help: with sabbath keepers forum

[HaReb]

We just have to acknowledge that in these end-times, G_d is doing what he does best - drawing to himself the true congregation of believers, both Jews and Gentiles, in all their varied traditions, who have come to recognise and worship Y'shua Ha Mashiach as the one, true, living Saviour of the world.

This is to be celebrated and all should be welcomed into the family, without man-made barriers being set in place to try and fine-tune what G_d is doing. Our calling is to reconcile man to G_d, not G_d to CF!

We are in very great danger of going back to Acts 15 all over again!

 

[christianmomof3]

IHebrew christians- those (jew or gentile)that hold the "christian" traditions yet identify themselves with us.

I believe you just discribed the hebrew christian perfectly. You are a born again Jew who does not participate in Judaism worship style.

I see two different definitions of a Hebrew Christian here from the same person. The first is one who "holds the Christian traditions" and the second is a Jew who is born again and who does not participate in the Jewish worship style.

Hi CoM, would you mind sharing what you do for worship and your main beliefs? I take it you worship on Sunday, does the church you go to not celebrate Easter or christmas? I know of a few like that.

Do you not keep Kosher because you never did or because your church is against it?

I hope I am not prying, just curious and happy the forum is working again to talk~!

The forum does seem to be working better now.
Is it fixed?
I was raised in Reform Judaism and never kept Kosher. I don't think it is wrong, just not necessary.
The group that I meet with does not celebrate Easter or Christmas. The group I meet with is not a Messianic congregation, but it is my understanding that many members of this forum do not meet with Messianic congregations and that is not a requirment for "membership" or participation here.
We do meet on Sunday, but do not consider it to be the Sabbath, and we have many home group and small group meetings throughout the week.
Here is a site about the group that i meet with http://www.localchurches.org/beliefs/index.html

 

[Talmidah]

We just have to acknowledge that in these end-times, G_d is doing what he does best - drawing to himself the true congregation of believers, both Jews and Gentiles, in all their varied traditions, who have come to recognise and worship Y'shua Ha Mashiach as the one, true, living Saviour of the world.

This is to be celebrated and all should be welcomed into the family, without man-made barriers being set in place to try and fine-tune what G_d is doing. Our calling is to reconcile man to G_d, not G_d to CF!

We are in very great danger of going back to Acts 15 all over again!

All of that may be true. But this is an internet message board, nothing more. A place for people to enjoy themselves and chat with others. Many do not want to argue or debate, just chat with people who have similar practices. If having different sub forums will help to foster an environment that will make others more comfortable, what is the harm? This isn't church or government mandated segregation. People who are strict about eating kosher and keeping biblical holidays need a place where nobody is telling them that they are Judaizers, legalistic or putting themselves under the law. And those who don't practice those things need a place to chat where people are not telling them that they are lawless, guilty of not obeying God, or whatever else they might be told. For those who want to engage in debate, there is surely room for that outside of these 'safe havens'.

 

[HaReb]

O well, thats another post has disappeared! Thought this was all working OK!

What I said was that there is clearly a deeply felt need that some would like a more open situation so that they can learn from what others do/say.

To close people off into groups as suggested takes us back to Acts 15 or to ghettoes where only those who think the same can be found and no one grows!

I think Talmidah makes too simple a deal of this.

 

[Talmidah]

O well, thats another post has disappeared! Thought this was all working OK!

What I said was that there is clearly a deeply felt need that some would like a more open situation so that they can learn from what others do/say.

To close people off into groups as suggested takes us back to Acts 15 or to ghettoes where only those who think the same can be found and no one grows!

I think Talmidah makes too simple a deal of this.

I sincerely apologize if I have offended you or anyone. That is certainly never my intent. Its just that I have sat here for months and watched good people hurt and offended. On both sides of the issue. It is painful to see.

I simply don't see that this is closing people off into ghettoes. Nobody is mandating that people stay in those subforums. The main forum (if I'm understanding the plan correctly) will be open for everyone to fellowship with each other, ask questions, etc. The subforums will be there for those who don't want to have to defend their practices. Some people truly like to just come online and spend some time chatting with likeminded people. Others thrive on talking to people and learning about different beliefs and practices. And for many people, it changes based on what season of their life they are in, what's going on at home or on the job. The way it is now, people are constantly on edge, fending off what they perceive as attacks and simply want a safe haven to not have to do that.

I'm sorry if I'm making too simple a deal out of this. I just truly don't see the harm in allowing people the choice of how they want to spend their online time here.

 

[HaReb]

Talmidah,

No offence taken and, hopefully, none given by me, either - just debating the issue and showing concern for those who have expressed a wish to the contrary; I can see their point and think it is a perfectly valid point to raise.

 

[Lulav]

Thank you for answering, after reading thorough that I see why you really can't be pigeon holed into those descriptions. If this is where you came to belief then it is understandable why you don't think you fit this, but the 99% of Christianity will, with the traditions and such. I see that part of your churches mission is to correct the past and restore to the original way and that is a good thing. This is what the hope for MJ was I think for many but has fallen into the same pit as Traditional Christianity.

I like their stand on Regeneration, Separation,and Sanctification, something I know Yeshua taught, and really should be present in MJ.

I like this very much as well


Beliefs & Practices

Who is your leader?

Our unique leader is Christ. We have no official, permanent, organized human leadership. Furthermore, there is no hierarchy of any kind and no worldwide leader. We regard no person as infallible, and we do not follow anyone blindly. On the contrary, we follow only those whose teaching and practice is in accordance with the truth of God’s Word. Those who take the lead do not lord it over the saints, but rather shepherd them in love. Likewise, those who serve the Lord do not control the churches, but rather serve them as bondslaves of Christ in the ministry of the living Word.

In fact this sounds very similar to my ex husband's church.

I have a few questions, if you don't mind,

I read about the way you do 'communion' , is this allowed by visitors to partake or must you be a verified member of this body to partake in it, thus 'proved' you are in good standing and a true believer?

Is there music to accompany your singing?

Is it a non profit org, a 501C member?

I really am impressed by what I read, not all but from what I've read this has good foundation.

I see two different definitions of a Hebrew Christian here from the same person. The first is one who "holds the Christian traditions" and the second is a Jew who is born again and who does not participate in the Jewish worship style.

The forum does seem to be working better now.
Is it fixed?
I was raised in Reform Judaism and never kept Kosher. I don't think it is wrong, just not necessary.
The group that I meet with does not celebrate Easter or Christmas. The group I meet with is not a Messianic congregation, but it is my understanding that many members of this forum do not meet with Messianic congregations and that is not a requirment for "membership" or participation here.
We do meet on Sunday, but do not consider it to be the Sabbath, and we have many home group and small group meetings throughout the week.
Here is a site about the group that i meet with http://www.localchurches.org/beliefs/index.html

 

[christianmomof3]

Thank you for answering, after reading thorough that I see why you really can't be pigeon holed into those descriptions.

thank you!

I have a few questions, if you don't mind,

I read about the way you do 'communion' , is this allowed by visitors to partake or must you be a verified member of this body to partake in it, thus 'proved' you are in good standing and a true believer?

Is there music to accompany your singing?

Is it a non profit org, a 501C member?

I don't want to derail the thread, but will answer briefly.
If someone is a visitor and wants to take communion, we let them. In general, they should be baptised believers and if they ask, we will tell them that. Our children do not partake of the bread and wine until they are baptised.

Some of the music we sing can be found at this site:
http://www.hymns.net/
We use piano in the adult meetings and accoustic guitars with the children and young people and we all sing - there is no choir.

I have no idea about the non profit status. I imagine it is - when I shop for the church I can use a tax id numer.

I am glad that you enjoyed the site!

 

[Lulav]

Thanks, I see it is a bit different that his church. I think they called themselves something like the believers in the L-RD Jesus Christ. They would not allow participation in communion by newcomers even if someone there could vouch for them, they would pass the basket right by us and not let us even pass it! I think though that they allowed the children, not sure, it was so loong ago. They also wouldn't allow any music, or any worldly clothing, all the woman wore dresses, no pants, the men weren't allowed to even wear bell bottoms ( now I am dating myself! )

I noticed there was something on the site that mentioned the Brethern, are you an offshoot of that?

I didn't see anything about the Sabbath, how is that regarded?

Thanks again!

