Help with reformed theology

[ellisb2]

I was rasied in a southern baptist church and I work with a calvinist who tells me about the reformed theology. What I need help with the whole election thing. He says that were elect because God is sovereign he knows all and does all. So if we go to him he already knew we were going to. So does that make us alreay saved? I'm so confused about it, it makes sence to me sometimes but then again just because he knows were going to asked to be saved, don't mean that he has already saved us........right?

 

[DeaconDean]

I'm not going to say very much about his subject. It is a very hotly debated subject here. I would say this, it really would be best if you studied for yourself the doctrine of election and came to your own conclusions. I can tell you what I was taught in seminary and what I have studied and someone would come in and say that is totally wrong. So before I say what I believe election is, I will supply this link with a couple hundred articles on election written from Augustine to J.I. Packer. This material runs the gambit because it does offer both sides of the argument, both positive and negitive. Check it out and read and study and come to your own conclusions. Then come back and lets discuss it.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/election.html

One more little thought, for a reformed view of election, try asking in the Semper Reformanda threads.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Erinwilcox]

Hi! I'm glad that you have an interest in these things--it might be better, though, if you'd move it to Semper Reformanda--there are many good Calvinistic brethren there who could answer your questions (and they don't usually hang around here).

 

[ellisb2]

I wanted to know what others thought about it.

 

[mlqurgw]

There are really only 2 views concerning biblical theology in the Christian thought: free-will and free grace. I will say at the outset that I believe in free grace. I will also say that men's opinions are just that, opinions. The question is what do the Scriptures say concerning election? There is only one truth and that is what is clearly taught in the Scriptures. We are all naturally inclined to free-will theology and the view that it is up to us to get saved because we all naturally think we must do something. Free grace puts man in the dust at the feet of the Savior begging mercy and destroys all pride. No one who reads their Bible denies that it teaches election they disagree on what it teaches about election. I believe that the Scriptures are clear that God is sovereign in salvation and has chosen to be merciful to some of Adam's fallen race and leaves the rest to their will and way. He purposed to save a people before the foundation of the world, Rom. 9, Eph. 1, 2Tim. 1, He chose whom He would be merciful to and gave them to His Son, John 6:38,39 and the Son came in the fullness of time and actually saved all those whom the Father had given Him. The Spirit now comes and makes that salvation known in the heart of all the elect sinners saved by Christ, John 14:8-11. So we can say that we were saved in the purpose of God before He spoke this world into existence, we were actually saved in time when Christ hung on the cross and we are made aware of that salvation at some point in our lives. The Bible is very clear that it is God who does all in salvation and that man is simply the recipient of God's work in Christ Jesus.
The SBC was founded as a people who believed in free grace and election.

 

[TwinCrier]

I would recommend not taking the opinions of anyone on this board as this is an issue that your immortal soul depends on. Seek guidance from the bible and ask guidance from the Holy Spirit through prayer. You'll more likely find the truth than just going with whichever side has the most articulate argument at the moment.

 

[FallingWaters]

I was rasied in a southern baptist church and I work with a calvinist who tells me about the reformed theology. What I need help with the whole election thing. He says that were elect because God is sovereign he knows all and does all. So if we go to him he already knew we were going to. So does that make us alreay saved? I'm so confused about it, it makes sence to me sometimes but then again just because he knows were going to asked to be saved, don't mean that he has already saved us........right?

The reason you're confused is because it's confusing... TOO confusing in my opinion. Calvin had to do WAY too much thinking to come up with all that mumbo-jumbo.

When a Calvinist says "election" they are saying that God has chosen ahead of time to only save some people and it's their destiny to be saved. Everyone else is destined for hell. The reason that doesn't make sense it because then people seem more like robots than children with free choice. As you can see, I am not a Calvinist.

 

[ellisb2]

This is helping me! Thank you all so very much! I'm not tring to make anyone take sides if you will. I just needed to hear both sides of it. I talk to him a lot at work and he always talks about it. I don't talk to anyone else about it, that's why I started posting on here.

