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Herm-Sexuality

hernyaccent

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Do you think

the parents of a hermaphrodite should choose to remove or alter the organs of a child at a young age?

it is morally acceptable for the child to have a sex change once they have reached adulthood due to the fact they felt their parents choose wrong?

a hermaphrodite should be allowed to marry any sex they choose to?
 

Maynard Keenan

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This is the kicker for the homosexuality debate. What sex are they? Often a hermaphrodite has developed parts of both sexes but is infertile as a male and as a female. Do they just get to pick? Can they change their mind? From the anti-gay perspective I don't know how to answer other than obviously God hates them and they should be shot </sarcasm>. From my perspective, let them choose, operations are moral both for the parent choosing at birth or the person choosing later. They basically choose to be male or female, and thats not necessarily a life-long constant.
 
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cabbitgrrrl

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hernyaccent said:
Do you think

the parents of a hermaphrodite should choose to remove or alter the organs of a child at a young age?

it is morally acceptable for the child to have a sex change once they have reached adulthood due to the fact they felt their parents choose wrong?

a hermaphrodite should be allowed to marry any sex they choose to?

I personally feel it is morally unacceptable for the parents to decide which sex it will be, there is a big chance they will be wrong and will make life harder for the kid than it already is

and of course they should be able to change their sex and marry any sex
 
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hernyaccent

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Maynard Keenan said:
From the anti-gay perspective I don't know how to answer other than obviously God hates them and they should be shot </sarcasm>.
Let's see what those who are "anti-gay" come up with to answer the questions YOU have put forward. I agree with you 110%. Your perspective is great.
 
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TXXIAN

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I done some research on this topic in the past. I could not find a single example of a person that was a full developed (both functual sex organs). What I found out is that in the extremely race instances of hermaphroditism (sp), one set of organs will develop while the other diminishes.

So, I think that God usually settles the issue, and there is no need for surgery, by the parent or the individual.

TXXIAN
 
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merryheart

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TXXIAN said:
I done some research on this topic in the past. I could not find a single example of a person that was a full developed (both functual sex organs). What I found out is that in the extremely race instances of hermaphroditism (sp), one set of organs will develop while the other diminishes.

So, I think that God usually settles the issue, and there is no need for surgery, by the parent or the individual.

TXXIAN

That's pretty naive... Even Jesus spoke of those who are "born eunuchs"

Matthew 19:12 said:
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
 
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hernyaccent

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TXXIAN said:
I done some research on this topic in the past. I could not find a single example of a person that was a full developed (both functual sex organs). What I found out is that in the extremely race instances of hermaphroditism (sp), one set of organs will develop while the other diminishes.

So, I think that God usually settles the issue, and there is no need for surgery, by the parent or the individual.

TXXIAN
Can you produce an article or two that agree with your statement

"I done some research on this topic in the past. I could not find a single example of a person that was a full developed (both functual sex organs). "

?


Hermaphrodite : This is a natural condition that occurs in some rare cases; We here use this term for someone who has been born with the distinguishing features of both sexes; they will have a male genital and a female genital. Some have breasts and female features, that would otherwise pass as a woman in every respect; attractive features, feminine features, full breasts etc. Others have male and female genitals but have a male demenor; facial hair, broad shoulders, large hands and feet etc., these are still more rare.

or in simple terms

1) hermaphrodite – an infant born with both ovaries and testicles and has both male and female sex organs.

The defination of the word has nothing to do with FULL development.

Perhaps your research was on female and male pseudohermaphrodites because that is very different from a hermaphrodite.

2) female pseudohermaphrodite – a genetic female with male external sex organs. 3) male pseudohermaphrodite – genetic male with external sex organs that fail to develop properly, resulting in female or male/female physical characteristics.

There are cases where operations are preformed needed or not...


http://www.libidomag.com/nakedbrunch/archive/hermaphrodites.html

http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Gender/intersexuals/stories_hammond.htm

There are obvisously doctors,parents and intersex individuals themselves who have taken part in this surgury....

http://www.nocirc.org/intersexed/


Explain these cases please.
 
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morningstar2651

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hernyaccent said:
Do you think

the parents of a hermaphrodite should choose to remove or alter the organs of a child at a young age?

it is morally acceptable for the child to have a sex change once they have reached adulthood due to the fact they felt their parents choose wrong?

a hermaphrodite should be allowed to marry any sex they choose to?
I say leave them as they are born. It's not as simple as Male & Female...there are different genders inbetween.

Altering their body will not alter their mind.
 
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cabbitgrrrl

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TXXIAN said:
I done some research on this topic in the past. I could not find a single example of a person that was a full developed (both functual sex organs). What I found out is that in the extremely race instances of hermaphroditism (sp), one set of organs will develop while the other diminishes.

So, I think that God usually settles the issue, and there is no need for surgery, by the parent or the individual.

TXXIAN

actually I have met some people who the organs did not diminish in and their parents basically screwed them over

btw, just because their physical gender is decided does not mean that the mental one is, otherwise there wouldn't be a need for the surgery later in life at all
 
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morningstar2651

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As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl
In 1967, after a twin baby boy suffered a botched circumcision, his family agreed to a radical treatment that would alter his gender. The case would become one of the most famous in modern medicine -- and a total failure. As Nature Made Him tells the extraordinary story of David Reimer, who, when finally informed of his medical history, made the decision to live as a male. A macabre tale of medical arrogance, it is first and foremost a human drama of one man's -- and one family's -- amazing survival in the face of terrible odds.
 
