Heresy - There's a big fine for that!

HTacianas · Apr 1, 2019

This is posted in Christian History because it deals somewhat with the history of Christianity, and we are in fact living in the history of the future. Anyways...

In the past, heresy was a felony under the law, and a person could be given the death penalty for it. It was treated much the same as any other felony. Much of what was punishable by death in the past is now a civil right. You can speak out against the government, you can hold and speak controversial points of view, and you can hold and advance most any religious view you choose.

But suppose that in modern times in modern Western society it still wasn't that way. What do you think the punishment for heresy, using whatever definition of it you choose, should be? Imprisonment? A fine? Community service?

If you hold your beliefs firmly, and believed someone holding some other view was enticing your children down the road to eternal hellfire, would you report them to the authorities?

SkyWriting · Apr 1, 2019

HTacianas said:
This is posted in Christian History because it deals somewhat with the history of Christianity, and we are in fact living in the history of the future. Anyways...

In the past, heresy was a felony under the law, and a person could be given the death penalty for it. It was treated much the same as any other felony. Much of what was punishable by death in the past is now a civil right. You can speak out against the government, you can hold and speak controversial points of view, and you can hold and advance most any religious view you choose.

But suppose that in modern times in modern Western society it still wasn't that way. What do you think the punishment for heresy, using whatever definition of it you choose, should be? Imprisonment? A fine? Community service?

If you hold your beliefs firmly, and believed someone holding some other view was enticing your children down the road to eternal hellfire, would you report them to the authorities?

Jesus was crucified, so I'd have to say that is the most appropriate response for a Christian. I was banned from this website once for 30 days. So that would be another choice, to be banned from the US for 30 days.

Jonaitis · Apr 1, 2019

HTacianas said:
But suppose that in modern times in modern Western society it still wasn't that way. What do you think the punishment for heresy, using whatever definition of it you choose, should be? Imprisonment? A fine? Community service?

If you hold your beliefs firmly, and believed someone holding some other view was enticing your children down the road to eternal hellfire, would you report them to the authorities?

Heresy is dangerous and should be dealt within the church, not by the state: excommunication.

I don't believe in mixing church and state, that's a dangerous mix that history has clearly shown us.

Call me Nic · Apr 1, 2019

HTacianas said:
This is posted in Christian History because it deals somewhat with the history of Christianity, and we are in fact living in the history of the future. Anyways...

In the past, heresy was a felony under the law, and a person could be given the death penalty for it. It was treated much the same as any other felony. Much of what was punishable by death in the past is now a civil right. You can speak out against the government, you can hold and speak controversial points of view, and you can hold and advance most any religious view you choose.

But suppose that in modern times in modern Western society it still wasn't that way. What do you think the punishment for heresy, using whatever definition of it you choose, should be? Imprisonment? A fine? Community service?

If you hold your beliefs firmly, and believed someone holding some other view was enticing your children down the road to eternal hellfire, would you report them to the authorities?

Anyone can call another a heretic for whatever reason they choose, it’s done all the time in Christendom. And also, in those days, a certain church would restrict the scriptures from the lay people and commoners, effectively darkening the lands from the gospel of Christ. The Protestants that made the Bible available in the common languages were deemed heretics, and were killed, yet they did a miraculous work for God and his gospel by freeing the scriptures to the common people.

When someone calls another person a “heretic,” or accuse them of “heresy,” I very much take it with a grain of salt, because it’s very rarely accurate.

Hank77 · Apr 1, 2019

HTacianas said:
But suppose that in modern times in modern Western society it still wasn't that way. What do you think the punishment for heresy, using whatever definition of it you choose, should be? Imprisonment? A fine? Community service?

For Tyndale the punishment was strangulation and then his body of burnt at the stake.

HTacianas · Apr 1, 2019

Nicolaus Mourer said:
Anyone can call another a heretic for whatever reason they choose, it’s done all the time in Christendom. And also, in those days, a certain church would restrict the scriptures from the lay people and commoners, effectively darkening the lands from the gospel of Christ. The Protestants that made the Bible available in the common languages were deemed heretics, and were killed, yet they did a miraculous work for God and his gospel by freeing the scriptures to the common people.

When someone calls another person a “heretic,” or accuse them of “heresy,” I very much take it with a grain of salt, because it’s very rarely accurate.

Well, you're getting a little off topic, but how many heresies have been created since then?

HTacianas · Apr 1, 2019

Hank77 said:
For Tyndale the punishment was strangulation and then his body of burnt at the stake.

