Help with John 1:12-13

[friend of]

I feel like the more I've been reading scripture lately, the more I've been finding contradictions.

John 1:12

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. To recieve something or someone implies that a decision is made to accept that person or thing, right? To accept or reject anything necessitates free will, does it not?

John 1:13

...children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God

This very next verse states the opposite of previous in that it denies a decision of receptation was made by a person and inserts God's Sovereignty. How does this work? Does He allow us to accept His terms or does He override and make the decision for us?

It even says we are not born of a husband's will, but God is supposed to be our husband and it is His will that we be saved, for if it is not, then whose will could it possibly be?

Can anyone smarter than me explain this?

 

[Brother-Mike]

On our level, the level of Man, we are free to believe and are told many times to believe (and keep on believing) in his name.
By doing so, we demonstrate that we were God's Children all along. Clear as mud right?

Imagine it this way - you are told to believe, so you become a diligent Christian and believe the rest of your life. When the books are opened on you at Judgement (and mind you these are books written from before Creation) and you peeked over God's shoulder you'd see "FriendOf is one of my children, and will believe once the Spirit comes upon him".

If on the other hand you believed for a while, but then your faith withered, you'd see "FriendOf is not one of my children, although he will believe for a period".

Your choice to believe is making a decision outside of time - as God planned all along.

 

[HTacianas]

I feel like the more I've been reading scripture lately, the more I've been finding contradictions.

John 1:12

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. To recieve something or someone implies that a decision is made to accept that person or thing, right? To accept or reject anything necessitates free will, does it not?

John 1:13

...children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God

This very next verse states the opposite of previous in that it denies a decision of receptation was made by a person and inserts God's Sovereignty. How does this work? Does He allow us to accept His terms or does He override and make the decision for us?

It even says we are not born of a husband's will, but God is supposed to be our husband and it is His will that we be saved, for if it is not, then whose will could it possibly be?

Can anyone smarter than me explain this?

God's will is to offer salvation to anyone who is willing to accept it. But it still requires the conscious choice to accept it. 2 Peter 3:9 goes on the say that God is not willing for anyone to perish but people still perish due to their own choices.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I feel like the more I've been reading scripture lately, the more I've been finding contradictions.

John 1:12

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. To recieve something or someone implies that a decision is made to accept that person or thing, right? To accept or reject anything necessitates free will, does it not?

John 1:13

...children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God

This very next verse states the opposite of previous in that it denies a decision of receptation was made by a person and inserts God's Sovereignty. How does this work? Does He allow us to accept His terms or does He override and make the decision for us?

It even says we are not born of a husband's will, but God is supposed to be our husband and it is His will that we be saved, for if it is not, then whose will could it possibly be?

Can anyone smarter than me explain this?

To receive is like someone is giving you something, you just need to trust in a spiritual sense, (as with a spiritual gift) and reach your hands out to receive it in the physical sense. (as with a physical gift)

Say someone reads this, but the gift hasn't been given yet, because later in John child birth is used as a parable to describe it. So they "receive it" of their "own decision" ... but it is not yet time for them to be born again.

That's what comes to mind when I read those two verses and your question.

 

[David's Harp]

I feel like the more I've been reading scripture lately, the more I've been finding contradictions.

John 1:12

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. To recieve something or someone implies that a decision is made to accept that person or thing, right? To accept or reject anything necessitates free will, does it not?

John 1:13

...children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God

This very next verse states the opposite of previous in that it denies a decision of receptation was made by a person and inserts God's Sovereignty. How does this work? Does He allow us to accept His terms or does He override and make the decision for us?

It even says we are not born of a husband's will, but God is supposed to be our husband and it is His will that we be saved, for if it is not, then whose will could it possibly be?

Can anyone smarter than me explain this?

Hi friend of! The way I understand these verses are that you make the decision to accept and believe in Christ first, then God grants you the right to become a child of God. You cannot become a child of God by your own (or anyone else's) decision. I think the distinction here is believing first, then becoming a child of God - through God's grace only.
I hope this helps. God Bless.

