Oh, and I used to go to an Episcopal church and I liked it a lot. Moved, though and couldn't go there anymore.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Henry 8th
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Sola Gratis is a very large part of Catholic theology. In fact, I don't know of an expression of the Christian faith which does not hold to that article of faith. As far as Augustine professing a belief in "unconditional election, total depravity, limited atonement... , perseverance of the saints, and irresistable grace," I do not think he did.
I would say that the above quote from Augustine denies both irrestible grace and unconditional election.
To see Augustine's belief in regards to limited atonement:
On the Perseverance of the Saints
As for total depravity, I'm not well enough versed to offer my opinion. Could someone offer a definition of just total depravity, or does it by necessity include the other Reformed Doctrines, too?
God Bless,
Neal
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Originally posted by s0uljah
Hey, its better than laying in a pool of your blood, corrected.
?????
????
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seebs
God Made Me A Skeptic
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s0uljah's just punning on "stand".
I stand corrected.
I sit corrected.
I fall down corrected.
Thus, "laying on a pool of your own blood, corrected", which has rather disturbing implications.
I'll likely steal the phrase some day; it's poetic.
I stand corrected.
I sit corrected.
I fall down corrected.
Thus, "laying on a pool of your own blood, corrected", which has rather disturbing implications.
I'll likely steal the phrase some day; it's poetic.
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Ah, thanks seebs. Coming from you, that is a compliment indeed, my friend.
P.S.
Lamb, I was also being a little bit cynical towards DOTF777's assurances of his own salvation, but it was all in good will.
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Originally posted by s0uljah
Ah, thanks seebs. Coming from you, that is a compliment indeed, my friend.
P.S.
Lamb, I was also being a little bit cynical towards DOTF777's assurances of his own salvation, but it was all in good will.
Ah! But it's that assurance of salvation that keeps me going. If I thought God might end up rejecting me for the stupid things I do, I'd probably lose all hope and...well, let's not think about that. :o
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It's good to know I'm in good standing with God because of what Christ did. If Christ didn't absolutely save us, why did he bother dying on the cross at all? If it's based on our performance, what is the purpose of the cross?
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To give us a chance of salvation. When we accept Him, we are saved. But that doesnt mean that we can the go and repeat Adam/Eve all over again through our own sins.
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Were there other factors that supported this new Church, like there were with Luther in Germany?
The main draw that the Church of England had to the people at the time of it's formation was that the King insisted that the Mass be held in the native tongue (ENGLISH) so that the people could understand what was being said. (Most people were not educated at that time, i.e., did not understand Latin, the language the Roman Catholics used for their masses at the time). Also, the Bible was made available to the people for the FIRST TIME EVER (before, it was guarded by the Church, lay people had NO private access to it). People could buy a family Bible for the first time, even though most could not read it or afford it, I think this aspect of the Church of England's philosophy was a step in the right direction for the Christian faith. The Roman Catholics followed MUCH later by authorizing their own mass in the vernacular, as I am sure you know.
The first Book of Common Prayer was also written at this time, in which many prayers of the Saints, collects (prayers adapted for the seasons of the Church Year, one for each week), the Psalms, and settings of the mass, morning and evening prayer, and compline were written down in English as a guide for daily use in the English Church. This book also contains a lectionoary (a list of Bible verses to be read each day) which enables the English Church to read the entire Bible in three years (reading 3 lessons at each service (assuming that a service is held each morning and evening).
In addition, many, many new choral compositions were written to celebrate the mass in English, as well as anthems, hymns, and prayer settings that are used to this day in both Prodestant and ROMAN CATHOLIC Churches.
Perhaps the most historical statement given by the Church of England about their beliefs is the 39 articles. It is a statement of faith, and like Luther's theses, it also states why the Church of England is not able to accept what it calls the "ROMISH CHURCH," and I quote:
"XIX. Of the Church
........"As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch have erred; also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and matter of ceremonies, but also in matters of faith."
"XXII. Of Pergatory.
The Romish Doctrine concerning Pergatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God."
If you are interested, the full text of the 39 Articles of Religion (of the Church of England) can be found on the web. I was NOT allowed to post the web address because I have posted to this forum fewer than 15 times. It seems like a weird rule to me, but you will have to type "39 Articles" into your browser and get to the site yourself.
I hope this helps you in your quest for information.
The main draw that the Church of England had to the people at the time of it's formation was that the King insisted that the Mass be held in the native tongue (ENGLISH) so that the people could understand what was being said. (Most people were not educated at that time, i.e., did not understand Latin, the language the Roman Catholics used for their masses at the time). Also, the Bible was made available to the people for the FIRST TIME EVER (before, it was guarded by the Church, lay people had NO private access to it). People could buy a family Bible for the first time, even though most could not read it or afford it, I think this aspect of the Church of England's philosophy was a step in the right direction for the Christian faith. The Roman Catholics followed MUCH later by authorizing their own mass in the vernacular, as I am sure you know.
The first Book of Common Prayer was also written at this time, in which many prayers of the Saints, collects (prayers adapted for the seasons of the Church Year, one for each week), the Psalms, and settings of the mass, morning and evening prayer, and compline were written down in English as a guide for daily use in the English Church. This book also contains a lectionoary (a list of Bible verses to be read each day) which enables the English Church to read the entire Bible in three years (reading 3 lessons at each service (assuming that a service is held each morning and evening).
In addition, many, many new choral compositions were written to celebrate the mass in English, as well as anthems, hymns, and prayer settings that are used to this day in both Prodestant and ROMAN CATHOLIC Churches.