 

[mlqurgw]

The reason you're confused is because it's confusing... TOO confusing in my opinion. Calvin had to do WAY too much thinking to come up with all that mumbo-jumbo.

When a Calvinist says "election" they are saying that God has chosen ahead of time to only save some people and it's their destiny to be saved. Everyone else is destined for hell. The reason that doesn't make sense it because then people seem more like robots than children with free choice. As you can see, I am not a Calvinist.

Is that what you got from my post or is it from your misconception of the doctrine of election taught and believed by Calvinists? The robot argument is false and has nothing to do with what Calvinism actually teaches.

 

[Wizzer]

I was rasied in a southern baptist church and I work with a calvinist who tells me about the reformed theology. What I need help with the whole election thing. He says that were elect because God is sovereign he knows all and does all. So if we go to him he already knew we were going to. So does that make us alreay saved? I'm so confused about it, it makes sence to me sometimes but then again just because he knows were going to asked to be saved, don't mean that he has already saved us........right?

Hello,

Election is a very difficult topic. I wish there was an easy way out for you, but there is not. This is one where you are really going to have to spend some time and consider all the alternatives.

If I recall correctly, early in its history the southern baptist church believed in all (or most) of the points of calvinism (calvinsim is also known as reformed theology). Today there are some baptists who still believe all the ‘points’ of calvinism, but most modern baptists only hold to the last point of calvinism - that being once saved always saved. But I do agree with most calvinists in that all the points of calvinism stand or fall together; this puts most baptists in a precarious position: they (baptists) believe part of calvinism but not all of it.
Your question concerns election. Reformed theology, because of its belief in total depravity (the belief that mankind can not choose anything of spiritual significance) says that God must make men respond to His calling. And those thereby chosen by God, since they had no part in their response (according to calvinists), also can not choose to depart from Him - which is where the once saved always saved doctrine comes from. Through the years, most baptist have abandoned all but this last point of calvinism. (And baptists should dump this final, false teaching as well!)

Now the bible does teach something called ‘election’, but what it means by this is very much subject to debate. The reformists claims that the only way God can be sovereign (in ‘control’ of all things) is for God to control all decisions of significance. (This is a viewpoint driven more by human philosophy than solid biblical argument.)

Your mission, if you decide to accept it, is to find out what the alternative views of election are. Must God force each individual person to accept Him, or can people truly respond on their own to His calling. The calvinists will fight you tooth and nail if you decide that mankind has the ability to respond. Their whole system rests upon the notion that mankind can not respond to God. If I were to give you any advice at all, it would be to look at all the alternatives. Reformed theology is a mode of biblical interpretation which has as its foundation a certain philosophical perspective. If that philosophical perspective is right, then they are right, but if it is wrong, then their whole system of interpretation is wrong.

Sincerely,
Wizzer

 

[ellisb2]

Why does everyone attack the reformed view so much?

 

[Wizzer]

Why does everyone attack the reformed view so much?

Not everyone does. There are a great many who accept it, but for those who object to it, it is seen as a great distortion of truth. The gospel is no longer good news to the world - it is only good news to a preselect few - the rest having no chance to obtain mercy and forgiveness. And Jesus' death is not the pinnacle of God's mercy and love for mankind - the real pinnacle for calvinists is God's election of the individual before the foundation of the world.

 

[BBAS 64]

Why does everyone attack the reformed view so much?

Good Day, Ellisb

What is often attacked is strawmen, you have one here on this very thread.

"Must God force each individual person to accept Him, or can people truly respond on their own to His calling."

This is a strawman, no body that teachers the "Doctrines of Grace" say God forces. That is a straw man.

This statement still beggs the question why do some respond and some do not? Only reformed theology can answer that consitant with the scripture.

Ask you self this question,

Did God force Jonha to to Niniva?
Did God force Abimelech not to sin?

