Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
The evidence of how the anathemas of the original creeds affect the church even today, should be evidence enough of its reality.
You can’t receive something if it’s not available …and it wasn’t available until Pentecost. After all, why would Jesus tell them that…. when Thomas wasn’t even there.
So, your theory rests upon ...denying the first hand witness of John?
...and the inability of Ιησους to repeat John 20:21-23 for Thomas?
If Thomas HAD been there, we wouldn't even know these things about the Risen Lord:
John 20:24-29 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Ιησους came.[25] The other Disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust My hand into His side, I will not believe.[26] And after eight days again His Disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Ιησους, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27] Then saith He to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold My hands. And reach hither thy hand and thrust it into My side; and be not faithless, but believing.[28] And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and My God.[29] Ιησους saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.
And how poverty-stricken would we be then?
...in giving the disciples the authority to forgive...
I don't think they do, though. All they give the disciples is the authority to announce the forgiveness God has already made real.
That said, though, I agree that John is indicating a shift in emphasis from temple to Church.
But do you apply the same reasoning to retaining sins ???
Would the indwelling Holy Spirit not make known what was forgiven and what was retained ??
Is this not evidence that they did indeed receive the Holy Spirit as Jesus said?
We only announce what God has already done.
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
So, your theory rests upon ...denying the first hand witness of John?
...and the inability of Ιησους to repeat John 20:21-23 for Thomas?
If Thomas HAD been there, we wouldn't even know these things about the Risen Lord:
John 20:24-29 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Ιησους came.[25] The other Disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust My hand into His side, I will not believe.[26] And after eight days again His Disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Ιησους, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27] Then saith He to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold My hands. And reach hither thy hand and thrust it into My side; and be not faithless, but believing.[28] And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and My God.[29] Ιησους saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed. Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.
And how poverty-stricken would we be then?
(the Risen Lord has flesh... called a "side note"... sigh)I think if you had read my post the information of Thomas would be considered more of a side note. My post was really about the different scripture that Jesus had spoken about the outpouring.
It’s not as if John wrote this from first hand knowledge…this was revelation from Jesus Christ to John some 40 maybe 50 years later….But I do adhere to scripture as God breathed…Which is why I quoted scripture.
And like I stated ….by thinking it took place at this time in John 20:22 …You have to make up a narrative to substantiate different things…. and dismiss several scriptures that point to Pentecost ….
I did offer an alternative to the word wind ….but not conclusively….however ….If you want to hold your theory on the outpouring taking place in John…. Then you do realize that Judas Iscariot also was there…. and would have received the holy spirit.
(the Risen Lord has flesh... called a "side note"... sigh)
Matthew 10:3-7 first-hand knowledge: John and Matthew, called "witnesses" because they were "with Him in the beginning", John 15:26.
But what makes you think Judas Iscariot would have been there? Luke?
So who told Luke that stuff? Because it sure wasn't John or Matthew.
Matthew 26:31-32 Then saith Ιησους unto them, All ye shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.[32] But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.
Matthew 28:5-10 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye, for I know that ye seek Ιησους which was crucified.[6] He is not here, for He is risen as He said. Come see the place where the Lord lay,[7] and go quickly and tell His Disciples that He is risen from the dead. And behold, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see Him: Lo, I have told you.[8] And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy, and did run to bring His Disciples word.[9] And as they went to tell His Disciples, behold, Ιησους met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held Him by the feet and worshipped Him.[10] Then said Ιησους unto them, Be not afraid: go tell My brethren that they go into Galilee and there shall they see Me.
Matthew 28:16 Then The Eleven Disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Ιησους had appointed them.
Went away from where to Galilee? Had to be someplace close, right?
Matthew 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.
John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the Disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Ιησους and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace unto you.
If Thomas HAD been there, we wouldn't even know these things about the Risen Lord:
John 20:27 Then saith He to Thomas, reach hither thy finger and behold My hands. And reach hither thy hand and thrust it into My side, and be not faithless, but believing.
Matthew 28:16 Then The Eleven Disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Ιησους had appointed them.
[...] Matthew 28:1, John 20:19
Your "biblical research... ...honest thing" doesn't match my criteria.Jhn 20:22 ….which is what started this thread… offers a similar challenge as Mat 27:5 regarding Judas death.
Verse :5 seemingly puts Judas death shortly after the crucifixion. But several verses show Judas alive afterwards …up until Jesus was taken up into the clouds.
In biblical research, when you have several clear verses and one unclear or conflicting verse ….you don’t toss the clear ….in favor of the unclear …you look at the unclear to determine if it’s in translation or misunderstanding….. That is the honest thing to do with Gods Word.
In the case of Mat 27:5 dealing with Judas…. the translation gives what appears to be Judas hanging himself ….and then to match up with Act 1:18 where “his bowels gushed out” commentators have come up with a few scenarios to mesh these two verses.
The problem is ….The Bible clearly shows Judas alive for some time afterwards.
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
The Apostles received the Holy Spirit for the sake of their ordination as apostles, in which they were given the authority in Christ's name and stead to pronounce forgiveness of sins (Holy Absolution), which is why pastors who continue to sit in the seat of the Apostles still do this to this very day.
Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit was poured out in fulfillment of what had been said, that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit poured out on all flesh. The inauguration of the Church in her sacred and God-given mission. We receive the Holy Spirit through the Means God has given His Church, so we see the promise made in Acts 2:38 that the one who is baptized is forgiven of their sins and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (the gift being the Spirit Himself), and we see that through the laying on of hands by the Apostles the Holy Spirit is given. This is why the Church baptizes and chrismates, one is received into the Church through the Sacrament of Holy Baptism and are anointed with oil, have hands laid upon them to receive the Holy Spirit.
