• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Help? Regarding Salvation

samxjoy

Newbie
Apr 29, 2010
3
0
✟15,113.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
I am a Christian who has been struggling with a question for some time now. I believe that we are saved through Christ's redeeming blood and that he loves each one of us, and that we should strive to be close to him throughout our lives and to be as Christ-like as we can, as we are commanded.

However, I have the hardest time with an idea that many Christians hold which is that if you do not acknowledge (verbally, mentally) Christ as your savior within your life time, you are damned. When I think about a poor human being alone and dieing of starvation in some third world country, I can not imagine that just because they never fully acknowledged an acceptance of Jesus Christ (prayed "the prayer" or otherwise) that an all-knowing, all-loving God would have no mercy on them and they would be damned to hell.

I understand that sin is sin, and all sin is seen as equal; therefore a murderer's sin is supposedly the same as a small child's lie, but would my God really damn a little girl with a kind heart in a middle eastern country to hell because she grew up in the only faith that she knew?

Some have said to me, "if those children were saved regardless of their faith, what purpose would there be for Christian missionary?" I believe that there are many purposes for missionaries and bringing the knowledge of Christ to the world that may not know of him is one of them, but I still have this question that I can not surpass, regardless.

Do not be afraid to give me your honest opinion, respectfully please.
 

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟52,334.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I understand that sin is sin, and all sin is seen as equal; therefore a murderer's sin is supposedly the same as a small child's lie, but would my God really damn a little girl with a kind heart in a middle eastern country to hell because she grew up in the only faith that she knew?

As far as popular christianity is concerned yes, they are all doomed. Thankfully we are not going to the final judgment to be judged by pop christian beliefs. If you look at Hebrews 4:

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

I believe the writer of Hebrews is referencing "The Word" as John 1:1 references "The Word of God." It speaks of Jesus being the most righteous judge period. He is One that divides the heart and intentions of man, and righteously judges a mans heart.. It is to this judge that we must account for ourselves, and not to pop christian beliefs.

If you can believe or Trust in Christ to take away the sins of those who know to openly accept Him, then trust Him to do the righteous thing for those who never had a chance to know Him.
 
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
39,044
9,489
✟420,838.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Well, we're saved by grace through faith in Christ - not ignorance. If that little girl would be saved, then the entire Great Commission would be counterproductive and Jesus himself would be a liar (John 3:18).

Now, for those who are actually, genuinely concerned about such people, if they want to be part of the solution, they will become missionaries. They will either go out and spread the message or at least pray for such people on a regular basis.

As far as what God can do, he has been known to interrupt Muslims during their prayer times and lead them to Christianity in the form of visions. We must not think that he is wronging anybody by having them be born in a certain time or place.

Furthermore, it's more God's loss than any of ours. Yes, there are people who complain about these other people. But God made them and died for their sins. He set up the system we're in. He has more to lose than you or I if people like that little girl do not join him in Heaven. If there's a loophole, he made it. In any case, it should not keep people here in the West from worshiping him. We've heard of him. Our response to the gospel is our responsibility.
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
I think part of the problem is that its the wrong question. The bible doesn't set out to describe who does or does not go to heaven. Having described what the problem is, it sets out to tell the story of what God is doing to put the world to rights - a story coming to its climax in Jesus - and invites us to get involved. It has something to say about what it means to reject the Kingdom of God, and the importance of bringin that Kingdom to everybody, but doesn't set out to answer your question.
 
Upvote 0

JohnRabbit

just trying to understand
Site Supporter
Feb 12, 2009
4,383
320
i am in alabama
✟100,288.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
:prayer:
I am a Christian who has been struggling with a question for some time now. I believe that we are saved through Christ's redeeming blood and that he loves each one of us, and that we should strive to be close to him throughout our lives and to be as Christ-like as we can, as we are commanded.

However, I have the hardest time with an idea that many Christians hold which is that if you do not acknowledge (verbally, mentally) Christ as your savior within your life time, you are damned. When I think about a poor human being alone and dieing of starvation in some third world country, I can not imagine that just because they never fully acknowledged an acceptance of Jesus Christ (prayed "the prayer" or otherwise) that an all-knowing, all-loving God would have no mercy on them and they would be damned to hell.

I understand that sin is sin, and all sin is seen as equal; therefore a murderer's sin is supposedly the same as a small child's lie, but would my God really damn a little girl with a kind heart in a middle eastern country to hell because she grew up in the only faith that she knew?

Some have said to me, "if those children were saved regardless of their faith, what purpose would there be for Christian missionary?" I believe that there are many purposes for missionaries and bringing the knowledge of Christ to the world that may not know of him is one of them, but I still have this question that I can not surpass, regardless.

