusx1

as I have already said brother , being none -elect does not remove God's grace entirely , or God's love , even Ishmael and Esau were left with a blessing!

God can simply call all men to be saved , He opens His arms to all men , even reprobate Jews , and were it not for willfull unbeliefe they too would be saved along with the Elect! (Romans 11)

Some will say but God by not choosing some , gives them no opportunity , they are sentenced to hell by default ......... that is error!

There is no such thing as sentenced to hell UNLESS a person deserves , ie , has literally earned it by sin.

The door is wide open , whosover will may come !

quote=gusthemule "I know that's your view, and I respect it. and I respect Charles Spurgeon who you echo. But as you know, Calvinism can get alot darker and usually does. The pastor at a church I visited before I trusted Christ
told me that it might not be God's will to save me." quote

 

[cygnusx1]

Those who describe the gospel as a message of beseeching misunderstand the gospel. The gospel is a declarative proclamation, not an imperative command or call.




Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I have to smile at the irony here Jon , please forgive me , you defend the PRC except for their denial that God loves all men of course , and I have in my hand THE book penned by the present day leader of The PRC , David Engelsma whom I have met , and this book is called "Hyper Calvinism and The CALL OF THE GOSPEL"


It would seem that even the leader of the PRC is wrong in your judgment.

time for another strong cup of tea ....

 

[Jon_]

sorry for any ill feeling bro.
I think where the confusion has arisen is that when I stated the Gospel is a call to repent and trust in Christ , which is a genuine call to even the none -elect , you replied by quoting a scripture to show the Gospel isn't a call to sinners to believe on Christ , but instead is a declaration that Christ died for the elect .... my response was to underline that not only would that rule out the genuine call upon sinners to place their faith in Christ for salvation , but it would ALSO deny the thing you stated , God commands all to repent!

And that's why I said you're misrepresenting my view because saying the gospel is not a call to repentance IS NOT an explicit or implicit denial of the command that all repent. They are two distinctly separate propositions. That's why I responded the way I did. I was not at all confused about what you were saying.

I have never read anyone who said that calling all men to Repent and have faith in Christ is NOT the Gospel or is not "preaching the Gospel" but is something else ..... are you saying that preaching Christ crucified for sinners and calling men to repent and have faith are not "preaching The Gospel " ?

Preaching the gospel is often interwoven in with the command to repent. Christ has died to save sinners (1 Tim. 1:15) and we are commanded to bring this message to every corner of the earth. God has also commanded that all men repent, and this message we also bring, for to preach less than the whole counsel of God would be to break his commandment to us that we should do so. Even more, as John writes in his epistle,

If it is something else perhaps you could tell us what it is ? Don't tell me , let me guess it is "calling all men to Repent and have faith in Christ" .

Preaching the gospel is, quite plainly, that Christ has died for the sins of whosoever shall believe on him. But this is not the whole counsel of God. It is indeed good news (the greatest for sinners as us!), but God would have us know more than that we are saved by faith in Christ. No, the Bible teaches many more things, including how we ought to assail the deeds of the world and be a conduit for the conviction of the Holy Spirit on those who reject God.

seeing as I believe in definte atonement , and I don't and wouldn't describe "Christ has died for your sins, so believe in him." as the Gospel .... you have lost me ?

Oh, that part was not directed toward you. That is just how most "evangelicals" present the gospel and it is quite wrong. You did well to recognize the soteriological implications of it.

I think the bottom line is that when we preach to sinners and declare what God has done , how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. (1 Corinthians 15:1-3) we also call upon sinners to do something , to respond , to repent and believe on Christ ...... as far as I can see that is The Gospel , or that is "preaching the Gospel ".

That's just the thing. All that is usually referred to as "preaching the gospel" and that's why so many people are confused about what the gospel is. They think the gospel is, "Christ died for whosoever should believe in him (and that is the gospel), and God commands that you repent and believe in his Son (this is a command that is separate from the gospel)." So, what happens is that people tend to mix things up and misunderstand the purity of the gospel message, viz. that Christ has died that the elect might live.

I believe that the ministry of reconciliation is the work of God through us and is part of the Gospel .

2 Cor 5
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

btw Jon , what does the phrase "the call of the Gospel" mean if the Gospel is not a call ?

That depends. I'm not sure that I would use the phrase because it is so confused these days. To me, however, the phrase means that those who hear the gospel and are cut to the heart, feel compelled to heed the message and receive the counsel of God. Recall back to Acts 2 when Peter is preaching the gospel. The men, when they heard the good news (that Christ died to save his people from their sins (Matt. 1:21)), they were pricked to the heart and asked, "What shall we do?" To this Peter responded, repent and be baptized. This passage is probably one of the primary reasons people think that a call to repentance is part of the gospel, but why do not these same include baptism as a part of the gospel? No Calvinist I know of would say that one must also be baptized to respond to the gospel, yet many would assert that repentance is a part of the gospel. Neither of these are constituent parts of the gospel message. Rather, they are evidences of a saving faith, and good works as done according to the will of the Father, who commanded that we ought to observe them.

It may just be semantics ... maybe not , but how can men be saved by the preaching of The Gospel if the Gospel is merely a declaration of what God has done , they would then be saved by something other than the Gospel allowing that men were implored beseeched and commanded to repent and place their faith in Christ.

Men are quite obviously not saved by the preaching of the gospel. If the preaching of the gospel saved, we would be justified by works and not faith, for faith comes solely by the Holy Spirit according to the grace and will of God.

what do you make of this discussion Jon ?

Originally Posted by cygnusx1

as I have already said brother , being none -elect does not remove God's grace entirely , or God's love , even Ishmael and Esau were left with a blessing!

God can simply call all men to be saved , He opens His arms to all men , even reprobate Jews , and were it not for willfull unbeliefe they too would be saved along with the Elect! (Romans 11)

Some will say but God by not choosing some , gives them no opportunity , they are sentenced to hell by default ......... that is error!

There is no such thing as sentenced to hell UNLESS a person deserves , ie , has literally earned it by sin.

The door is wide open , whosover will may come !

quote=gusthemule "I know that's your view, and I respect it. and I respect Charles Spurgeon who you echo. But as you know, Calvinism can get alot darker and usually does. The pastor at a church I visited before I trusted Christ
told me that it might not be God's will to save me." quote

The pastor was right. It might not have been God's will to save him; nevertheless, that is not necessarily always the right thing to say to someone. I have told people that before where it is warranted because to do otherwise would be to hide the biblical truth from them. I could not stomach such a deception. My counsel to them as to what they should do was that they should read the scriptures and pray to God for grace and mercy. As Jesus said, search the scriptures, for in them you have life eternal.

As for your statement to the poster, you already know the division that lies between us regarding the "genuine offer," so in the interest of peace, I'll not get into that.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon