Heretics / Non-Trinitarians

[True Believer]

He can't be a scholar Der Alter stated many times that no one who knows Hebrew or Greek could be a Jehovahs Witness. ZeO is just asking him to prove things instead of always pasting things he finds on webpages and trying to make something out of them that they do NOT say. I have dealt with this style for a year and with the insults to me and my knowledge not because I didn't know But I have no web Info to prove my points to his satisfaction. Now someone who does have the knowledge and the resources is asking him to back up what he has been making claims about for an entire year and he now feels abused . What do you think the rest of us put up with for that year it has only been a little over a week since ZeO first posted. ZeO doesn't have anything to prove to either myself or any of the other few JWs here that is definately not his purpose as Der Alter claims. He is asking Der to back up his claims just as Der has always asked everyone else to do. Is it not proper to expect one who is always saying "prove it" to now "prove it" ?
If Der can Not then he can just say so can't he.
Agape' to you Debi, TB

 

[Der Alte]

He can't be a scholar Der Alter stated many times that no one who knows Hebrew or Greek could be a Jehovahs Witness.

This is a deliberate, base, contemptible falsehood. Prove this statement.

ZeO is just asking him to prove things instead of always pasting things he finds on webpages and trying to make something out of them that they do NOT say.

No he is posturing and blustering for all the JWs and they all think he is saying something. He is asking garbage questions about things I never mentioned, but of course all the sycophants just march along in lock step without conscious thought. If someone wants to address what I post I will discuss it.

He is asking Der to back up his claims just as Der has always asked everyone else to do. Is it not proper to expect one who is always saying "prove it" to now "prove it" ?
If Der can Not then he can just say so can't he.

No he is not asking me to back up my claims. He is just ranting on and on about any trash thing he can think of associated with the cabala and Zohar. He has never once addressed what I actually posted. Any pied piper who blusters and throws around a few theological terms can impress the JWs, it doesn’t take much.

 

[Debi1967]

He can't be a scholar Der Alter stated many times that no one who knows Hebrew or Greek could be a Jehovahs Witness. ZeO is just asking him to prove things instead of always pasting things he finds on webpages and trying to make something out of them that they do NOT say. I have dealt with this style for a year and with the insults to me and my knowledge not because I didn't know But I have no web Info to prove my points to his satisfaction. Now someone who does have the knowledge and the resources is asking him to back up what he has been making claims about for an entire year and he now feels abused . What do you think the rest of us put up with for that year it has only been a little over a week since ZeO first posted. ZeO doesn't have anything to prove to either myself or any of the other few JWs here that is definately not his purpose as Der Alter claims. He is asking Der to back up his claims just as Der has always asked everyone else to do. Is it not proper to expect one who is always saying "prove it" to now "prove it" ?
If Der can Not then he can just say so can't he.
Agape' to you Debi, TB

You know TB, I do have respect for you, because when you deal with me you give it and when I ask for information You give it....
You cannot expect anyone to blindly accept your words as true until they are backed up with proof...You will see all over these forums that those that substantiate their claims are the more respected members of the forums because they do offer the proof...
I go out of my way at times when I need to taking hours of my time to research things and to find the proof necessary. You should see what my my favorites looks like, it is like surfing the web sometimes to surf through it to find the pages I need.
I go out of my way when dealing with sola scripturists to stick to scripture because I know that they respect that...I, IOWs, do what is necessary to gain the respect of the other person so that my words here have an impact...I use my own personal experiences in my life and I share them with others so that they are able to see that I can relate to them, and thus the walls can come down....

I do whatever it takes to get the message across...that is my job...I do not expect that it is the other person's job to automatically understand or see my points or to even trust me....especially when they believe something other than what I believe.

What I have learned is that on these forums and in life you have all types of individuals...You have some that will easily accept what you say because they are so ready for it, but then you have others too that are looking but due to reasons unknown have a harder time just accepting without the constant proof in front of their face...I have learned that with some it is sometimes quickly and with others sometimes slowly, and you must be able to have the patience to endure...I have also related this to many other things like my own spirituality....I was one that needed constant proof and one that was sometimes slowly, very slowly in fact, but I also realize too that this also has prepared me and continues to prepare me for when I will be tested in the end because I will be able to endure as I am going to need to do under much aggression. I will be able to stand the test because I am constantly being tested now....I am constantly testing now and enduring...

TB our times and the tests that we will have to endure will not get better but only worse....we all need to be prepared for what is to come and we must be prepared to stand in the middle of it all and still choose Him above all else....How do we do this? We put ourselves out there now and challenge ourselves everyday to do that very same thing and with every day we get stronger because of it....we do not hide from it..we do not put ourselves away from it and separate ourselves ....we jump in and spread the message we live amongst them ...we love our neighbor whether they are Christian or not as ourselves and we stand up for Him first and foremost.......

Agape'
Debi

 

[ZeOvadhYahu]

Now you are haggling to get out of something because you asked for the info and it has been given....now that it has been given your only choice is to attack what even the Jewish Encyclopedia says...now that is ludicrous....

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> What exactly do you think I am trying to get out of Debi? The questions I asked were answered already? Where? If what you say is true then please share with me the anwer to : "Which Sect of Judaism did it stem from Der Alter, if I may ask?"
This same question has been repeated many times. Can you provide for us an instance of where this was answered please?

You are making Der Alter run in circles after things that you know are very hard to research...and what you have failed to tell is that you are a scholar in all of this which gives you the advantage to begin with....

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>>Very hard to reseach? I am not the one who claimed arrogantly these words below to others am I Debi?
Notice below please:

Now all that may sound real good to those who are not informed and don't know any better.

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> Now in all honesty and truthfullness Debiwebi did I make any type of claims like those quoted above? It is obvious from the statement quoted above Der Alter is "Informed" and knows better than most. All I ask is to discuss the issues from his own perspective and from his own knowledge. Am I wrong for this somehow?

Do you want to know what I think I think that you think that if you keep challenging him he will go away, and if you keep sounding as though you have the upper hand then others will take it as though he has been defeated by you. Instead what they are not seeing is that most of the questions you are asking are truly useless aren't they? OH And before you answer that remember be truthful.... Debi

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> I am always truthful, aren't you? If in fact my questions are useless then why all of the run around? You see Debi the conclusion of this argument/discussion is actually a major one. I appreciate you sharing what you "think" with me. May I tell you what I think now also? I think this post was actually irrelevant to the topic.
However, I do appreciate your thoughts to me.

With thanks,
Zeh'OvadhYahu

 

[ZeOvadhYahu]

No he is posturing and blustering for all the JWs and they all think he is saying something. He is asking garbage questions about things I never mentioned, but of course all the sycophants just march along in lock step without conscious thought. If someone wants to address what I post I will discuss it.

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> Well in actuality, I am saying something! I am commenting about something you sir, have been writing about. I am not posturing or blustering at all. How does one discuss anything here with you Der Alter, if they are not allowed to ask you questions? If I ask questions regarding that which you have obviously been posting and claiming to be in the know about, then it is considered posturing and blustering? If one takes this into account, then there would never been any real legitimate discussion. Why? because the other party would claim that because he was questioned then the person must be posturing only, as well as blustering! How absurd!

In reality, I think the one who is merely a posturer would not truly wish to dive into an indepth discussion, because he might only have slight knowledge of that, which he has claimed to be "Informed" in and in the Know of. Just a thought.

He says "if someone wants to address what I post I will discuss it." I have been trying to do just that and because of this I now personally attacked. i.e, Instead of addressing the post and the subject/topic, my very person and character is attacked. I find this very rude to say the least!

No he is not asking me to back up my claims. He is just ranting on and on about any trash thing he can think of associated with the cabala and Zohar. He has never once addressed what I actually posted. Any pied piper who blusters and throws around a few theological terms can impress the JWs, it doesn’t take much.

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> Still not addressing the subject/topic at all only making generalized attacks of others. I am asking you Der Alter, to prove that which you have been pasting. Prove to me that the Trinity comes from Ancient Judaism. I suppose this is to much to ask. I guess we should just accpet your assertions and your copied and pasted material as truth because if anyone questions you, they are immediately attacked and labeled as a posturer and blusterer.

