help with research - "simony"

[FallingWaters]

I know someone who is researching the subject of celibacy vs married priesthood in Latin Rite Roman Catholicism. I read this post from Polycarp1 but he doesn't remember where the info comes from... only that he gleaned it from a forum. He said I should ask here.

Where can I find the actual evidence which proves Polycarp1's statement which I placed in bold? Does anybody know? In other words, what's the original source of that information? My friend would like to see it for herself.

Actually, except for the word "silly," the Catholic hierarchy would agree with you. It's a Law of the Church, subject to change by the Pope at any time in his own good judgment.

As people have noted, even the Latin Rite Catholics have a few married priests, converts from Episcopalianism. The Orthodox Churches, all the Eastern Rite churches in the Catholic Church, the Old Catholics and Polish National Catholics, the Episcopalians and other Anglicans, all have married priests.

The original intent was to prevent simony, when priestly office was a valuable commodity. Today, it's largely because they believe it difficult to balance needs of parish and family without neglecting one or the other.

 

[JoabAnias]

You may be able to find it here:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

 

[Davidnic]

Well the two are tied together at least chronologically. They were major issues around 1074. And often addressed at the same councils.

It (celibacy) was then an issue through the Lateran councils until reaffirmed at the Council of Trent (1563). So the whole think spanned a long time. With much attention during the Lateran Councils (in particular 1123-1139).

As to a direct link to simony...that is likely since the impetus for celibacy was the reform of the clergy by Gregory VII and that included both. Now this was basically a bottom line clarification of rulings from 1059 and 1063.

So although the two issues likely became entwined in a time of clerical abuse, I can't readily think of simony as being the driving factor for celibacy. But I can see the relation between the two that would have...in 1074 pressed for a hard-line on both issues in a greater cleanup. Another change to clear up corruption was that Princes were cut out of any role in the naming of priests.

So you can see where it would be related. Guy with a family..a noble...buys an office of the priesthood from a prince who greases the wheels and gets it all squared away. Rome was having fits about it all. In every way that mattered Rome did not see them as priests. But the people were getting caught in the middle. And the "priests" because Rome did not always hold these guys were getting valid orders....were not being (shall we say) the most faithful of spouses. So Rome was in a tizzy...and a pretty angry one. So we have a flurry of activity on celibacy and simony 1059-1074.

And that helps because Gregory VII makes all new priests pledge celibacy and cuts princes out of any role at all, even recommending priests. Actually this will eventually set up the seminary system we have today...but that will not really happen until St. Charles Borromeo does it at Trent in the 1560's. But it does push toward a centralized system with standards set by Rome overseen by local Bishops in order to provide the formation of priests...and kicking out royal authorities. This will begin the exacerbation of strife between the crowns of Europe and the Church that will grow for a few hundred years and eventually play a huge role in the Reformation when many princes see the Protestant faiths as ways to have "national" faiths with more control from the crowned heads again. Of course some of the reformers had some things to say to the princes about that. But that is a different issue.

But...the problem persists with already married priests and some new ones who try to slide by. Simony is a greater problem by the early 1100's. But both are causing issues.

For all intents and purposes, It all comes to a head in 1123 at the First Lateran Council. Although Trent will reaffirm...it is pretty much all over in 1123 with the shouting and cleanup until 1139. and reaffirmed by Trent in 1563.

 

[Mom2Alex]

Medieval Sourcebook: Gregory VII: Simony and Celibacy 1074

A Source Book For Medieval History

 

[FallingWaters]

Davidnic, thank you for that mini history lesson! That was very helpful!

 

[Davidnic]

Davidnic, thank you for that mini history lesson! That was very helpful!

You're welcome. I'm lucky I remembered most of my Church History class...and got the rest together from the Medieval source book and the histories of Church councils.

 

[QuantaCura]

It does bear pointing out that celibacy in regards to the clergy was a very widespread custom in many particular Churches for many centuries earier, it was just not universally so until the dates given. Of course, Our Blessed Lord and St. Paul both exhort men to it and most, if not all, the Apostles practiced it. Saints like Jerome and Epiphanius in the early centuries write as if celibacy for all clerics is the general rule (even if a married man is ordained, he would take up celibacy) although, at least Epiphanius admits that in some locales celibacy is not the rule for priests and deacons, but that this is unfortunate. St. Bede expresses a similar attiude some centuries later. St. Cyril of Jerusalem encourages celibacy for clerics, but doesn't seem to give a hard and fast rule.

