Hemogloben

Ark Guy · Dec 24, 2003

Bushido216 said:
Explain to me, Ark Guy, how the method used to preserve the Hemoglobin would swing the debate one way or another?

Because there is no known natural method that would alllow the hemoglobin to last that long.

It would be like you telling me an ice cube could last in the desert heat.

notto · Dec 24, 2003

Ark Guy said:
Of course IT DOESN'T MATTER TO YOU.

It can't matter to you because then you don't need to explain why or how it lasted so long.

Add another point to the YEC score board.

The claim made in the original post was not correct. The hemoglobin was not intact or "preserved". There were some proteins found and these were found deep in the bone, in a fossil that had been preserved underground with no exposure prior to the find, in an atmosphere that prevented moisture from getting in.

There is no reason that a very few of these organic molecules could not survive in this atmosphere. You have not presented a reason they could not.

If you read the original paper which I linked to, they discuss how the proteins were found and the specific nature of the bone in which they found them. The condition of the find is rare and that is why the used it to do these particular examinations and experiements.

Not sure how this is a point for the 'YEC scoreboard'. Your original claim (as well as those found on most YEC websites) about this find are in error.

Ark Guy · Dec 24, 2003

notto said:
The claim made in the original post was not correct. The hemoglobin was not intact or "preserved". There were some proteins found and these were found deep in the bone, in a fossil that had been preserved underground with no exposure prior to the find, in an atmosphere that prevented moisture from getting in.

Deep in the bone? You make it sound like the bone is really thick. Deep in the bone really isn't all that far.
Just the fact that the other hemoglobin proteins right next to the hemoglobin tested were not preserved calls into question why one survived.

Of course I'm still waiting for an explanation of how they survived for 80+MY's

There is no reason that a very few of these organic molecules could not survive in this atmosphere. You have not presented a reason they could not.

Wrong again. If any did not survive in that bone..then none would have survived in 80+ MY's. All of the hemoglobin was exposed to the same conditions.......except for the ones just a few millimeters away DEEP in the bone.

If you read the original paper which I linked to, they discuss how the proteins were found and the specific nature of the bone in which they found them. The condition of the find is rare and that is why the used it to do these particular examinations and experiements.

Your best argument is that the hemoglobin did not belong to the dinosaur.

Not sure how this is a point for the 'YEC scoreboard'. Your original claim (as well as those found on most YEC websites) about this find are in error.

The point is scored because the hemoglobin should not be there which helps falsify the old earth models....that much is obvious.

notto · Dec 24, 2003

You have yet to show us why the broken down hemogloben should not be there.

'Deep in the bone', if would reference the original research, is clearly defined as in the middle of the largest bones, where the bone casing itself would provide the most protection against the outside environment. It was found where this type of molecule would most likely be found in tact - protected by the bone itself, and found in a sample that had not been exposed recently to air or moisture (or contamination from other organics). These molecules were not exposed to the same conditions because they were inside the bone itself, protected from the elements by what is a fairly strong, watertight, structure (the dinosaur bone - more than a few millimeters thick).

Can you provide us a reason why these molecules could NOT survive? It was unexpected, yes, but the nature of the specimine was rare in how it was preserved?

The only way this would falsify anything is if it could be shown that these particular protein molecules (NOT complete hemegloben) could NOT survive in the conditions they were found in. No evidence has been presented to show this. That much is obvious.

You are still refering to the find as 'hemogloben'. Can we agree that no hemogloben was found but only proteins that can from what once could have been hemogloben?

Ark Guy · Dec 24, 2003

You never did explain how it was preserved.....except assuming that it is 80+MY's old and therefore had to have survived somehow.

notto · Dec 24, 2003

Ark Guy said:
You never did explain how it was preserved.....except assuming that it is 80+MY's old and therefore had to have survived somehow.

I referenced the points from the original research.

1) The bone had previously been unexposed to air before the collection.
2) The specimines used for testing were taken from inside the major leg bone of the find
3) The way the specimine was found indicated that it was buried rapidly (it was found in an ancient stream bed) and that scavengers had not gotten to it, indicating that it was covered completely.
4) There was little mineral replacement in the bone (that may indicate little exposure to water and indicate preservation by dehydration - which may favor the preservation of these types of proteins).

It was not assumed to be 80+ million years old. It was dated to 65-67 million years ago.

Micaiah · Dec 24, 2003

You may find this past discussion on the subject of interest.

http://www.christianforums.com/t31899&page=3&pp=20&highlight=million

TheBear · Dec 24, 2003

Micaiah said:
You may find this past discussion on the subject of interest.

http://www.christianforums.com/t31899&page=3&pp=20&highlight=million

Keep in mind. That link is to an Open Forum section. Christians and non-Christians are permitted to participate in that thread.