These rites are not merely symbolic religious rituals, but are rites which couch and contain God's instituted means of grace; this is the ordered ways which God Himself says He acts to accomplish His will and purposes. E.g. There is forgiveness of sins in baptism not because of some magical water power, but because God Himself declares in baptism the forgiveness of sins because here in and with the water is God's word and Christ Himself (see Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:27, and Colossians 2:12-13).
This is God's ordered way for the Church to operate: There are ministers of Word and Sacrament who are called to preach Law and Gospel, Law to condemn sin and the Gospel to forgive. The Church receives disciples through Holy Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit (and this is by the authority of Christ "in the name of Jesus Christ") and being instructed in all the things of Jesus. We come together around Christ present in Word and Sacrament to hear the word preached, we confess our sins and receive the word of our forgiveness, we meet together at the Lord's Table where He gives Himself, His own flesh and blood which was sacrificed for us on the cross. Through this we are sustained in faith, we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we are being justified and sanctified. As we live lives as disciples in the world, obeying Christ and loving our neighbor; holding on to the hope which we have received, in faith, as we endure whatever trials we may encounter in this fallen age.
In all of this we announce the kingdom of God, the forgiveness of sins, the ruination of death, hell, and the devil, and the hope of the resurrection and the renewal of all things in the Age to Come.
This is Christianity. Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. Sins are forgiven, debts are canceled, death is defeated, and the devil has been brought to ruin. We have life and peace and unity with God in and through Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. And what we have received, we announce to the whole world; and the love with which we have been loved we now love all God's creatures as peacemakers and lovers of our neighbor. -CryptoLutheran
post: 76819343, member: 293637"]The Apostles received the Holy Spirit for the sake of their ordination as apostles, in which they were given the authority in Christ's name and stead to pronounce forgiveness of sins (Holy Absolution), which is why pastors who continue to sit in the seat of the Apostles still do this to this very day. It would have been nice if you had shown the verse you think this happened, since you didn't I am wanting to take this statement and the one following it which I will place here because what I am going to show you is when the apostles received the Holy Spirit and from Peters own words that Acts 2:38 is not telling us that the Holy Spirit comes into someone life after they are baptized, but after repentance of the their unbelief and confessing Jesus as their Savior as told us in Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast.
We both agree with Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Except we would disagree with whether he is saying one receive the Holy Spirit having believed, as I do, or after their being baptized in water(assuming that is what you saying when one receives the Holy Spirit.
Before I show you my point in the following, it is too much to enter it in context because it is too long, it would be good for anyone to read from the beginning of the 10th chapter of Acts down to where I will start. Let's go to see what Peter says starting in Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 45And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47“Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have? ” 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. This is the same way it happened at Pentecost, the various ethnic groups of people that believed, heard them speaking in their own languages and they believed and were filled with the Holy Spirit and then they were baptized as Peter says here.
So scripture doesn't seem to set the standard for all people. I simply showed you in scripture that the Holy Spirit comes on a child of God when they get saved, and not when they are baptized.
Baptism like good works will follow in the life of all Christian as a sign and assurance that one indeed is in the faith.
One cannot teach that one received the Holy Spirit after water baptism and not after first believing and receiving the Holy Spirit and say that is scriptural.
The word of God is to be obeyed, it sets the standards. Each has to decide if they will follow the word of God or whatever someone else wants to declare is right, but I do not believe that teaching error is approved by the Lord. We walk by faith and faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17. One must decide for themself if they will obey or not, I have no more to say on this topic. Every tub sets on its own bottom. Have a great day, Ps 119:9 thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee.
And according to Scripture there's no difference between the two. When someone receives baptism they are receiving salvation, they are being saved. See, e.g., 1 Peter 3:21.
Good works flow from the life of the Christian out of obedience to God's commandments, as the power and work of God in our lives through sanctification. But Baptism isn't a human work of any kind, it is God's work. The works of men (such as good works in obedience, faith, and love) lack any power to save; or more specifically they lack any power to justify. That is why no one is justified before God on the basis of their works. That is the meaning of Ephesians 2:9 "not of works so that none may boast".
further depth if you would like me to do so.
I will once again start from below this above, all you have done is shown scripture and turned the words to fit your interpretation without actually reading the word that are written. Baptism only follows salvation, I showed you that in Acts 10, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and Peter said, that is exactly what happened at Pentecost, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and he then was asking the Jews who said Gentiles could not be baptised, who can hinder these from being baptized. You need to just actually read the words in the text. But I can see the scripture gives you a problem of what you teach not being correct. This is all I am going to say on this subject, each that reads it can be their own judge as to what the scripture says. And one last point, you made it sound as if I said we were not saved by grace through faith, I showed you the same verses you posted as one of my text verses, Eph 2:8 for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast, and you then try to say I did not understand the verse by quoting the same text. Every tub sets on its own bottom.
I will once again start from below this above, all you have done is shown scripture and turned the words to fit your interpretation without actually reading the word that are written. Baptism only follows salvation, I showed you that in Acts 10, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and Peter said, that is exactly what happened at Pentecost, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and he then was asking the Jews who said Gentiles could not be baptised, who can hinder these from being baptized. You need to just actually read the words in the text. But I can see the scripture gives you a problem of what you teach not being correct. This is all I am going to say on this subject, each that reads it can be their own judge as to what the scripture says. And one last point, you made it sound as if I said we were not saved by grace through faith, I showed you the same verses you posted as one of my text verses, Eph 2:8 for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourself, it is a gift of God not of works lest any man should boast, and you then try to say I did not understand the verse by quoting the same text. Every tub sets on its own bottom.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?