 

[friend of]

Hi friend of! The way I understand these verses are that you make the decision to accept and believe in Christ first, then God grants you the right to become a child of God. You cannot become a child of God by your own (or anyone else's) decision. I think the distinction here is believing first, then becoming a child of God - through God's grace only.
I hope this helps. God Bless.

Wouldn't believing first be classified as a decision though?

 

[David's Harp]

Wouldn't believing first be classified as a decision though?

Yes. But what is the decision?
Is it not to believe in Christ?

The decision to believe in Christ comes before 'becoming a child of God'.
I think where you may be going wrong is seeing the decision in verse 13 (which relates to 'deciding' to become a child of God) with the decision to accept Jesus.
Forgive me if I'm seeing this the wrong way, or not explaining myself well.

I edited this post @friend of

 

[friend of]

The decision to believe in Christ comes before 'becoming a child of God'.

I don't know anymore. So many people I've talked to just recently about this topic insist that God is the one who draws us to Himself first before we accept. That a dead man cannot make a positive decision for Christ at all, and that God has to empower us to make that decision. Thanks for your reply though. I'm pretty confused right now about the whole thing.

 

[Clare73]

I feel like the more I've been reading scripture lately, the more I've been finding contradictions.
John 1:12
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Now, correct me if I'm wrong. To recieve something or someone implies that a decision is made to accept that person or thing, right? To accept or reject anything necessitates free will, does it not?
John 1:13...children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God

This very next verse states the opposite of previous in that it denies a decision of receptation was made by a person and inserts God's Sovereignty. How does this work? Does He allow us to accept His terms or does He override and make the decision for us?
It even says we are not born of a husband's will, but God is supposed to be our husband and it is His will that we be saved, for if it is not, then whose will could it possibly be?

Can anyone smarter than me explain this?

Do we have to be smarter than you to reply? I hope not.

No one comes to Christ that God does not enable to do so (Jn 6:65), and God, for the sake of the best means to the best end (i.e., his purpose), does not enable all to do so.

 

[David's Harp]

I don't know anymore. So many people I've talked to just recently about this topic insist that God is the one who draws us to Himself first before we accept. That a dead man cannot make a positive decision for Christ at all, and that God has to empower us to make that decision. Thanks for your reply though. I'm pretty confused right now about the whole thing.

Sorry, didn't mean to further confuse matters. I agree that God does draw us, but we haven't become children of God until we decide to accept Christ.

That a dead man cannot make a positive decision for Christ at all, and that God has to empower us to make that decision.

I'm not sure about "a dead man cannot make a positive decision for Christ". How can we be born again until we have accepted Christ? You can't be born again before deciding to accept Jesus.

In regards to God drawing us, the phrase "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" springs to mind.
Any other way of looking at this, and you're saying that God is effectively deciding for you!

 

[friend of]

Do we have to be smarter than you to reply? I hope not.

I'll take that as a compliment.

No one comes to Christ that God does not enable to do so (Jn 6:65), and God, for the sake of the best means to the best end (i.e., his purpose), does not enable all to do so.

This is what I'm grappling with. I decided rather definitively recently that I cannot be a Calvinist as I strongly believe in individual, God-given free will. I don't know if believing in free will logically precludes acceptance of election, but it seems like it very well could, which puts me into another conundrum. Tossed to and fro just when I thought I was settling.

 

[Clare73]

I'll take that as a compliment.

This is what I'm grappling with. I decided rather definitively recently that I cannot be a Calvinist as I strongly believe in individual, God-given free will. I don't know if believing in free will logically precludes acceptance of election, but it seems like it very well could, which puts me into another conundrum. Tossed to and fro just when I thought I was settling.

Perhaps understanding free will as presented in Scripture can help. . .

Man does not have unlimited free will--the ability to make all moral choices; e.g., he cannot choose to be always sinless in thought, word and deed.