On the other hand, there are other saints in different locales during the early period, like St. Clement of Alexandria who speaks of married men becoming clerics and continuing to have children and that being a praisworthy thing.

Anyway, the point is, that the rule for celibacy didn't come out of nowhere in the 1000s, it was just universally codified at that point. It also always had a spiritual justification, not just one of practicality.

 

[Davidnic]

It does bear pointing out that celibacy in regards to the clergy was a very widespread custom in many particular Churches for many centuries earier, it was just not universally so until the dates given. Of course, Our Blessed Lord and St. Paul both exhort men to it and most, if not all, the Apostles practiced it. Saints like Jerome and Epiphanius in the early centuries write as if celibacy for all clerics is the general rule (even if a married man is ordained, he would take up celibacy) although, at least Epiphanius admits that in some locales celibacy is not the rule for priests and deacons, but that this is unfortunate. St. Bede expresses a similar attiude some centuries later. St. Cyril of Jerusalem encourages celibacy for clerics, but doesn't seem to give a hard and fast rule.

On the other hand, there are other saints in different locales during the early period, like St. Clement of Alexandria who speaks of married men becoming clerics and continuing to have children and that being a praisworthy thing.

Anyway, the point is, that the rule for celibacy didn't come out of nowhere in the 1000s, it was just universally codified at that point. It also always had a spiritual justification, not just one of practicality.

True indeed. It has a long line of spiritual justification.

 

[FallingWaters]

Medieval Sourcebook: Gregory VII: Simony and Celibacy 1074

A Source Book For Medieval History

Thank you for those links!

I'm a little confused though because the book doesn't come right out and say that Simony was the motivating reason which prompted the Celibacy rule. Was it or was it not? And if not, then what was the reason at that time for implementing the Celibacy rule?

Anybody know?

 

[Veritas]

Just wanted to say "hi", FW! I haven't seen you much since last year's AI thread. Can you believe that it's only a couple more months away from the start of AI 2009?!

 

[Mom2Alex]

Thank you for those links!

I'm a little confused though because the book doesn't come right out and say that Simony was the motivating reason which prompted the Celibacy rule. Was it or was it not? And if not, then what was the reason at that time for implementing the Celibacy rule?

Anybody know?

I do not think that the two topics were related, unless you consider the inheritance of the Church properties, etc. by the priest's sons to be simony. In effect, the priests had created a 'hereditary priesthood'. I think that simony was merely mentioned in the same document because the Church was correcting the abuse of both marriage in the priesthood and simony at the same time but it was merely coincidence. Read this article. Though it is long, it is a very important article tracing celibacy among the priesthood back to the beginning of the Church.

However, this patristic ideal of clerical chastity was severely tested in practice during the tumultuous centuries of the Early Middle Ages. The barbarian invasions and the rise of feudalism not only transformed the political and social structure of Western Europe, they also profoundly affected clerical life, especially the tenuous honor system where clerical marriage co-existed with clerical chastity. The almost complete de-urbanization of Western Europe weakened the control of the Church over its lands and clergy. Most priests no longer lived in the cities but were now scattered across the countryside, away from the oversight of their ordinaries. Furthermore, the practice of lay investiture filled the episcopacy with untrained, worldly men, who were interested only in the lands and revenues that came with their office, and who essentially functioned as vassals for their lords or kings. These men often openly lived with their wives and were not bothered if their clergy did the same. Likewise, the establishment of local churches by nobles tended to corrupt the priests who were chosen to staff them and further fueled the trend of lay investiture. Many priests lived in poverty and had to support themselves by farming, which meant that they needed the help of wives and children. These men then willed their benefices to their sons, which resulted in the creation of a hereditary priesthood. The intermarriage of clerical families ensured the continuation of the hereditary priesthood, while the intermarriage of clerical and lay families increased lay interference in ecclesiastical affairs and the lay acquisition of church lands.

Happy reading!

 

[FallingWaters]

Thank you!

But that brings me back around to the original thing I quoted Polycarp1 as saying, namely that Simony was the motivating factor behind changing the rule about celibacy. I wonder why he thinks that they are related.

 

[Mom2Alex]

Probably because they were mentioned together by Pope Gregory, he believes they were intertwined. Or perhaps he believes that a 'hereditary priesthood' is the purchasing of a blessing in some way. Show him this thread and ask him what he thinks.