I have one request and I will not post or ask this again of you.
If you do not wish to personally discuss your own views in regard to Zohar then simply tell me now! It is really just that simply, no need for the character assassinations and other rubbish at all. I will repect your right.

With thanks,
ZeOvadhYahu

 

[ZeOvadhYahu]

ZeO is just asking him to prove things instead of always pasting things he finds on webpages and trying to make something out of them that they do NOT say. I have dealt with this style for a year and with the insults to me and my knowledge not because I didn't know But I have no web Info to prove my points to his satisfaction. Now someone who does have the knowledge and the resources is asking him to back up what he has been making claims about for an entire year and he now feels abused . What do you think the rest of us put up with for that year it has only been a little over a week since ZeO first posted. ZeO doesn't have anything to prove to either myself or any of the other few JWs here that is definately not his purpose as Der Alter claims. He is asking Der to back up his claims just as Der has always asked everyone else to do. Is it not proper to expect one who is always saying "prove it" to now "prove it" ?
If Der can Not then he can just say so can't he.
Agape' to you Debi, TB

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> TB I appreciate your stance in behalf of me. Your words could not be clearer if I had said them myself.

With abundant thanks,
Zeh'OvadhYahu

 

[Serapha]

Hi,

I am new here, and I want to know a little bit about the people here. The first thing I wanted to know is if I am going to be overwhelmingly out-numbered in here, as far as the subject of Christ's nature is.

I am non-trinitarian, and if the non-trintarians aboard could only say something to let me know that they are non-trinitarians, that would be good enough.

Thank you all!
Blessings!

Hi there!



~serapha~ here.... I thought I recognized that moniker from another forum....

Welcome to Christianforums.

I think you will like it here... there is not as much liberty as on the other forum where you frequent, and where I used to post... those that regularly post on that other forum would be banned here in about 5 postings...

(Iris tried it here, but she didn't last more than about 10 postings)


I think you will find that people here are much more civil... and oh yeah...


Address issues, not people...

~serapha~

 

[Serapha]

He can't be a scholar Der Alter stated many times that no one who knows Hebrew or Greek could be a Jehovahs Witness. ZeO is just asking him to prove things instead of always pasting things he finds on webpages and trying to make something out of them that they do NOT say. I have dealt with this style for a year and with the insults to me and my knowledge not because I didn't know But I have no web Info to prove my points to his satisfaction. Now someone who does have the knowledge and the resources is asking him to back up what he has been making claims about for an entire year and he now feels abused . What do you think the rest of us put up with for that year it has only been a little over a week since ZeO first posted. ZeO doesn't have anything to prove to either myself or any of the other few JWs here that is definately not his purpose as Der Alter claims. He is asking Der to back up his claims just as Der has always asked everyone else to do. Is it not proper to expect one who is always saying "prove it" to now "prove it" ?
If Der can Not then he can just say so can't he.
Agape' to you Debi, TB

True Believer,



You might be interested on a posting on the "suggestions" forum where I posted asking for accountability from another member... and I was told a variety of statements concerning accountability.


http://www.christianforums.com/t706820



~serapha~

 

[btony]

He can't be a scholar Der Alter stated many times that no one who knows Hebrew or Greek could be a Jehovahs Witness.

Now this is funny, in light of the fact that I know JWs who teach these languages at the college level.

 

[Debi1967]

No the problem in a nutshell is that when proof is given in many instances it is dismissed summarily as unfactual and posting "untruths", funny but that is not so when it supports your claims but only when it supports ours....

I was looking at both sides of the issue before I had to call for yet another thread closure...I was actually enjoying the discussion between Der and ZeO it was actually very informative...and it kept flowing too at a nice rate...with me being able to see both sides and do the research on both sides...then it turned into a free for all...And the whole thing started to get very stupid in my opinion for what it is worth....The truth as I saw it was that neither side was willing to give an inch. So it started with one attacking and then the other reacting to the attack and attacking back....

Now that is not condusive to anyone.....

Pax Christi
Debi

 

[True Believer]

Now this is funny, in light of the fact that I know JWs who teach these languages at the college level.