So Biblically, free will is the ability (power) to freely and voluntarily choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

However, the human will does not operate in a vacuum. It is governed by the disposition, what one prefers.

God works in the disposition to give one to prefer his will, and the individual then freely and voluntarily chooses what he prefers.

 

[friend of]

If on the other hand you believed for a while, but then your faith withered, you'd see "FriendOf is not one of my children, although he will believe for a period".

Why would God in His Sovereignty draw me (or anyone) to Jesus only to reject me (us) later? That sounds kind of capricious and I don't believe God is like that. If He intends to save a person, does He not see it through to the end?

 

[Brother-Mike]

Why would God in His Sovereignty draw me (or anyone) to Jesus only to reject me (us) later? That sounds kind of capricious and I don't believe God is like that. If He intends to save a person, does He not see it through to the end?

Both Matthew and Acts describe a “general call” to many but only the Elect receive the “effectual call”. The former may believe for a while, but ultimately do not go on believing and are thus not in Christ. e.g. Matthew 22:14.

 

[Brother-Mike]

Both Matthew and Acts describe a “general call” to many but only the Elect receive the “effectual call”. The former may believe for a while, but ultimately do not go on believing and are thus not in Christ. e.g. Matthew 22:14.

… God gave you the “creaturely freedom” to believe, and to go on believing. It’s in your control enough to be your choice AND for you to be judged if you don’t believe. He’s sending nobody to Hell that didn’t reject his extended hand.

 

[Jonaitis]

I feel like the more I've been reading scripture lately, the more I've been finding contradictions.

John 1:12

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. To recieve something or someone implies that a decision is made to accept that person or thing, right? To accept or reject anything necessitates free will, does it not?

John 1:13

...children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God

This very next verse states the opposite of previous in that it denies a decision of receptation was made by a person and inserts God's Sovereignty. How does this work? Does He allow us to accept His terms or does He override and make the decision for us?

It even says we are not born of a husband's will, but God is supposed to be our husband and it is His will that we be saved, for if it is not, then whose will could it possibly be?

Can anyone smarter than me explain this?

Monergism.

 

[Jonaitis]

Both Matthew and Acts describe a “general call” to many but only the Elect receive the “effectual call”. The former may believe for a while, but ultimately do not go on believing and are thus not in Christ. e.g. Matthew 22:14.

Yes, this effectual calling, though it moves us to act, is the Spirit operation. When God changes the disposition of a sinner's heart, there begins a new will that draws them to follow after Him:

"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."
- Ezekiel 36:26-27

This begs a different question: if it is the Spirit that "causes" us to obedience from the moment of conversion, then does that mean that God must act in men for men to obey God? It must be, then, that there is a sort of suggested apotheosis involved here. I am not suggesting that man can possibly reach the true status of God, but that God's purpose for man is to ultimately live as God in this humanity. In other words, the saying is true from Athanasius: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." Glorification is a sort of divinization of man's character, restoring the marred and damaged image that we all were originally born with. So it is as if God became a man of like-nature that men may become God of like-character.

 

[friend of]

… God gave you the “creaturely freedom” to believe, and to go on believing. It’s in your control enough to be your choice AND for you to be judged if you don’t believe. He’s sending nobody to Hell that didn’t reject his extended hand.

I guess you don't believe in Irresistible Grace then?

 

[friend of]

Why would there be a general call if it's going to be redundant? I'm thinking of a few verses here.

Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

We are justified by faith. So if anyone comes to Christ in faith and is justified, why would God allow them to fall away? It says God will glorify them.

Romans 11:29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

I believe this means that God doesn't change His mind when He decides to regenerate a person by giving them faith.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Justification is the beginning and this verse says God will continue the work He started in the believer when they came to faith.

 

[Brother-Mike]

I guess you don't believe in Irresistible Grace then?

Irresistible Grace is the Effectual Call. The general call is resistible.