well with all due respect...what does He expect? For the world to throw up arms to His name? I will pray that He gives me more faith, and I will try. thankyou.
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help..
- Thread starter AlecEiffel
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Oh, and Lilly, could you please share with me how you felt His love? I would greatly appreciate it, because im having a problem with it and all, I dont even know. please tell me
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WeakButHopeful
Senior Member
AlecEiffel, there's no way I can really prove it to you, but I really *do* want you to find the truth as soon as possible. I start this way because I worry the rest of my response will make you impatient. But I also was one of those students who asked a thousand questions and annoyed everyone and I haven't changed. But this is how I found the truth, and I'm not sure there's a super short-cut.
First, keep in mind that just because someone gives a lame, illogical explanation of something doesn't mean it's not true. You can be annoyed with the lousy arguments but keep an open mind and heart. God cherishes your free will and welcomes your doubt, as long as you don't doubt just for the sake of doubting.
Second, don't assume you're the only person who has been where you are. There are whole books written on the issues you raise. I know, many today are too impatient to read books. If you're one of them find people who are well read and ask them to quote or reference passages that they have found to be the best on your question (I can try if you'd like, feel free to PM me). If you are well read then try to find examples of people who had the same doubts as you...there are many from the early days of the church, and many from recent times as well.
Third, Jesus talked about the pearl of great price. You have to be willing to sell the other pearls you've found once you find it. I mean, you're looking for the Truth (capital T). You have to be willing to give up your little truths once you find it, and should not resist finding it just because you see there may be a cost once you do.
Finally, my answer to you is in response to your quest for truth, but I don't believe that is the end, it's only the beginning. In Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" when the truth was finally found, it changed that person's whole world view, and their focus turned to all those without the light. For those Christians reading this and annoyed that I haven't mentioned the Bible, the Holy Spirit or prayer, I believe these are all available and necessary to AE after acceptance of Jesus as personal Savior, but cannot force AE into that decision which must be made freely.
I hope this has helped somewhat. PM me if you think I can be of any help. May God bless you.
First, keep in mind that just because someone gives a lame, illogical explanation of something doesn't mean it's not true. You can be annoyed with the lousy arguments but keep an open mind and heart. God cherishes your free will and welcomes your doubt, as long as you don't doubt just for the sake of doubting.
Second, don't assume you're the only person who has been where you are. There are whole books written on the issues you raise. I know, many today are too impatient to read books. If you're one of them find people who are well read and ask them to quote or reference passages that they have found to be the best on your question (I can try if you'd like, feel free to PM me). If you are well read then try to find examples of people who had the same doubts as you...there are many from the early days of the church, and many from recent times as well.
Third, Jesus talked about the pearl of great price. You have to be willing to sell the other pearls you've found once you find it. I mean, you're looking for the Truth (capital T). You have to be willing to give up your little truths once you find it, and should not resist finding it just because you see there may be a cost once you do.
Finally, my answer to you is in response to your quest for truth, but I don't believe that is the end, it's only the beginning. In Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" when the truth was finally found, it changed that person's whole world view, and their focus turned to all those without the light. For those Christians reading this and annoyed that I haven't mentioned the Bible, the Holy Spirit or prayer, I believe these are all available and necessary to AE after acceptance of Jesus as personal Savior, but cannot force AE into that decision which must be made freely.
I hope this has helped somewhat. PM me if you think I can be of any help. May God bless you.
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thankyou, that does help. I like reading books, and I didnt mean to come off as impatient, I was just frustrated, and I guess I can be pushy at times. I would like to read some of these books you're talking about, if you could tell me what books I should check out that would be great. I could head to the library as soon as possible. One thing I dont understand.. what are you reffering to when you say "little truths" that I must be willing to give up once I find the Truth? Are you talking about my old ways? My sin? thankyou once again. Peace be with you.
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nadroj1985
A bittersweet truth: sum, ergo cogito
Hey Alec 
Just wanted to let you know that I'm praying for you too and I have had a lot of the same questions you have now, and I quite honestly still have some of them. You've raised alot of questions in this thread and I'm not gonna try to answer all of them, but I will let you know that if you ever want to ask me something, I'm more than willing to try to help you out.