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[mlqurgw]

Why does everyone attack the reformed view so much?

As my good friend has already said they attack strawmen rather then truth. The reason for this is that unless they build strawmen they have no argument against it. Calvinism doesn't teach that man has no will ( the robot argument) but that his will is depraved and that he has no desire toward God. He must be given a new will to be able to freely choose Christ and willingly does once God has raised him from death to life ( born again). There has never been a believer that was forced against his will nor an unbeliever who desired Christ and was refused because of election.
The reason that so many hate the Doctrines of Grace is that it takes salvation out of the hands of sinners and puts it where it belongs, in the hand of God. Adam's sin was against God's right to be God and has not changed in the rebellion of sinners since. We will not bow to God as God so we make Him to be like us and twist His truth so that it suits our idea of who He ought to be.
People attack the Doctrines of Grace because they hate God.

 

[FallingWaters]

Is that what you got from my post or is it from your misconception of the doctrine of election taught and believed by Calvinists? The robot argument is false and has nothing to do with what Calvinism actually teaches.

I was not referring to your post.

 

[FallingWaters]

Hello,

Election is a very difficult topic. I wish there was an easy way out for you, but there is not. This is one where you are really going to have to spend some time and consider all the alternatives.

If I recall correctly, early in its history the southern baptist church believed in all (or most) of the points of calvinism (calvinsim is also known as reformed theology). Today there are some baptists who still believe all the ‘points’ of calvinism, but most modern baptists only hold to the last point of calvinism - that being once saved always saved. But I do agree with most calvinists in that all the points of calvinism stand or fall together; this puts most baptists in a precarious position: they (baptists) believe part of calvinism but not all of it.
Your question concerns election. Reformed theology, because of its belief in total depravity (the belief that mankind can not choose anything of spiritual significance) says that God must make men respond to His calling. And those thereby chosen by God, since they had no part in their response (according to calvinists), also can not choose to depart from Him - which is where the once saved always saved doctrine comes from. Through the years, most baptist have abandoned all but this last point of calvinism. (And baptists should dump this final, false teaching as well!)

Now the bible does teach something called ‘election’, but what it means by this is very much subject to debate. The reformists claims that the only way God can be sovereign (in ‘control’ of all things) is for God to control all decisions of significance. (This is a viewpoint driven more by human philosophy than solid biblical argument.)

Your mission, if you decide to accept it, is to find out what the alternative views of election are. Must God force each individual person to accept Him, or can people truly respond on their own to His calling. The calvinists will fight you tooth and nail if you decide that mankind has the ability to respond. Their whole system rests upon the notion that mankind can not respond to God. If I were to give you any advice at all, it would be to look at all the alternatives. Reformed theology is a mode of biblical interpretation which has as its foundation a certain philosophical perspective. If that philosophical perspective is right, then they are right, but if it is wrong, then their whole system of interpretation is wrong.

Sincerely,
Wizzer

Thank you for explaining it so well.

 

[FallingWaters]

Not everyone does. There are a great many who accept it, but for those who object to it, it is seen as a great distortion of truth. The gospel is no longer good news to the world - it is only good news to a preselect few - the rest having no chance to obtain mercy and forgiveness. And Jesus' death is not the pinnacle of God's mercy and love for mankind - the real pinnacle for calvinists is God's election of the individual before the foundation of the world.

Yeah. I just can't see God that way. God is a loving Father/Creator who pities His children, and Who is not willing that any should perish.

 

[mlqurgw]

I was not referring to your post.

OK. I asked because I thought that maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post and wondered if I had given the impression that you pointed out.

 

[ellisb2]

Yeah. I just can't see God that way. God is a loving Father/Creator who pities His children, and Who is not willing that any should perish.

So do you think He did not want Judas to perish? Or do you think after Judas betrayed Jesus he had a chance to still get to heaven?

 

[ellisb2]

Romans chapter 9 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.