I know, it was ludicris when he came up with it but we posted the number of Greek Jehovah's Witnesses and had to read some more put downs for posting that information also. I think it a bit amusing (also educational) to see ZeO pointing to how the language is not only used but constructed as well.

I am glad it tickled you too!, Philia TB

 

[Der Alte]

My post,
The Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did NOT originate with Christians and has absolutely nothing to do with the relationship between Christians and Judaism.

The Trinity originated in Judaism, before the Christian era. Check this article from The Jewish Encyclopedia, published in 1910.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Trinity-In the Zohar.

The Cabala, on the other hand, especially the Zohar, its fundamental work, was far less hostile to the dogma of the Trinity, since by its speculations regarding the father, the son, and the spirit it evolved a new trinity, and thus became dangerous to Judaism. Such terms as "mattronita," "body," "spirit," occur frequently (e.q., "Tazria'," ed. Polna, iii. 43b); so that Christians and converts like Knorr von Rosenroth, Reuchlin, and Rittangel found in the Zohar a confirmation of Christianity and especially of the dogma of the Trinity (Jellinek, "Die Kabbala," p. 250, Leipsic, 1844 [trans]. of Franck's "La Kabbale," Paris, 1843]). Reuchlin sought on the basis of the Cabala the words "Father, Son, and Holy Ghost" in the second word of the Pentateuch, as well as in Ps. cxviii. 22 (ib. p. 10), while Johann Kemper, a convert, left in manuscript a work entitled "Matteh Mosheh," which treats in its third section of the harmony of the Zohar with the doctrine of the Trinity (Zettersteen, "Verzeichniss der Hebraischen und Aramaischen Handschriften zu Upsala," p. 16, Lund, 1900). The study of the Cabala led the Frankists to adopt Christianity; but the Jews have always regarded the doctrine of the Trinity as one irreconcilable with the spirit of the Jewish religion and with monotheism. See Christianity in Its Relation to Judaism; Polemics.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=338&letter=T

Jewish Encyclopedia-Zohar

They were led to this belief by the analogies existing between some of the teachings of the Zohar and certain of the Christian dogmas, as for instance the fall and redemption of man, and the dogma of the Trinity, . . .This [The Trinity] and also the other doctrines of Christian tendency that are found in the Zohar are now known to be much older than Christianity;

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=Z​

Der Alter in your quoted texts above are you claiming that the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit originated with Judaism? Yes or No?

I am claiming exactly what the article I quoted stated, “the Zohar, its [the Cabala] fundamental work, was far less hostile to the dogma of the Trinity, since by its speculations regarding the father, the son, and the spirit it evolved a new trinity”

Which sect of Judaism did it stem from Der Alter, if I may ask?

Irrelevant anything not specifically mentioned in the article I quoted is a smoke screen. Discuss the article and what I said about it. It might also help if you went back and actually read my post and the post I was responding to for the context of my response.

Did they are even Ha Sefer Zohar teach that One Being (God) was made up of Three Persons? If so, what was the name that each of these "Persons" were called according to Ha Sefer Zohar? In this I would like to be "informed" also please.

I don’t know and I don’t care. Irrelevant to my post. This is the posturing, stick to what I posted and what I said. And OBTW just to clear up this posturing. The statement I made about being informed was to another member, in a different context, over six months before you joined the forum. If you want to keep posturing about that remember it has no relevance to you or our discussion.

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> So the dogma of the Trinity was based on "SPECULATIONS"?
Speculations from what exactly Der Alter? Could you elaborate for me on this issue? What exactly does the word "Speculation" mean?

Do you need help finding the word speculation in the dictionary? You made the false claim in another thread that the Trinity was “Hellenic Greek and Latin speculation.” You seemed to know what it meant then. I can understand if you are too ashamed or embarrassed to admit that you can’t back this up although I have asked you to do so repeatedly. Also the word “evolved” was used in that sentence.

This is more of the posturing, pretending that you have all these questions that I can’t or won’t answer while you shuck and jive and totally ignore this question. I have correctly quoted your exact words and unlike you I have asked you questions specifically about what you posted not a lot of unrelated nonsense.

In the above quote it says that "in the Zohar a confirmation of Christianity and especially of the dogma of the Trinity."

