Help with Greek Reve 11:2!!!!

[LittleLambofJesus]

Help!!! I need the correct translation for the greek word I have bolded in Reve 11:2. This is rather important to me in my studying these 2 verses. Most translations have "without".

Is it "within" or "without" as within would make more sense since it is being "cast out outside. Thanks.

2081. esothen es'-o-then from 2080; from inside; also used as equivalent to 2080 (inside):--inward(-ly), (from) within, without.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one without?[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

(Greek NT - Byz./Maj.) Revelation 11:2 kai thn aulhn thn exwqen tou naou ekbale exw kai mh authn metrhshV oti edoqh toiV eqnesin kai thn polin thn agian pathsousin mhnaV tessarakonta kai duo

(Greek NT - W-H ) Revelation 11:2 kai thn aulhn thn exwqen tou naou ekbale exwqen kai mh authn metrhshV oti edoqh toiV eqnesin kai thn polin thn agian pathsousin mhnaV tesserakonta [kai] duo

(Greek NT - Textus Rec.) Revelation 11:2 kai thn aulhn thn eswqen tou naou ekbale exw kai mh authn metrhshV oti edoqh toiV eqnesin kai thn polin thn agian pathsousin mhnaV tessarakonta duo

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

"exwqen" - without - is the best reading. It has the best manuscript support. Also the word "aulhn" means outer courtyard - the idea is to leave out the measurement of the outer courtyard.


Lamorak Des Galis

 

[woobadooba]

Help!!! I need the correct translation for the greek word I have bolded in Reve 11:2. This is rather important to me in my studying these 2 verses. Most translations have "without".

Is it "within" or "without" as within would make more sense since it is being "cast out outside. Thanks.

2081. esothen es'-o-then from 2080; from inside; also used as equivalent to 2080 (inside):--inward(-ly), (from) within, without.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one without?[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

(Greek NT - Byz./Maj.) Revelation 11:2 kai thn aulhn thn exwqen tou naou ekbale exw kai mh authn metrhshV oti edoqh toiV eqnesin kai thn polin thn agian pathsousin mhnaV tessarakonta kai duo

(Greek NT - W-H ) Revelation 11:2 kai thn aulhn thn exwqen tou naou ekbale exwqen kai mh authn metrhshV oti edoqh toiV eqnesin kai thn polin thn agian pathsousin mhnaV tesserakonta [kai] duo

(Greek NT - Textus Rec.) Revelation 11:2 kai thn aulhn thn eswqen tou naou ekbale exw kai mh authn metrhshV oti edoqh toiV eqnesin kai thn polin thn agian pathsousin mhnaV tessarakonta duo

It wouldn't be within because there is no courtyard 'inside' the temple. Therefore, it is 'without' (meaning outside of the temple).

Honestly, it may be good to know Greek, but common sense speaks volumes.

By the way, don't take what I said about common sense the wrong way. I do not mean to imply that you don't have common sense; rather, what I mean to say is that knowing the Greek is not as critical as some make it out to be. For the most part, one could get by on basic exegesis and logic.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It wouldn't be within because there is no courtyard 'inside' the temple. Therefore, it is 'without' (meaning outside of the temple).

Honestly, it may be good to know Greek, but common sense speaks volumes.

By the way, don't take what I said about common sense the wrong way. I do not mean to imply that you don't have common sense; rather, what I mean to say is that knowing the Greek is not as critical as some make it out to be. For the most part, one could get by on basic exegesis and logic.

Hm ok. I believe it may be the Court of the Priest inside Herod's temple but outside the Sanctuary if that is the case. This would be cast out of the Temple then, correct?

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one without?[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

 

[woobadooba]

Hm ok. I believe it may be the Court of the Priest inside Herod's temple but outside the Sanctuary if that is the case. This would be cast out of the Temple then, correct?

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one without?[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

I stand corrected. There was a court for the priests, as well as one for Israel, and for the women.

However, when the Bible speaks of the outer courtyard it is referring to the one which belongs to the Gentiles. In fact, the wording of it indicates this quite clearly:
"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."(Rev 11:2 KJV)

Hence it can't be referring to the court of the priests, since that is not the court "without" the sanctuary/temple.

Take a look at this: http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/JEWISH_TEMPLESchematic_Plan_of_the_Temple.htm

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

rather, what I mean to say is that knowing the Greek is not as critical as some make it out to be. For the most part, one could get by on basic exegesis and logic.

And as someone who has formally studied the original languages and happily continues to study them....

...I agree wholeheartedly!



Lamorak Des Galis

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I stand corrected. There was a court for the priests, as well as one for Israel, and for the women.

However, when the Bible speaks of the outer courtyard it is referring to the one which belongs to the Gentiles. In fact, the wording of it indicates this quite clearly:
"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."(Rev 11:2 KJV)

Hence it can't be referring to the court of the priests, since that is not the court "without" the sanctuary/temple.

Take a look at this: http://www.bible-history.com/jewishtemple/JEWISH_TEMPLESchematic_Plan_of_the_Temple.htm

That is of course your Assumption. Btw, what Altar is shown in Revel 11:1?

And note Luke 1 concerning the Holy Place Zacharias went into to burn incense. I believe this Temple in Revelation is the same one Jesus came to in the first century. The Priesthood became as bad if not worse then the "gentiles". They are of course no longer around today.