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mpshiel

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a) David Riemer was the cause of botched circumcison, not intersex condition and all it proved was that gender identity is hardwired or at least stronger than mere environment.

b) Try searching under intersex, intersex conditions, ambigious genitalia instead of hermaphrodite. There are at last count 6 living fully functional hermaphrodites. Intersex and ambigious genetialia is however a fairly common medical condition (About 1 in 2000 births). It is likely that you know someone who has had an intersex condition. However, due to the intense shame and social misunderstanding of what intersex condition actually is, many go to great lengths to hide it (as often intersex is misinterpreted as transsexual - and since more than twice as many transsexuals were killed in hate crimes in North America last year than gay, lesbian, bisexual, racial and religious hate crime murders combined that might give you an idea of why someone might not want to be mistakenly linked which such a group - or another stat example - Your chance of being killed in Canada last year= 1 in 400,000; your chance of being killed last year if you were a transsexual-1 in 150)

Doctors used to "assign" gender at birth, except that the overwhelming amount of evidence in case studies has show that gender identity has at least a strong biological factor if not entirely hardwired (as was demonstrated in the Oct-Nov issue of Molecular Brain Science 2003). Now, many doctors will register the child as I instead of M or F and wait until a clear gender identity is demonstrated before making surgical decisions.

Still, due to the varied nature of different intersex condition it is not always that easy. For instance in one condition, the body is complete incapable of accepting testosterone, which no one knows until the "boy" hits puberty and starts growing breasts (As estrogen production is uninhibited) as well as no adams apple or genital development. In another case, a "faux" male genital may actually hide a recessed real male genital set which doesn't become apparent until 13 when the "girl" suddenly produces testosterone, has thier voice drop and grows facial hair.

Still other cases have involved testosterone insensitive, genital ambigious babies who have been judged females with certain parts of the genitals enlarged, or even have "faux" female genitals and only find out that they are genetically male when going to the doctors to find out why they aren't getting pregnant (not to mention the 8 years without a period).

Lisa from Swansea, down the road, was a misdiagnosed intersex person, you may have heard her sing on Galaxy Quest or Lord of the Rings. The doctors misdiagnosed her as being male with testosterone insensitive with an estrogen imbalance. Which caused them to pump her with more and more testosterone in teenage years, giving very premature male-pattern baldness, strong jaw and other facial features. Then at 17, she was reassessed and was found to be biologically female. She accepted the female identity as the doctors were the ones that were trying to make her male. Of course, the testosterone has given her an EIGHT octave range but a body which appears both male and female.

Even then, there are other cases where even the chromosomes are unclear as one internal organ will show female chromosomes while others show male.

If we accept that the spirit, the mind and the consciousness - that which seperates humans from other animals, is the core of "who we are" then correcting gender irregularities or body/brain confusions through medical means seems the best possible solution. No one doubts that a woman who has had her breast taken over by cancer cells, needed to be removed and reconstructed is any less a woman than before, or a woman who is sterile or has had a complete hysterectomy is somehow a 1/2 woman. Therefore, it seems silly to me to view corrective surgery or hormone treatment as anything but a blessing for those who live in today's modern age.

For those who worry or get upset about "changing what God has created" then I suggest you take out your rage on diabetics who in any major catastrophe will be dead very soon due to the modern processed needed to aquire thier insulin. Or perhaps start trying to invalidate the help given to the millions of women already on hormones due to severe problems regarding their period or menopause.

As for this "who can and who can't marry" - it is all starting to sound a bit Third Riech when everyone is so worried about the "impurity" of improper mating that legal and moral determinations need to be made lest the "wrong" people join together. Do you really think God is writhing in the Heavens because assuming God considers gender important at all, that a few people might have a different view of someone gender than God does and they get married without some sort of Christian Morality Police getting a divine message to stop such a thing from happening?

Can we work on the homeless, hungry and abused first please and come back to this when we have solved those problems?
 
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hernyaccent

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morningstar2651 said:
As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl
In 1967, after a twin baby boy suffered a botched circumcision, his family agreed to a radical treatment that would alter his gender. The case would become one of the most famous in modern medicine -- and a total failure. As Nature Made Him tells the extraordinary story of David Reimer, who, when finally informed of his medical history, made the decision to live as a male. A macabre tale of medical arrogance, it is first and foremost a human drama of one man's -- and one family's -- amazing survival in the face of terrible odds.
I read this in a psychology class last semester but he was born male so I couldnt really use that as an arguement. However its a good arguement about sexuality choice because no matter what they couldn't change his mind about liking women.
 
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hernyaccent

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mpshiel said:
Can we work on the homeless, hungry and abused first please and come back to this when we have solved those problems?

There are thousands of organizations both secular and religious fighting for those things each day. I believe there are other agendas that need to be focused on.
 
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cabbitgrrrl

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morningstar2651 said:
As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl
In 1967, after a twin baby boy suffered a botched circumcision, his family agreed to a radical treatment that would alter his gender. The case would become one of the most famous in modern medicine -- and a total failure. As Nature Made Him tells the extraordinary story of David Reimer, who, when finally informed of his medical history, made the decision to live as a male. A macabre tale of medical arrogance, it is first and foremost a human drama of one man's -- and one family's -- amazing survival in the face of terrible odds.

its amazing how medical insurance companies and many governments still get away with discriminating against trans and intersex people despite the amount of evidence that gender identity is hardwired
 
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Isis-Astoroth

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I used to talk online to a woman who had been born a hermaphrodite and chose to have her male genitals removed in her twenties. She told me that, though adolescence was hard, it allowed her to find out what gender she felt she was. If her parents had chosen to have her female parts removed, what would she be now, but a woman stuck in a mans body? Let the person decide when they are older because the parents don't know the mind of their child.
 
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