Just wanted to let you know that I'm praying for you too and I have had a lot of the same questions you have now, and I quite honestly still have some of them. You've raised alot of questions in this thread and I'm not gonna try to answer all of them, but I will let you know that if you ever want to ask me something, I'm more than willing to try to help you out.
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I have a problem... honestly thinking here, about this topic... if God doesn't exist... that has no sense to me... so to explain that i have two options... the first, i'm so stupid... or i'm using common sense?... wow, the truth there is no way for me to believe that this incredible world was created without someone with an incredible intelligence and power... for me, the truth, is like thinking that the computer and the monitor that i have in from of me was created by... itself?...
Also i don't know we, but i can feel, let see, not thinking in God... i can feel a force or someting pushing me to do good thinks for me and the others...
"I just want the meaning of life"... that's a big question... but i think that you will need to find the answer by your own way. You know... for the the life is a gift, i know... there is a lot of wrong thinks over here... but after all, is not my fault, i don't know what God wanna do or is doing about that, the truth, is his problem... but i know what i want to do, first i don't want to be part of dark side, and im gonna do my best to make this please a little bit better for the future and my kids (that i don't have jet). I don't know what the other people is gonna do or is doing, actually i don't care, i'm not gonna loose my time in that, the only thing that i know for sure is that i'm the only think that i can control, so i'm gonna do the best and go as far as i can.
There is not 100% i guest...
, but for me that's is so fascinating... actually i think... how boring would be the life if i know for sure all... :s
I cannot tell if God exist 100%, or if he doesnt exist... but if i look inside of me, in my hard, and in my maind, i can tell; God exists, i can feel his presence, i believe in him.
Also i don't know we, but i can feel, let see, not thinking in God... i can feel a force or someting pushing me to do good thinks for me and the others...
"I just want the meaning of life"... that's a big question... but i think that you will need to find the answer by your own way. You know... for the the life is a gift, i know... there is a lot of wrong thinks over here... but after all, is not my fault, i don't know what God wanna do or is doing about that, the truth, is his problem... but i know what i want to do, first i don't want to be part of dark side, and im gonna do my best to make this please a little bit better for the future and my kids (that i don't have jet). I don't know what the other people is gonna do or is doing, actually i don't care, i'm not gonna loose my time in that, the only thing that i know for sure is that i'm the only think that i can control, so i'm gonna do the best and go as far as i can.
There is not 100% i guest...
, but for me that's is so fascinating... actually i think... how boring would be the life if i know for sure all... :sI cannot tell if God exist 100%, or if he doesnt exist... but if i look inside of me, in my hard, and in my maind, i can tell; God exists, i can feel his presence, i believe in him.
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Yes, exactly. This questions have been haunting me this past year or so, eating away at me, and I just have to know. Just looking outside at the stars, the sky, the mountains, the oceans, all the people of the world, history, langauge, I believe this is a result of God. But the only thing that irks me is... He seems SO quiet!!! I just cant comprehend something so powerful creating a world so amazing and yet remaining so quiet only revealing Himself to those who seek!! I mean, its a pretty big hunch, I suppose, to go on faith. I need something more than words, but I know God will show me the way. I cant imagine a world without God, theres too many things that contradict it, in my mind atleast... but that doesnt sound like a very valid arguement, I mean, someone could say I was weak-minded and that just because I cant imagine a world without God, that doesnt prove His existence. I think thats the hardest part for me, being on the verge of something big, maybe getting a peek in, and then completely questioning everything over and over again. Life is painful. The one thing I see with life sometimes is how completely random it is, so given an infinite amount of time, is it possible that Earth formed, somehow? And given an infinite amount of time, humans evolved? I personally dont think so, theres too much that cant be a coincidence, like how we've stayed in a perfect postion from the sun, not too far, not too close, for billions of years. And how we havent been wiped out by a meteor or anything, and how prophecy continues to come true, and how the Bible has so many truths in it. It just all points back to God, I mean, when I think about it, the way God runs the world, everything, its so beautiful, beautifully painful, too, though. I can think about so many things and just begin to cry. God is amazing.