 

[christianmomof3]

The meaning of the Sabbath is seen as resting in God. Here are a few quotes about it:

When man was damaged by the fall, this rest was lost. At this point, we need to consider John chapter five, the case of the enlivening of the impotent man. John 5:9 says, “And immediately the man became well, and picked up his bed and walked. Now it was the Sabbath on that day” (Recovery Version). In enlivening the impotent man, the Lord did something which, according to the Jewish regulations, was not permitted on the Sabbath day. As a result, the Jews persecuted the Lord Jesus. Verse 16 says, “And for this the Jews persecuted Jesus and sought to kill Him, because He did these things on the Sabbath” (Recovery Version). On the Sabbath day, they sought to kill Jesus. Do you believe that anyone who is seeking to kill a person could be at rest? Do you think that all those persecuting Jews had rest in their hearts? I do not believe it. In verse 17 we see the Lord’s answer to the Jews: “My Father is working until now, and I am working” (Recovery Version). The Lord seemed to be saying, “You are keeping the Sabbath, but My Father is working. The Sabbath that He had on the seventh day has been lost because man has been damaged. As long as man has not been recovered, My Father is still working. Look at this poor man. He has been lost, spoiled, ruined, and corrupted by the enemy of God. How can My Father rest? You may rest according to your tradition, but you don’t have the real rest. While you say you keep the Sabbath, you don’t know what the Sabbath really means. You do not have rest, do you? Neither does My Father have rest. So, My Father is still working, and I am working too. This is why I am here. I have come here to do My work. Don’t you know that the Sabbath has been lost, that the Sabbath on which God was satisfied has been lost, destroyed by the enemy of God? Don’t you know that God lost what He had gained? My Father is working until now. Since Genesis 3, My Father has never stopped working because the man who satisfied Him has been damaged.” How we need to be impressed with the real significance of the Sabbath! The significance of the Sabbath is that God is satisfied with man when man expresses and represents Him. When there is a situation in which man expresses God and represents Him, that day is the Sabbath to God.

When God rested on the seventh day, Adam also rested. Likewise, when God has no rest, man has no rest either. In John chapter four, the Lord Jesus was laboring because He was hungry. Moreover, both He and the Samaritan woman were thirsty. Was there any rest there? No, there was no rest because man had not yet been gained by God for His expression and representation. Not until man has been gained by God to express and represent Him can God and man have rest. If in the church life today all the brothers and the sisters go their own way and no one goes God’s way, there will be no rest, even if we come together in a very active way. In such a case, there is not the wonderful church life. The church life is a life in which man is gained by God on earth for His expression and representation. When this situation appears, we all shall be in the rest, because God will be satisfied to see Himself expressed and represented through a group of human beings. Whenever this happens on earth so many angels in heaven will be rejoicing for God’s satisfaction. How do we know when God is satisfied and at rest? We know it because our spirit is satisfied. Now we know the real meaning of the Sabbath rest: it is the satisfaction of God with man in having gained man to express and represent Him on earth. Whenever such a situation appears, that is the Sabbath, and both God and man are satisfied and rested. This is the Sabbath rest.

quotes are from the Life-Study of Hebrews message 18
http://www.ministrybooks.org/life-studies.cfm

Here is a site about the Bretheren
http://www.johndarby.org/

 

[Ivy]

I simply don't see that this is closing people off into ghettoes. Nobody is mandating that people stay in those subforums. The main forum (if I'm understanding the plan correctly) will be open for everyone to fellowship with each other, ask questions, etc. The subforums will be there for those who don't want to have to defend their practices.

I can certainly understand the need for people to have a safe spot where they can just fellowship with likeminded people and not have argumentative outsiders disturbing that. I'm sure that is very frustrating.

 

[visionary]

If you have any suggestions of a better name for those who are believers in the messiah in Judaic style and understanding

and for those who are messiah in a more christian style and understanding, we sure could use your imput.

Want both parties to be able to identify with a group of like minded.

 

[openhearts]

If you have any suggestions of a better name for those who are believers in the messiah in Judaic style and understanding

and for those who are messiah in a more christian style and understanding, we sure could use your imput.

Want both parties to be able to identify with a group of like minded.

Now in this movement for almost 4 years, coming from a Baptist background and loving the "history lesson" and learning from the Torah all the time, I tend to tell people I am a Messianic Believer. (vs Hebrew Christian, Messianic Jew) For a long time, I struggled with that box on a questionairre that asks for "religious preference". What do you put there??? And so now, I just finally came up with MB. That seems to cover my convictions at this time; not following man's input, or Christian holidays and we are enjoying learning about and participating in the Jewish tradition, but still feeling like an outsider looking in. And totally believing that He is the Messiah, the annointed One, sent for all. We (especially my husband, are hesitant to "give up our old traditions to take on new "Jewish" ones". So we are focusing on G-ds word and trying to live by that. I understand that I am grafted in, but still trying to figure out where I fit in.....this movement is a new beginning, it is exciting to be apart of and I can't wait to see where it all leads and how our decendants will further carry it on.
Shalom, Pam

 

[HaReb]

Yeah,
Another vote for the single title 'Messianic Believer'! We're getting there.