Do not be afraid to give me your honest opinion, respectfully please.

samxjoy, i hear this all the time too, and there seems to be so much confusion about the matter. so let's look at your post and analyze it paragraph by paragraph.

i don't think anyone would have a problem written there agreeing with what was written.

in the second paragraph, the name Jesus is the only given to men by which to be saved. but people lived and died before the Christ was even born. obviously, if they didn't hear or know of Christ in their lifetime, then there has to be sometime in the future that this will be addressed (hint, the final judgement). remember:

Revelation 20:4-6 ( NKJV ) 4And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for £a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

the distinction between those who are resurrected at Christ's second coming and those who remain dead during the thousand year reign is your clue. we are living i a day of salvation, but not the only day of salvation. there is a judgement day coming. those who are in the church are being judged now!

sin is not seen as equal in the eyes of God. there some sins which are greater than others:

John 19:11 ( NKJV ) 11Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin

the third paragraph implies that the Christian efforts are in futility. just know that the non believer is not saved, but at the same time, he is not condemned either, he is simply not judged. there is a judgement day coming.
 
Upvote 0

mulimulix

Free Thinker
Apr 20, 2010
391
4
Sydney, Australia
✟15,676.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Labor
However, I have the hardest time with an idea that many Christians hold which is that if you do not acknowledge (verbally, mentally) Christ as your savior within your life time, you are damned. When I think about a poor human being alone and dieing of starvation in some third world country, I can not imagine that just because they never fully acknowledged an acceptance of Jesus Christ (prayed "the prayer" or otherwise) that an all-knowing, all-loving God would have no mercy on them and they would be damned to hell.

This is (one of) the problem I have with many religions. Also by this, babies would be sent to hell for their lack of faith despite not even saying their first words yet! How can this be tolerated by anyone? It's like punishing a baby for not saying sorry when they drop some food on the floor. It is simply unfair. There is no other way of putting it.

Also, for someone like me, I think it is also unfair on the level that god has not shown his presence to me but many others say he has shown his presence to them. It's not my fault god hasn't shown his presence to me, and because of this, it's common sense not to believe in him!
 
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟52,334.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It's not my fault god hasn't shown his presence to me, and because of this, it's common sense not to believe in him!

Do you believe that you are any different than any of those who God has revealed himself to, and yet they still choose not to believe? That said how can you even be sure God has not revealed Himself to you if you do not believe in Him in the first place?

I would also like to ask because you admit of having the same question as the OP did you read any of the answers given? Or are you simply choosing to underline the problem, and ignore the solution?
 
Upvote 0

mulimulix

Free Thinker
Apr 20, 2010
391
4
Sydney, Australia
✟15,676.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Labor
Do you believe that you are any different than any of those who God has revealed himself to, and yet they still choose not to believe? That said how can you even be sure God has not revealed Himself to you if you do not believe in Him in the first place?

I would also like to ask because you admit of having the same question as the OP did you read any of the answers given? Or are you simply choosing to underline the problem, and ignore the solution?

If I cannot determine what is and what isn't a sign from god, how is anyone supposed to? It shouldn't be an ambiguous sign, otherwise, I shouldn't be punished for interperating something the wrong way.

I did read many of the things people posted on my thread but some of them were simply too long. I am a firm believer that it is not up to me to go out and search for the evidence. I do, anyway because I am interested in it and have still failed to find ANYTHING convincing for the existence of any god, let alone the Christian god. I have literally spent days reading and watching info on things for and against god
 
Upvote 0

drich0150

Regular Member
Mar 16, 2008
6,407
437
Florida
✟52,334.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If I cannot determine what is and what isn't a sign from god, how is anyone supposed to?
Perhaps that is the Idea. God doesn't need to "prove" anything ,even if you need proof for yourself. "Signs" are only intended for those who seek His direction. They are not meant to be indisputable proof, so that one is forced to believe.

It shouldn't be an ambiguous sign, otherwise, I shouldn't be punished for interpreting something the wrong way.
We have absolutely no scriptural texts saying that we will either be praised or punished for not interpreting "signs." in our personal lives.


I did read many of the things people posted on my thread but some of them were simply too long. I am a firm believer that it is not up to me to go out and search for the evidence. I do, anyway because I am interested in it and have still failed to find ANYTHING convincing for the existence of any god, let alone the Christian god. I have literally spent days reading and watching info on things for and against god

You will never (in this life) know of indisputable evidence that forces you to believe in God. (Even when Jesus walked amongst us people were able to find reasons not to believe.)
There is always evidence, but as with anything else it is contestable. We are apart of a collective Faith, which means we have found belief in something we do not full understand. Because of this belief we are allowed to see "signs" that other can not. These signs are helping the faithful to mark their way home.
 