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WeakButHopeful
Senior Member
No, I didn't mean that sin was the obstacle. If sin prevented belief there would be no believers.
I think the little truths that may need to be surrendered when the big Truth is found vary from person to person. As for myself, I had to get past the idea of a legalistic and judgmental God who could only be accepted or understood through formal religious channels. I've read that some people feel that life is to be experienced to its fullest and that spiritual devotions are too restrictive. Others have problems with "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" And, of couse, many are unwilling to be Christian because they know some thoughtless, unethical or violent people who are Christians (or say they are). These are small "t" truths because each has some truthful aspect to it. But they are imperfect, flawed pearls.
For instance, you (and most people on earth) would probably agree with the statement that mirrors reverse things left and right. Have you ever wondered why they don't reverse things top and bottom? How does the mirror know which way the center of the earth is? Well, the truth is that mirrors don't reverse anything at all. We do. When we want to see how something looks in the mirror we turn it (or ourselves) around left/right. Try flipping a piece of paper end over end in front of a mirror and see what happens. Or better yet, in a brightly lit room write your name with a dark marker on a thin piece of paper and DON'T flip it at all, just hold it normally as if reading a book, then look up at the mirror and you'll see that you can read your name normally.
I know that was a long example, but do you see how it's easy to take things for granted that just aren't true? Try to think through deeply and carefully your objections to belief in, or devotion to, God. And as I said you'll want to look at what others have written on the obstacles you are encountering. Of course, there are tens of thousands of books on this topic, but if you narrow your thought to one objection or doubt at a time and get advice from others, you may save a lot of time and end up with greater clarity of thought.
As for the books I have read which have helped me, I must state first off that just because I found them helpful does not mean you will. And I'm NOT saying these books are pearls of great price! I'm just saying that they made some good thoughtful arguments that helped me to let go of the flawed pearls or helped me in my search for the pearl of great price. And of course, we're different people, you may not like them at all. And I bet some people will find things wrong with them, which is OK, I'm not saying that they're perfect, only worth consideration.
For the question of free will and God allowing evil in the world, I think the best thoughtful consideration I've ever read is Raymond Smullyan's "Is God A Taoist?" which you can find in a book called "The Mind's I" edited by Douglas Hofstadter. It's also available on the Web at http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html
On the question of the very poor behavior of Christians I think C. S. Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters" is both VERY thoughtful and VERY entertaining (that's a combination you don't run into often, huh?)
On the subject of how very deeply God cares for each of us and how religion can <sometimes> interfere with that, my favorite book is Joseph Girzone's "Joshua".
To attack the idea that being a Christian is a gloomy and limited life, I love the book "They Found the Secret" by V. Raymond Edman.
I have many other favorite books. There is, of course, the most popular book ever published: The Holy Bible. And there's Oswald Chamber's "My Utmost for His Highest." But at this point my suggestion is you work on getting past your doubts.
I hope this was of some help. May God bless you with wisdom.
I think the little truths that may need to be surrendered when the big Truth is found vary from person to person. As for myself, I had to get past the idea of a legalistic and judgmental God who could only be accepted or understood through formal religious channels. I've read that some people feel that life is to be experienced to its fullest and that spiritual devotions are too restrictive. Others have problems with "Why does God let bad things happen to good people?" And, of couse, many are unwilling to be Christian because they know some thoughtless, unethical or violent people who are Christians (or say they are). These are small "t" truths because each has some truthful aspect to it. But they are imperfect, flawed pearls.
For instance, you (and most people on earth) would probably agree with the statement that mirrors reverse things left and right. Have you ever wondered why they don't reverse things top and bottom? How does the mirror know which way the center of the earth is? Well, the truth is that mirrors don't reverse anything at all. We do. When we want to see how something looks in the mirror we turn it (or ourselves) around left/right. Try flipping a piece of paper end over end in front of a mirror and see what happens. Or better yet, in a brightly lit room write your name with a dark marker on a thin piece of paper and DON'T flip it at all, just hold it normally as if reading a book, then look up at the mirror and you'll see that you can read your name normally.