Does this mean that you, Der Alter feel that the Occultic Mysticism Book of Splendor is a true legtimate confirmation of your own Trinitarian beliefs? (This is a question)

Here is more of the bluster and posturing. There is nothing mentioned about any, “Occultic Mysticism Book of Splendor,” in my post or anything I quoted. I don’t think I personally used the word “confirmation,” anywhere. That is really irrelevant to my post. If you actually read my post and if you have relevant questions about what I actually said, we might have a discussion. But I doubt that is going to happen.

I would like to ask you, would you consider Ha Sefer Zohar to be an Inspired Book like that of the Bible itself? If no, then why? Please explain.

Irrelevant to my use of the Jewish Encyclopedia. What is the context of my reference to the Jewish Encyclopedia?

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> Is that really the case?
So, Zohar is much older than Christianity?

That is not what the article says.

Could you please tell me what date the book of Zohar was fully composed? Who was the Author of this book?

Irrelevant to my use of the quote. Why don’t you try reading what I actually said, what the article actually says and respond to that. If I thought that this was all a misunderstanding I would have explained it some time ago, but you are evidently asking question to muddy the water not understand what I was saying.

If infact, your "inform" ation is correct above then we should have no problem finding the teachings of Zohar throughout the Hebrew (Old Testament) Sacred Passages of Scripture right?

More posturing and blustering. I did not say anything to even hint this, neither did the article I quoted. Read my post and the context.

Could you "Inform" me as to where in the Bible I can find the words- Sefirot and Sefirotim please?

More bluster and posturing. I have never mentioned the sefirot(im) and those sections of the articles, I quoted, didn’t either. The purpose here is to make it appear to the sycophants that I don’t know that I am talking about and said something I did not say or imply. I will not get sucked into your little game. Read my post, everything relevant is right there, then if you want to discuss it that, I will discuss. Maybe you can find something in the other 11 volumes of the Jewish Encyclopedia with which you can further muddy the water.

Since you seem to prescribe to the teachings of Zohar as being that of a Trinity consisting of The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit could you please tell me the names/titles of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and what their specific roles where in the Zoharic teachings please?

Irrelevant, not discussed in the article and has nothing to do with what I said. I think the word you meant to use was “subscribe” but I don’t do either one.

 

[Der Alte]

He can't be a scholar Der Alter stated many times that no one who knows Hebrew or Greek could be a Jehovahs Witness.

Now this is funny, in light of the fact that I know JWs who teach these languages at the college level.

Funny? No, the accusation is a deliberate base falsehood. I never said anything like that.

 

[coyoteBR]

Hello, Karaite. Blessings and welcome.

Count me as another non-trinaritan

 

[lared]

Cut and paste.
Cut and paste.

 

[ZeOvadhYahu]

[Edited by a moderator]

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> I appreciate your statement above JesseDance. It is nice to see that there are those who can read these posts and comprehend the magnitude and seriousness of them. I have made my position clear and asked specific questions in regard to it.

To repeat my position and repost my questions would be redundant and lead only to more braggadocio circlings.

I have commited myself before all, However, no other commitments have been made here. Unless we have another commitment I can only assume the Subject/Topic is closed.

It is no wonder, even the ECF did not hold to the teachings of Jewish Mysticism. The Ophites, Mandeans and various others spoken of on that web-link were all considered Heretics by the ECF.

Thanks to all who read and disgest these posts with all seriousness in mind!

With respect,
Zeh'OvadhYahu

 

[audramray]

I'm a non-trinitarian as well. I believe in the Almighty God and Jesus Christ His Son, who was the Word. The Holy Spirit, I believe, is the essence of God.

 

[True Believer]

I guess I am missing something here?

Is Dr Alter saying the Trinity came from Judaism?
Is the branch of Judaism he says it comes from the ones who agree with the Book of Zohar.
Since the Book of Zohar is an Occult/ Mysticism book and he connects it to the Trinity doctrine as the basis for the Trinity doctrine is he not saying that the Trinity doctrine stems from the Judeo Occult
I mean I finally found something I can agree on with DA for once. I am Amazed
Agape',TB

I knew all of that anger came from somewhere, now I know where.