Upvote 0

JohnRabbit

just trying to understand
Site Supporter
Feb 12, 2009
4,383
320
i am in alabama
✟100,288.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
If I cannot determine what is and what isn't a sign from god, how is anyone supposed to? It shouldn't be an ambiguous sign, otherwise, I shouldn't be punished for interperating something the wrong way.

I did read many of the things people posted on my thread but some of them were simply too long. I am a firm believer that it is not up to me to go out and search for the evidence. I do, anyway because I am interested in it and have still failed to find ANYTHING convincing for the existence of any god, let alone the Christian god. I have literally spent days reading and watching info on things for and against god

so u believe that some thing or some force that possess no intelligence produced all that u see around u. astounding! everything i see screams design and intelligence.
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,352
Winnipeg
✟251,568.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
However, I have the hardest time with an idea that many Christians hold which is that if you do not acknowledge (verbally, mentally) Christ as your savior within your life time, you are damned.

Why do they hold this idea?

Speaking of Jesus the Scriptures say:

Acts 4:12
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
(Bracketed words mine).

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.


John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Romans 10:8-15
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"


When I think about a poor human being alone and dieing of starvation in some third world country, I can not imagine that just because they never fully acknowledged an acceptance of Jesus Christ (prayed "the prayer" or otherwise) that an all-knowing, all-loving God would have no mercy on them and they would be damned to hell.

This would only be a tragedy - and unjust - if they actually wanted to know God and He withheld Himself from them. God makes a promise in His Word that if we seek Him with our whole hearts He will be found of us.

James 4:8
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.


Jeremiah 29:13
13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.


Many are the stories I've heard over the years of people in remote places desiring to know God deeply to whom God has sent His messenger to fulfill that desire. The lengths to which God has gone in response to a person's genuine hunger to know Him in some instances is quite astonishing!

The reality is that, generally, human beings suppress the truth of God in their minds and hearts that they may live as they want rather than as He wants. Paul the apostle explains:

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse...


There are no little girls in third world countries, alone and dying, who yearn to know God but from whom He withholds a saving knowledge of Himself.

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


From this and the other verses I've cited, we understand that God is not hiding Himself from anyone who would know Him. And He will do all that is necessary to reach with the gospel any who will respond positively to it.

I understand that sin is sin, and all sin is seen as equal; therefore a murderer's sin is supposedly the same as a small child's lie, but would my God really damn a little girl with a kind heart in a middle eastern country to hell because she grew up in the only faith that she knew?

Is this little girl sinless? Is she perfectly holy as God is? How kind is her heart if she is guilty of sin? Not kind enough for a perfectly holy God. And this is always the problem: As good and righteous as we may be, we are never sufficiently so for an absolutely holy God, which is why we so desperately need a Saviour.

Some have said to me, "if those children were saved regardless of their faith, what purpose would there be for Christian missionary?" I believe that there are many purposes for missionaries and bringing the knowledge of Christ to the world that may not know of him is one of them, but I still have this question that I can not surpass, regardless.

I admire the sympathetic nature out of which your questions arise. But sympathy untempered by truth can be destructive. If people can be saved by other means than the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross, then Christ's sacrifice for us has been in vain. He died for nothing. There is not one shred of evidence in Scripture, however, to support the notion that Jesus died for nothing, that some other way exists by which people can enter into relationship with their holy Creator. Those who would suggest to you that there is another way are preaching what the apostle Peter described as a "damnable heresy." Beware.

Peace.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mulimulix

Free Thinker
Apr 20, 2010
391
4
Sydney, Australia
✟15,676.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Labor
so u believe that some thing or some force that possess no intelligence produced all that u see around u. astounding! everything i see screams design and intelligence.

HAHA! You obviously haven't looked very far for evidence against the teleological argument. Here are a couple:

1. Our involuntary breathing system function by an increase of carbon dioxide, not a lack of oxygen. This is a problem in high altitude areas like the Himalayas or Andes because unless you consciously breathe, you are slowly going to die of lack of oxygen.
2. There is a muscle in the foot (I have forgotten the name) which is possessed by some of the human population which is absolutely useless. It serves no function whatsoever; hence it being only in part of the human population (if you know anything about evolution).

the list goes on...

