Herding Goats

[mont974x4]

I honestly believe mankind is changing for the worse(liars, falseness, etc), and methods to protect a church's membership from all sorts of folly are needed whether biblical or not.
People were a bit more "religious minded" back when in Jesus' time hence no emphasis on "tests of membership" to one of the churches, no evidence of church rolls, etc.
Just my 2 cents again.

There is nothing new under the sun. People have always been sinful and rebelious. Just like your support of extrabiblical rules is nothing new. The Pharisees basically made it their profession.


Although the passage is talking about the sabbath and dietary laws I think the principle applies here....

Col 2:23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence. (NASB)

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Well the bottom line is that churches are now tax exempt non profits that cannot be run completely under biblical rule. Unfortunately secular laws/rules of business forceably apply.

 

[jax5434]

When looking at this issue I think we sometimes forget the social/political climate at that time. There were no "advantages" to be had by professing christ at that time in terms of cultural benefits. The opposite was usually true. Those who professed often lost their standing within what had been their family/peer groups. There was no incentive to "fake it" and so they were accepted at face value.(certainly there were a few exceptions)


Today however professing a faith is often only a tool to gain social acceptance in a community, or gain a support network, or political standing or to gain the trust of people in order take advantage of them. So I think it wise to try and determine a persons sincerity before accepting them into the church.


This has nothing to do with judging their faith or questioning their salvation. The local church, after a person makes a confession, but befor baptism should teach them classes on holiness, prayer and christian discipines. Hopefully this accomplishes two purposes. It would help them understand what our faith is really like (not a get out of hell free card)and by being willing to undertake these studies it would give the church some assurance that the holy spirit is working in their lives.

Of cousre this migh put a damper on "church growth numbers" and some do prefer quanity to quality, so to speak


God Bless
Jax

 

[mont974x4]

Well the bottom line is that churches are now tax exempt non profits that cannot be run completely under biblical rule. Unfortunately secular laws/rules of business forceably apply.

Some have chosen to be free from the bondage of Uncle Sugar. Others, defy the government and do what is right anyways.

I don't see what your statement has to do with anything.

 

[TimRout]

Some have chosen to be free from the bondage of Uncle Sugar. Others, defy the government and do what is right anyways.

I don't see what your statement has to do with anything.

There is a significant "home church" movement in Canada that seeks to stay under the radar, offer no tax receipts, and do the work of the ministry at such a grass roots level that the government doesn't recognize them as churches. There is a downside to this, however. The Pastors can't be licensed to officiate at weddings, and virtually all of these churches are too small to afford well trained clergy...so theological deficiencies abound.

Personally, given the extraordinary restrictions and interferences offered by the Canadian (and Ontario) governments, I am heartily inclined to turn in my license and flip them all a great big bird-of-paradise --- which, for those of you unfamiliar with the symbolism, is by no means vulgar. (We are disciples of Christ, after all.)

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Some have chosen to be free from the bondage of Uncle Sugar. Others, defy the government and do what is right anyways.

I don't see what your statement has to do with anything.

You mentioned acceptance of extrabiblical rules....all I am stating is that the acceptance comes from the simple fact that churches are run like any other business. The fact that churches are businesses directly affects what we are talking about overall whether you see it or not.
Bottom line....It's bad for business to keep on accepting goats into the church.

 

[mont974x4]

There is a significant "home church" movement in Canada that seeks to stay under the radar, offer no tax receipts, and do the work of the ministry at such a grass roots level that the government doesn't recognize them as churches. There is a downside to this, however. The Pastors can't be licensed to officiate at weddings, and virtually all of these churches are too small to afford well trained clergy...so theological deficiencies abound.

Personally, given the extraordinary restrictions and interferences offered by the Canadian (and Ontario) governments, I am heartily inclined to turn in my license and flip them all a great big bird-of-paradise --- which, for those of you unfamiliar with the symbolism, is by no means vulgar. (We are disciples of Christ, after all.)

Home churches are growing in popularity here as well. In many areas you do not need to be recognized by the state in order to perform weddings.

While error can come in anywhere, I have found that most small independant churches are less prone to error than the large denominations....the recent episcopal vote on homosexuality is just one example.


The only reason here to be recognized by the Fed's is to give people tithing a tax break. The typical clergy does not make enough to really worry about the tax implications for himself. So, maybe by rejecting the status offered by the Fed we can weed out some people who only give for the wrong reasons? It would certainly free us from the rules, which are quickly becoming anti-Gospel and against Christ.

 

[mont974x4]

You mentioned acceptance of extrabiblical rules....all I am stating is that the acceptance comes from the simple fact that churches are run like any other business. The fact that churches are businesses directly affects what we are talking about overall whether you see it or not.
Bottom line....It's bad for business to keep on accepting goats into the church.

No, it is not. If we obey the biblical example then we are witnessing to the goats (or tares) and doing the work God called us to do. Obedience to God is the best thing for our "business".

Running a church like a business certainly happens in many cases, and it is extremely sad, IMO.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Let me word it a different way:

It's bad for business to keep accepting "false sheep" into the church.

 

[TimRout]

Home churches are growing in popularity here as well. In many areas you do not need to be recognized by the state in order to perform weddings.