 

[jessedance]

the zohar is only 2000 years old. it originated at the time of christ. it is no proof that juadism was trinitarian.

Zohar is a Hebrew word that means splendor. In its simplest form, the Zohar is a commentary on the Bible, structured as conversations among a group of friends, scholars, and spiritual masters. Although the wisdom available in its pages is older than Creation itself, the text of the Zohar was composed approximately 2000 years ago. It was then that the great Kabbalist Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai revealed the Zohar to his student, Rabbi Abba who transcribed it in the ancient language of Aramaic. In the centuries that followed, the Zohar was often suppressed by religious and secular authorities who feared its power to transform the lives of those who gained access to the sacred writings. The sages of Kabbalah, too, realized that the Zohar must wait until humankind was ready to receive it.

http://www.kabbalah.com/k/index.php/p=zohar/about?PHPSESSID=61ffdcf94504315f4f377ffe2f21e8bf

So all this argument about the Zohar predefining trinity is groundless.

Today, in an era of rapid change and breakthrough technologies, we are able to accept ideas that were once seen as inexplicable mysticism or dangerous sorcery. The Zohar deals very directly with concepts of reincarnation, visionary experiences, and the presence of unseen influences in our midst -- and now, at the start of the 21st century, we have the capacity to understand the Zohar's teachings and receive its soul. This is a difficult experience to describe, but by bringing the Zohar into your life, you will discover its meaning for yourself.

http://www.kabbalah.com/k/index.php/p=zohar/about?PHPSESSID=61ffdcf94504315f4f377ffe2f21e8bf Reincarnation, sorcery, trinitarianism began with this? well that is what many have been saying all along.

Zohar is a Hebrew word that means splendor

SO the book of zohar is the book of splendor.

but wait what about this

The Zohar [radiance] is the greatest classic of Jewish mysticism. It
is a mystical commentary on the Torah, written in Aramaic, and is
purported to be the teachings of the 2nd century Palestinian Rabbi
Shimon ben Yohai. Legend relates that during a time of Roman
persecution, Rabbi Shimon hid in a cave for 13 years, studying Torah
with his son; During this time he is said to have been inspired by G@d
to write the Zohar. However, there is no real mention of this book in
any Jewish literature until the 13th century.

In the 13th century, a Spanish Jew by the name of Moshe de Leon
claimed to discover the text of the Zohar, and the text was
subsequently published and distributed throughout the Jewish world.

However, there is a school of thought (based on the writings of
historian Gershom Scholem) that de Leon himself was the most likely
author of the Zohar. Among other things, Scholem noticed the Zohar's
frequent errors in Aramaic grammar and its highly suspicious traces of
Spanish words and sentence patterns. This is still highly disputed by
most (but not all) Orthodox Jews.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/03-Torah-Halacha/section-34.html the Zohar was actually written in the 13th century by a spanish jew. but of course anything that proves trinity just cut and paste. desperate times call for desperate measures.

 

[ZeOvadhYahu]

the zohar is only 2000 years old. it originated at the time of christ. it is no proof that juadism was trinitarian.
http://www.kabbalah.com/k/index.php/p=zohar/about?PHPSESSID=61ffdcf94504315f4f377ffe2f21e8bf

So all this argument about the Zohar predefining trinity is groundless.

http://www.kabbalah.com/k/index.php/p=zohar/about?PHPSESSID=61ffdcf94504315f4f377ffe2f21e8bf Reincarnation, sorcery, trinitarianism began with this? well that is what many have been saying all along.

SO the book of zohar is the book of splendor.

but wait what about this

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/03-Torah-Halacha/section-34.html the Zohar was actually written in the 13th century by a spanish jew. but of course anything that proves trinity just cut and paste. desperate times call for desperate measures.

ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> I would like to congratulate you Jessedance on your research of this subject. Well done!

It is nice to see that you understood my points and took time to do this research for yourself. If the Trinity did stem from Ancient Judaism then the next obvious question is which Sect of Ancient Judaism did it start and come from?
What were there teachings in regard to this?
What was the source of such teachings?
Which Book/Books did they use for such teachings?

Keep up the fine research Jessedance and I will look for more of your informative posts.

With respect,
Zeh'OvadhYahu