I know that was a long example, but do you see how it's easy to take things for granted that just aren't true? Try to think through deeply and carefully your objections to belief in, or devotion to, God. And as I said you'll want to look at what others have written on the obstacles you are encountering. Of course, there are tens of thousands of books on this topic, but if you narrow your thought to one objection or doubt at a time and get advice from others, you may save a lot of time and end up with greater clarity of thought.
As for the books I have read which have helped me, I must state first off that just because I found them helpful does not mean you will. And I'm NOT saying these books are pearls of great price! I'm just saying that they made some good thoughtful arguments that helped me to let go of the flawed pearls or helped me in my search for the pearl of great price. And of course, we're different people, you may not like them at all. And I bet some people will find things wrong with them, which is OK, I'm not saying that they're perfect, only worth consideration.
For the question of free will and God allowing evil in the world, I think the best thoughtful consideration I've ever read is Raymond Smullyan's "Is God A Taoist?" which you can find in a book called "The Mind's I" edited by Douglas Hofstadter. It's also available on the Web at http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html
On the question of the very poor behavior of Christians I think C. S. Lewis' "The Screwtape Letters" is both VERY thoughtful and VERY entertaining (that's a combination you don't run into often, huh?)
On the subject of how very deeply God cares for each of us and how religion can <sometimes> interfere with that, my favorite book is Joseph Girzone's "Joshua".
To attack the idea that being a Christian is a gloomy and limited life, I love the book "They Found the Secret" by V. Raymond Edman.
I have many other favorite books. There is, of course, the most popular book ever published: The Holy Bible. And there's Oswald Chamber's "My Utmost for His Highest." But at this point my suggestion is you work on getting past your doubts.
I hope this was of some help. May God bless you with wisdom.
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This is definatly helping, thankyou so much. I see what you mean now about giving up little truths and putting total faith in Him...I understand, I'm trying to do this right now, a few hours ago, I got down on my knees and poured out my heart to the Lord, nothing but the truth from my heart, I poured out everything I had in my head at the moment and I can only hope this is good enough for Him. Im trying to give up these little truths already...it is kind of hard, but ive already given up one, I told the Lord im taking baby steps..and that im really trying my hardest with an earnest heart, and I mean it, im tired of living a bad life, I WANT to make a difference in the world, and even if this difference is but a tiny dot from God's birds eye view, then its worth it, its worth more than anything I've ever done in my life. I can only continue to pray that He reveal Himself to me, and that I give up some little truths, and later on I can begin to comprehend these truths...thankyou again. Peace be with you.
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and thankyou for reffering these books to me. I will see if they have them in the library as soon as I can get out to one...God bless.
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I felt His love when I was angry with Him. My family was looking for a house and really thought that a house we saw was the one the Lord had planned. Well, after months of no one buying it, someone did. I was so upset at God. Later that day, I felt bad about getting angry at him and repented. Almost as soon as I did, I felt this "cloud" of His love surrround me. It's kind of hard to explain. The best way to explain it is as a massive cloud of love. It was one of the greatest expieriences I have ever experienced. I also found out that God was testing me. He still has a house even better for us to get. I've also had other really amazing experiences too.
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WeakButHopeful
Senior Member
One quick addition to all my previous comments: remember that God is our heavenly father...Jesus used the term "Abba" which I've heard translated as "Pappa". As the Bible says, what parent would give a child a stone if they asked for bread. And how many grandparents would say: "Oh, my grandchild is trying to do his/her best but in the grand scheme of things it's a trivial contribution and so not really interesting to me...I'll just be polite and pretend to be pleased." Fat chance. Like I said, that was my obstacle. I had to convince myself that He really, really does love us deeply. Books (including the Bible) helped me, prayer and careful attention to my life helped me and other people helped me. I only mention this because it sounds like mixed in with your doubt you also have a sense of guilt or shame. Regret is good. All parents want you to regret your mistakes, but shame is bad. You did bad things, you are not a bad thing. Also God is outside of time but we aren't. So the only place we'll find Him is in the present. I hope this helped. I'm glad others are helping you also. This is the way it's supposed to work. May God bless you.
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Lilly, thankyou for sharing, that must feel amazing.. and Weakbuthopeful, yes I understand, thankyou once again for sharing with me.
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