Is that what we want nowadays?

FireDragon76 · Apr 1, 2019

Hank77 said:
For Tyndale the punishment was strangulation and then his body of burnt at the stake.

He was executed because Henry VIII, a Protestant, wanted him dead. Catholcis didn't do it. Just like Henry VIII persecuted and killed Lutherans.

Call me Nic · Apr 1, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
He was executed because Henry VIII, a Protestant, wanted him dead. Catholcis didn't do it. Just like Henry VIII persecuted and killed Lutherans.

Henry VIII may have been excommunicated from the church, but he thought and acted like the Catholic Church, being cruel to any and all opposition. And remember, he was at one time of that church.

Call me Nic · Apr 1, 2019

HTacianas said:
Well, you're getting a little off topic, but how many heresies have been created since then?

Heresy by who’s standards, though? is my question.

HTacianas · Apr 1, 2019

Nicolaus Mourer said:
Heresy by who’s standards, though? is my question.

As the OP states, "whatever definition you choose".

archer75 · Apr 1, 2019

I would not support "punishments" for heresy.

1) I would not want to be punished
2) It would be spiritually unhealthy to go around punishing others for heresy.

We (in the US) live in a civil society in which religious freedom is pretty real. You do not (usually) get tormented or killed for going into a church, mosque, Buddhist temple. The state certainly does not kill or torment you for the faith you profess or the language you pray in.

And I would like it to stay that way.

mark kennedy · Apr 1, 2019

The most effective means of dealing with heresy has always been sound doctrine and shunning false doctrine. Were my Protestant Reformation cohorts to grow a secular arm I suspect censorship would be the order of the day. I don't like the idea of fines and seizure laws since this had a nastsy track record in mediaeval Europe. What's more making these a matter of civil or criminal law is deeply problematic, should I be allowed to run someone up on charges because they espouse views from Liberal theology? That's not how things get done in the moodern world.

JackRT · Apr 1, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Heresy is dangerous and should be dealt within the church, not by the state: excommunication.

I don't believe in mixing church and state, that's a dangerous mix that history has clearly shown us.

Every single Christian on these forums is an heretic to some other Christian here. If we examine Christian history closely we will discover that what is now considered sacrosanct doctrine often started as rank heresy. I will continue to discuss these matters amicably with all my fellow heretics.

Jonaitis · Apr 1, 2019

JackRT said:
Every single Christian on these forums is an heretic to some other Christian here. If we examine Christian history closely we will discover that what is now considered sacrosanct doctrine often started as rank heresy.

Sadly, there is truth in what you say here. The church has become more moderate to what should and would have been deemed extreme in the day. Things have really changed.

archer75 · Apr 1, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Sadly, there is truth in what you say here. The church has become more moderate to what should and would have been deemed extreme in the day. Things have really changed.

There are many unfortunate and evil things that have been done in the name of Christ, often when the Church has been associated with empires or other political organizations. But it is not (where I live) illegal and it never should have been illegal to profess a different faith or a perversion of the Christian faith.

Resha Caner · Apr 2, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I don't believe in mixing church and state, that's a dangerous mix that history has clearly shown us.

And since they've been separated everything has gone perfectly.

tz620q · Apr 2, 2019

Resha Caner said:
And since they've been separated everything has gone perfectly.

Well, I think I might offend other Catholics; but in my opinion, since losing the Papal States, the Catholic Church, shorn of having to govern a temporal state, has gone through a recommitment to the spiritual and eternal state of it's members.

FireDragon76 · Apr 2, 2019

Resha Caner said:
And since they've been separated everything has gone perfectly.

Well, better than the times Christians have tried to erect something close to theocracy. The Puritan experiment in New England didn't really last all that long before the fire burned out and most people got tired of it.

You can always tune in to Handmaid's Tale if you want a dystopian vision of a Christian theocracy.

Resha Caner · Apr 2, 2019

tz620q said:
Well, I think I might offend other Catholics; but in my opinion, since losing the Papal States, the Catholic Church, shorn of having to govern a temporal state, has gone through a recommitment to the spiritual and eternal state of it's members.

FireDragon76 said:
Well, better than the times Christians have tried to erect something close to theocracy. The Puritan experiment in New England didn't really last all that long before the fire burned out and most people got tired of it.

I'm not in favor of theocracy. Rather, I think the model of the Two Kingdoms provides a more appealing alternative to the "all or nothing" position. I sometimes get the impression Americans can't imagine it could work any other way.

Heresy - There's a big fine for that!

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