All I can say on behalf of your god in this case...'woops'
 
Upvote 0

JohnRabbit

just trying to understand
Site Supporter
Feb 12, 2009
4,383
320
i am in alabama
✟100,288.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
HAHA! You obviously haven't looked very far for evidence against the teleological argument. Here are a couple:

1. Our involuntary breathing system function by an increase of carbon dioxide, not a lack of oxygen. This is a problem in high altitude areas like the Himalayas or Andes because unless you consciously breathe, you are slowly going to die of lack of oxygen.
2. There is a muscle in the foot (I have forgotten the name) which is possessed by some of the human population which is absolutely useless. It serves no function whatsoever; hence it being only in part of the human population (if you know anything about evolution).

the list goes on...

All I can say on behalf of your god in this case...'woops'

u can cite this or that and maybe we could have a debate on it. but the question remains to u.

do you think that an unintelligible "whatever" produced everything u see around u? and where do the intangible things like love, hate, music, and the list goes on, come from?


Psalms 53:1 ( NKJV ) 1 The fool has said in his heart,

“There is no God.”

They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity;

There is none who does good.

Proverbs 18:2 ( NKJV ) 2 A fool has no delight in understanding,

But in expressing his own heart.
 
Upvote 0

mulimulix

Free Thinker
Apr 20, 2010
391
4
Sydney, Australia
✟15,676.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Labor
u can cite this or that and maybe we could have a debate on it. but the question remains to u.

do you think that an unintelligible "whatever" produced everything u see around u? and where do the intangible things like love, hate, music, and the list goes on, come from?


Psalms 53:1 ( NKJV ) 1 The fool has said in his heart,

“There is no God.”

They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity;

There is none who does good.

Proverbs 18:2 ( NKJV ) 2 A fool has no delight in understanding,

But in expressing his own heart.

The thing with The Big Bang is that there a bucket load of evidence which says the universe began in a single point about 14 BYA but next to no evidence for intelligent design 6000 years ago or whenever.

Calling me corrupt is simply insulting. The purpose of that verse is to insult someone. I am actually offended by this verse, and I am not easily offended at all. I genuinely get angry when the Bible insults someone who does not believe in this or that or says I am going to spend eternity in hell for not believing in a god, no matter how good I am in my life.

I cannot put into words how frustrated I get over how selfish and arrogant this god is! You can say whatever you want but your god is a selfish, arrogant jerk with an enormous ego! There is no other way to put it! He simply wants everyone to worship and love him or else he will infinitely punish you. I don't care if god was to give me indisputable evidence that he exists right this second, I do not want to be a part of such a selfish being
 
Upvote 0

JohnRabbit

just trying to understand
Site Supporter
Feb 12, 2009
4,383
320
i am in alabama
✟100,288.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
The thing with The Big Bang is that there a bucket load of evidence which says the universe began in a single point about 14 BYA but next to no evidence for intelligent design 6000 years ago or whenever.

Calling me corrupt is simply insulting. The purpose of that verse is to insult someone. I am actually offended by this verse, and I am not easily offended at all. I genuinely get angry when the Bible insults someone who does not believe in this or that or says I am going to spend eternity in hell for not believing in a god, no matter how good I am in my life.

I cannot put into words how frustrated I get over how selfish and arrogant this god is! You can say whatever you want but your god is a selfish, arrogant jerk with an enormous ego! There is no other way to put it! He simply wants everyone to worship and love him or else he will infinitely punish you. I don't care if god was to give me indisputable evidence that he exists right this second, I do not want to be a part of such a selfish being

i wasn't trying to be insulting. i was just pointing out that God says something about people with ur mindset. i apologize if i offended u, was not my intent.

u say that God is selfish and all he offers u is the sacrifice of his son and eternal life. now, if that's selfish then i don't know.

the bible does not say when God created everything, who knows? could have been billions of years ago!

yet u won't answer my question to u about the intangibles of the universe, like love. how is that created from this physical forum we live in?
 
Upvote 0

mulimulix

Free Thinker
Apr 20, 2010
391
4
Sydney, Australia
✟15,676.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Labor
i wasn't trying to be insulting. i was just pointing out that God says something about people with ur mindset. i apologize if i offended u, was not my intent.

u say that God is selfish and all he offers u is the sacrifice of his son and eternal life. now, if that's selfish then i don't know.

the bible does not say when God created everything, who knows? could have been billions of years ago!

yet u won't answer my question to u about the intangibles of the universe, like love. how is that created from this physical forum we live in?

With the evidence I have at the moment, I believe the universe started without an apparant cause. So yes, I suppose you could call it an unintelligent cause but then you could also say a star comes from an unintelligent source, a nebula. Or mountains are made from an unintelligent source, tectonic plates.

What is the difference?
 
Upvote 0