Perhaps the most historical statement given by the Church of England about their beliefs is the 39 articles. It is a statement of faith, and like Luther's theses, it also states why the Church of England is not able to accept what it calls the "ROMISH CHURCH," and I quote:
"XIX. Of the Church
........"As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch have erred; also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and matter of ceremonies, but also in matters of faith."
"XXII. Of Pergatory.
The Romish Doctrine concerning Pergatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God."
If you are interested, the full text of the 39 Articles of Religion (of the Church of England) can be found on the web. I was NOT allowed to post the web address because I have posted to this forum fewer than 15 times. It seems like a weird rule to me, but you will have to type "39 Articles" into your browser and get to the site yourself.
I hope this helps you in your quest for information.
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Me and my friend were discussing Augustine one time and I asked to borrow her textbook from Bible school to get a better idea of how Protestants saw him:
"Augustine is looked upon by Protestants as one who was a forerunner of Reformation ideas in his emphasis on salvation from original and actual sin as a result of the grace of a sovereign God who irresistibly saves those who He has elected. But in his discussion of how man is saved, Augustine so emphasized the church as a visible intitution with the true creed, sacraments, and ministry that the Roman church considers him the father of Roman ecclesisticism. It should be remembered that he made these emphases to defeat the claims of the Pelagians on the one hand and the Donatists on the other. His insistence on consideration of the whole tenor of Scripture in interpreting a part of Scripture has been a pricniple of lasting value in the church.
In spite of these abiding values, Augustine brought some errors into the stream of Christian thought. He helped to develop the doctrine of purgatyory with all its attendant evils. He so emphasizerd the value of the two sacraments that the doctine of baptismal regeneration and sacramental grace were logical outcomes of his views. His interpretation of the Millennium as the era between the Incarnation and the Second Advent of Christ in which the church would conquer the world led to the Roman emphasis on the Church of Rome as the universal church destined to bring all within its fold and to the idea of postmillennialism." (Christianity Through the Centuries - Earle E. Cairns)
I laughed when I recongnized the obvious contradictions of this paragraph. St. Augustine was a Catholic bishop, his mother was a Saint as well, St. Monica, and his son was a priest. He was there when the Church connonized the NT, he helped develop the doctrine of purgatory, he taught the necessity of baptismal regeneration and the necessity of the Eucharist and he taught that the Roman Church was the church of Christ and yet he was "a forerunner" for Protestant thought??
Thanx, Luv
Theresa
"Augustine is looked upon by Protestants as one who was a forerunner of Reformation ideas in his emphasis on salvation from original and actual sin as a result of the grace of a sovereign God who irresistibly saves those who He has elected. But in his discussion of how man is saved, Augustine so emphasized the church as a visible intitution with the true creed, sacraments, and ministry that the Roman church considers him the father of Roman ecclesisticism. It should be remembered that he made these emphases to defeat the claims of the Pelagians on the one hand and the Donatists on the other. His insistence on consideration of the whole tenor of Scripture in interpreting a part of Scripture has been a pricniple of lasting value in the church.
In spite of these abiding values, Augustine brought some errors into the stream of Christian thought. He helped to develop the doctrine of purgatyory with all its attendant evils. He so emphasizerd the value of the two sacraments that the doctine of baptismal regeneration and sacramental grace were logical outcomes of his views. His interpretation of the Millennium as the era between the Incarnation and the Second Advent of Christ in which the church would conquer the world led to the Roman emphasis on the Church of Rome as the universal church destined to bring all within its fold and to the idea of postmillennialism." (Christianity Through the Centuries - Earle E. Cairns)
I laughed when I recongnized the obvious contradictions of this paragraph. St. Augustine was a Catholic bishop, his mother was a Saint as well, St. Monica, and his son was a priest. He was there when the Church connonized the NT, he helped develop the doctrine of purgatory, he taught the necessity of baptismal regeneration and the necessity of the Eucharist and he taught that the Roman Church was the church of Christ and yet he was "a forerunner" for Protestant thought??
Thanx, Luv
Theresa
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VOW
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Wow, the English church "invented" the lectionary?
What about the Catholic lectionary which also accomplishes the deed of reading the entire Bible in three years' time? That's an awful lot of Scripture to us non-Scriptural Catholics, hmmm?
Peace,
~VOW
What about the Catholic lectionary which also accomplishes the deed of reading the entire Bible in three years' time? That's an awful lot of Scripture to us non-Scriptural Catholics, hmmm?
Peace,
~VOW
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Kind of. His mother was Christian and had tried to raise him right but his father was Pagan and only converted at his death. St. Augustine fell into heresy called Manicheanism (?) which was Oriental I believe and he also went through fazes of Astrology and what not. His mother spent many years in tears and on her knees for her son, so much so that she almost turned him away and the Bishop told her that 'the son of so many tears would not be lost.' His life had many twists and turns. He lived out of wedlock with a woman for a really long time and had one son with her. And then came his conversion to Christianity or Catholosism and a complete turn around in him. I read that he had learned things from St. Ambrose as well. He was baptised, and he broke of his relationship with the woman he had lived with, according to what I read, it is thought she became a nun. Anyways, he became a priest and eventually a bishop. I think he founded a religious order and of course wrote many books which are still around today. His son became a priest as well and his mother died a happy death. The son of so many tears was not lost, instead God worked many wonders through him. He became celibate from the time he understood why anybody would want to. Early in his life he had talked about being "in love with love." I have been that way too, in love with human love until I understood the full scope and implications of divine love and felt it's rays upon my face. I would have become a nun then too, if I could have and I still kept the option open if ever there is a time when I am without a husband.
Anyways, I'm actually not sure when priestly celibacy became the actual rule.
Thanx, Luv
Theresa
Anyways, I'm actually not sure when priestly celibacy became the actual rule.
Thanx, Luv
Theresa
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