Just wanted to let all know.

Bushido216 · Dec 24, 2003

Ark Guy said:
Because there is no known natural method that would alllow the hemoglobin to last that long.

It would be like you telling me an ice cube could last in the desert heat.

But it wouldn't suddenly debunk the notion that the earth is older than 6,000 years. All you would have is an arguement from ignorance and a God of the Gaps.

Useless.

LewisWildermuth · Dec 25, 2003

Ark Guy said:
The point is scored because the hemoglobin should not be there which helps falsify the old earth models....that much is obvious.

First, this is a discussion not a game, there are no "points" awarded.

Second, the hemoglobin did not survive, only a few trace protiens that are from the decomposition of hemoglobin survived. While hemoglobin deteriorates rapidly the protiens do not, so there is no age problem here at all.

Ark Guy · Dec 25, 2003

Sooooooo, protiens can last for 80 MY's?

What ever you say.

LewisWildermuth · Dec 25, 2003

Ark Guy said:
Sooooooo, protiens can last for 80 MY's?

What ever you say.

Yes, your getting the point!

Hemoglobin is unstabe and breaks down quickly, protiens are more stable and as long as they are not exposed to harmful processes can last long periods of time.

Think of it as canning food, once you protect the food from the things that break it down you can store it for years and it will still be edible. The simple protiens can last even longer if sealed and protected.

notto · Dec 26, 2003

Ark Guy said:
Sooooooo, protiens can last for 80 MY's?

What ever you say.

There are lots of examples of scientists isolating ancient proteins. Proteins are just molecules, like any other. We find complex organic molecules in coal and oil and these have survived millions of years. Why would protein molecules be that much different?

Ark Guy · Dec 26, 2003

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, once again....protiens (hemoglobin) can last 80 MY's?

notto · Dec 26, 2003

Ark Guy said:
Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, once again....protiens (hemoglobin) can last 80 MY's?

Some protiens can. Hemoglobin does not seem to, at least at this point because we haven't found any and it is know that hemogloben breaks down into smaller component readily. At this point, no hemogloben that is 80 years old has been found.

You question is really two questions, each apparently with different answers.

Hemoglobin - No
Proteins - Yes

The simplier protiens that make up Hemoglobin have been found as well as other proteins.

Ark Guy · Dec 26, 2003

For the THIRD TIME......how did the PROTEIN (HEMOGLOBEN) survive for 80 + MILLION YEARS?

Ark Guy · Dec 26, 2003

Your problem is this..why just that particular section of bone? If all of the other proteins that were used to make up the hemoglobin did not survive why not all of it?

Certainly if 80+ MY destroyed all of the other elements..those found should have not made it. Like the other proteins in close proximity, exposed to the same conditions for 80+ MY's they too would have been destroyed.

notto · Dec 26, 2003

Ark Guy said:
For the THIRD TIME......how did the PROTEIN (HEMOGLOBEN) survive for 80 + MILLION YEARS?

Why couldn't it? It's just a molecule. Is there some indication that we should not expect these proteins from broken down hemogloben to survive?

The hemogloben did not survive. It broke down into simpler proteins which did survive. As to how and why, a possible solution to that is discussed in the original research material that is linked to earlier in the thread. The find was rare and found in conditions that most likely favored their preservation (lack of exposure to air and moisture, and protected by the bone in which they were found).

notto · Dec 26, 2003

Ark Guy said:
Your problem is this..why just that particular section of bone? If all of the other proteins that were used to make up the hemoglobin did not survive why not all of it?

Certainly if 80+ MY destroyed all of the other elements..those found should have not made it. Like the other proteins in close proximity, exposed to the same conditions for 80+ MY's they too would have been destroyed.

Why? Obviously each molecule is NOT exposed to the same conditions. Some broke down, some didn't.

Your question is like saying that once a slice of my loaf of bread gets moldy, it should all be instantly moldy. Obviously not all parts of the bread are exposed to the same conditions, at the same time, over the same course of time.

Why does the outside of my cheese get moldy while the inside stays fresh?

Ark Guy · Dec 26, 2003

Were calling it hemoglobin for the sake of the argument......we all know what it really is. Get over it NOTTO.

For the 4th time...why is it there when all of the other hemoglobin proteins were destroyed?
Why did just this particular section survive? THAT IS WHT YOU NEED TO ANSWER.

Hemogloben

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