Matthew 26:3 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace/Court [#833] of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,

Luke 1:8 And it came to pass, in his acting as priest, in the order of his course before God, 9 according to the custom of the priesthood, his lot was to make perfume, having gone into the sanctuary of the Lord, 10 and all the multitude ofthe people were praying without/outside [#1854 exw], at the hour of the perfume. 11 And there appeared to him a messenger of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of the perfume, 12 and Zacharias, having seen, was troubled, and fear fell on him;

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one without?[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

 

[woobadooba]

That is of course your Assumption. Btw, what Altar is shown in Revel 11:1?

My assumption?

Did you or did you not ask whether it was referring to the court within or without?

I showed you that the text is as plain as day in referring to it as being the court without.

Then you had stated that you believe that it is referring to the temple of Herod, and that it may be referring to the court of the priests. I showed you that the text clearly states that the court without, even according to the Temple of Herod, is that which belongs to the Gentiles.

So, did you come here for answers or to teach us something?

If you came here for answers then you've gotten them, since both me, and another person had informed you that it is referring to the court without (outer courtyard).

If you are wanting to teach us something then just come out with it. However, if the teaching is founded on the idea that the court without as spoken of in Rev. 11:2 is really referring to the court of the priests, then you will not find agreement here for such a teaching, since that is not what the text says.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you came here for answers then you've gotten them, since both me, and another person had informed you that it is referring to the court without (outer courtyard).

So you are saying it cannot be the court of the priest just outside the Sanctuary?

I study revelation mainly using Exodus {Bondage} and Joshua {Victory} so perhaps that is why I can view it like the OT Camp in the Wilderness.

I am through here and thanks for your input.

Matthew 24:1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple [#2411].

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one without?[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854]

Matthew 26:3 Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace/Court [#833] of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take [it] to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already,

 

[woobadooba]

That is of course your Assumption. Btw, what Altar is shown in Revel 11:1?

What does the altar have to do with your original question as to whether it is referring to the court within or without?

Incidentally, this is what you had said in post #4:

Hm ok. I believe it may be the Court of the Priest inside Herod's temple but outside the Sanctuary if that is the case. This would be cast out of the Temple then, correct?

So you believe that it is referring to Herod's Temple, yes?

The Bible seems to be indicating that this reference is to another temple.

Could it be referring to the Sanctuary of God in heaven?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What does the altar have to do with your original question as to whether it is referring to the court within or without?

Incidentally, this is what you had said in post #4:

So you believe that it is referring to Herod's Temple, yes?

The Bible seems to be indicating that this reference is to another temple.

Could it be referring to the Sanctuary of God in heaven?

That is an interesting idea. The "sactuary" could symbolically be the "holy camp/city" of the Saints in Christ. Thanks for bringing that up. Thoughts?

Matthew 24:1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple [#2411].

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one without?[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

Reve 20:They went up on the breadth of the LAND and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

 

[woobadooba]

So you are saying it cannot be the court outside of the priest just outside the Sanctuary?

It is referring to the court without (the outward courtyard) which was designated to the Gentiles. Rev. 11:2 makes this clear when it says that it is "given to the Gentiles". Hence it can't be referring to the court of the priests.

I study revelation mainly using Exodus {Bondage} and Joshua {Victory} so perhaps that is why I can view it like the OT Camp in the Wilderness.

But in post #4 you had stated that you believe it is referring to Herod's Temple, yes?

I am through here and thanks for your input.

OK. Sorry I disrupted your thought.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matthew 24:1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple [#2411].

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one without?[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

Reve 20:They went up on the breadth of the LAND and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

It is referring to the court without (the outward courtyard) which was designated to the Gentiles. Rev. 11:2 makes this clear when it says that it is "given to the Gentiles". Hence it can't be referring to the court of the priests.

But in post #4 you had stated that you believe it is referring to Herod's Temple, yes? OK. Sorry I disrupted your thought.

The court of the Priest could have been giving over to the "gentiles" maybe as both the Apostate Jews and Romans destroyed the City and Temple I think. The Sanctuary is rather interesting though now that you mentioned it.

You didn't disrupt my thoughts, you rather "enhanced" them a bit. I view 2 types of Priesthoods/Cities in revealtion but I am still translating it and one reason I had a question on that one greek word. Blessings.

Luke 21:21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 "For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Ezkeiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying Them, in order to Cleanse/purify the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the GOD.

 

[Beasley]

You might study the outer court. The sacrifices were preformed in the outer court and then the blood was carried into the temple.

The Shekinah Glory had departed the Holy of Holies long before Herod.

 

[pehkay]

The altar here is the golden altar of incense, because it is with the temple; it is not the bronze altar of sacrifice in the court that is outside the temple (Rev 11:2)

The earthly temple and Jerusalem on earth will be given over to be trampled by Antichrist and the Gentiles.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matthew 24:1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the Temple [#2411].

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar [Golden Altar of Incense]and the Ones worshipping in it 2 Andthe Court [#833][With the Laver and Altar of Burnt Offerings], the one without?[#2081] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be Casting- Out! [#1544] Out-side [#1854]

The altar here is the golden altar of incense, because it is with/"in" the temple; it is not the bronze altar of sacrifice in the court that is outside the temple (Rev 11:2)

Yep that is how I read it.

You might study the outer court. The sacrifices were preformed in the outer court and then the blood was carried into the temple.

The Shekinah Glory had departed the Holy of Holies long before Herod.

The Sanctuary/Tabernacle isn't mentioned much in the NT, mainly just the Temple Complex. Does the Gospels ever mention the High Priest going into the Most Holy Place anywhere?

For example, here is the curtain being torn in 2 and do you view this as the outer curtain or inner curtain?

Mark 15:38 and the veil of the sanctuary/naos? was rent in two, from top to bottom,

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.