While error can come in anywhere, I have found that most small independant churches are less prone to error than the large denominations....the recent episcopal vote on homosexuality is just one example.

The only reason here to be recognized by the Fed's is to give people tithing a tax break. The typical clergy does not make enough to really worry about the tax implications for himself. So, maybe by rejecting the status offered by the Fed we can weed out some people who only give for the wrong reasons? It would certainly free us from the rules, which are quickly becoming anti-Gospel and against Christ.

Concerning the highlighted statement, I agree. But I'm not speaking so much of the cardinal issues that slap conservative theology in the face. I'm speaking of far more basic doctrinal concerns. For example, there is a man leading a twelve person house church just down our street. I have become friends with him. He's a good man who trusts God, prays hard, and seeks to do the right thing --- but he was utterly unable to explain to me the doctrine of the Trinity. As it happens, his beliefs are essentially orthodox, but he is completely unable to express core theological subjects coherently. He needs training.

 

[mont974x4]

Let me word it a different way:

It's bad for business to keep accepting "false sheep" into the church.

I knew what you meant. You don't need to rephrase anything, and I think I have clearly shown that I disagree with you and why.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I knew what you meant. You don't need to rephrase anything, and I think I have clearly shown that I disagree with you and why.

I want to make sure OTHERS here know what I meant.

No worries I'm done...loved the give and take.

 

[mont974x4]

Concerning the highlighted statement, I agree. But I'm not speaking so much of the cardinal issues that slap conservative theology in the face. I'm speaking of far more basic doctrinal concerns. For example, there is a man leading a twelve person house church just down our street. I have become friends with him. He's a good man who trusts God, prays hard, and seeks to do the right thing --- but he was utterly unable to explain to me the doctrine of the Trinity. As it happens, his beliefs are essentially orthodox, but he is completely unable to express core theological subjects coherently. He needs training.

What kind of training? and from who?


I am almost done with Bible college with my bachelors in pastoral minsitries, but I don't think that is necessary. It is good and helpful, but I don't see it as a requirement. What I have learned over the years in my walk with Christ has been more useful than 95% of what I have learned in school.


I must admit though that I am more of a Calvinist in theology and I am attending a welseyan school as a matter of being a good financial steward. Hey, at least I can get some interesting discussions going.

 

[TimRout]

What kind of training? and from who?


I am almost done with Bible college with my bachelors in pastoral minsitries, but I don't think that is necessary. It is good and helpful, but I don't see it as a requirement. What I have learned over the years in my walk with Christ has been more useful than 95% of what I have learned in school.


I must admit though that I am more of a Calvinist in theology and I am attending a welseyan school as a matter of being a good financial steward. Hey, at least I can get some interesting discussions going.

A couple of thoughts:

Firstly, if three years of Bible College has been so unrewarding, perhaps you've been attending the wrong school.

Secondly, though I'm a big fan of formal theological education, I believe my neighbor would be well served by reading a few good books, and receiving some guidance from a thoroughly trained Pastor. Though Seminary is an awesome option, one Seminary educated man can train dozens of local housechurch Pastors. Though many of my brethren disagree with me on this point, I strongly believe that the CHURCH is the place where people should receive the bulk of their theological instruction.

 

[the particular baptist]

I strongly believe that the CHURCH is the place where people should receive the bulk of their theological instruction.

Interestingly, brother Mohler has made it his mission to do just that with the men Southern sends out. I thank God for Southern Seminary and for raising up brother Mohler to lead it, and the quiet reformation revolution within the SBC as a result. Soli Deo Gloria !

 

[mont974x4]

A couple of thoughts:

Firstly, if three years of Bible College has been so unrewarding, perhaps you've been attending the wrong school.

Secondly, though I'm a big fan of formal theological education, I believe my neighbor would be well served by reading a few good books, and receiving some guidance from a thoroughly trained Pastor. Though Seminary is an awesome option, one Seminary educated man can train dozens of local housechurch Pastors. Though many of my brethren disagree with me on this point, I strongly believe that the CHURCH is the place where people should receive the bulk of their theological instruction.

I agree. Biblically we see no formal education process, we see mature men and women teaching, training, mentoring, and discipling.


I never said Bible college was unrewarding. Almost any education is good and beneficial in some manner or other. What I said is, essentially, that what I have learned in the Church and through personal study has been more useful than the majority of what is taught in school. I must admit that I came to Bible college after having been saved for over 25 years. A younger Christian or someone who has not benefited from an upbringing similar to mine probably benefits more.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

How did you end up at a Wesleyan College!?!?!

 

[mont974x4]

The pastor who encouraged me, saying I was doing the work of a pastor and we should make it official, was a Nazarene. He even created a position for me at his church to give me experience. In researching education options to meet the requirements for ordination I found Nazarene Bible College to be about half the cost of anywhere else I found. That pastor retired in April, the church board fired me at their monthly meeting in May. Which is fine, God is at work and I believe He protected me from going in the wrong direction.

Now, I am not only looking for church for my family to fellowship in short term, I am also looking for a pastorate.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Very cool.

 

[TimRout]

So then, steering us back toward the OP, what do leaders do when they need to dismiss a disobedient member, but the majority of the congregation refuse to support the action?