Help Question

[Debi1967]

If someone said "is that we are not ALL sinners because we inherited the sin of Adam. We are ALL sinners, because we ALL sin. We do not inherit sin, we commit sin ourselves." how would I answer that?
The truth is we are sinners because we inherited it and therefore are born into a sinful state. So that is why we commit sin.
Debi

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Well, I think that some don't believe that we inherit sin, but that our natures are weakened by the sin of Adam and Eve. So that we don't inherit Original sin, but twe do inherit its effects??

That was actually no help at all, but maybe a place to clarify what they are saying?

In the Sacred Heart of Jesus,
Shannon

 

[boughtwithaprice]

If someone said "is that we are not ALL sinners because we inherited the sin of Adam. We are ALL sinners, because we ALL sin. We do not inherit sin, we commit sin ourselves." how would I answer that?
The truth is we are sinners because we inherited it and therefore are born into a sinful state. So that is why we commit sin.
Debi

the theology that you are describing is Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism, to answer it, you need to look up the meaning of those terms.

St Augustine refuted Pelagius long ago, but his theology keeps coming around even 1600-1700 years later

 

[Cecilia]

Well, I think that we didn't exactly inherited their exact sins...we inherited the ability TO sin. With Satan knowing that Adam and Eve could be tempted, he realized that anyone in their line, could be tempted as well. So he started trying harder. If I'm wrong, someone please correct me...I'm really curious as to the correct answer here. Thanks!

 

[Debi1967]

the theology that you are describing is Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism, to answer it, you need to look up the meaning of those terms.

St Augustine refuted Pelagius long ago, but his theology keeps coming around even 1600-1700 years later

OK are you saying I am wrong or the other person ...... I am confuddled

 

[KennySe]

If someone said "is that we are not ALL sinners because we inherited the sin of Adam. We are ALL sinners, because we ALL sin. We do not inherit sin, we commit sin ourselves." how would I answer that?
The truth is we are sinners because we inherited it and therefore are born into a sinful state. So that is why we commit sin.
Debi

Here's what I would do.

Open up the 'Catechism of the Catholic Church" and search for what it says on "original sin".

of course, what is explained with notes to Church Councils and to Church Fathers will be considered non-evidence by the "Bible-only"ers. But the Catechism has also key scripture verses.

So, we read begining with paragraph 388
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm#III

pararagraph 406 speaks of Pelagianism (which broughtwithaprice mentioned in his post above)

Hewbrews 2:14
Rom 5:19

But I digress... let's get back to the question at hand.

If someone said "is that we are not ALL sinners because we inherited the sin of Adam. We are ALL sinners, because we ALL sin. We do not inherit sin, we commit sin ourselves." how would I answer that?

My answer: The Catholic Church declares in the Catechism that: "404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".293 By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act."

Is your human nature susceptible to sin? Of course it is. Why? As a baby what did you to cause this? Nothing. You didn't do anything; you were just a baby. it was Adam and eve whose sin afected human nature for all.

And we all read in Holy Scripture

Romans 5:12-15
Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin was not imputed, when the law was not.

But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned, after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.

But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died: much more the grace of God and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many

"By the offense of one", THAT'S original sin.

 

[geocajun]

If someone said "is that we are not ALL sinners because we inherited the sin of Adam. We are ALL sinners, because we ALL sin. We do not inherit sin, we commit sin ourselves." how would I answer that?
The truth is we are sinners because we inherited it and therefore are born into a sinful state. So that is why we commit sin.
Debi

There are two types of sin

Origional Sin - this is the sin of adam and eve and it is passed on to the entire human race (i.e we all inhereit it)
Actual [personal] Sin - this is the category that sins we personally commit fall into.

 

[Debi1967]

OK that is what I wanted to know cool.....
So let me get this right then because the Catechism can still be a bit confusing to me at times.....
IOW what I said was right

 

[geocajun]

We do inherit original sin, and we do commit actual sin. We are sinful on both counts, baptism cleanses us of original sin and actual sin, but we can still commit actual sin post baptism and then we must seek confession to be cleansed.

 

[Debi1967]

We do inherit original sin, and we do commit actual sin. We are sinful on both counts, baptism cleanses us of original sin and actual sin, but we can still commit actual sin post baptism and then we must seek confession to be cleansed.

Thank you cajun
so IOW Eve committed Actual sin then?
And because of that we now have both
But because we are born inhritting Original Sin then it is harder for us to avoid the Actual am I right because it is not by choice that we have Original....
Did you understand that ?

 

[geocajun]

Thank you cajun
so IOW Eve committed Actual sin then?

I dunno if there is any official teaching on that or not.. I do know that both Adam and Eve are guilty of the original sin, but it does make good sense that for both of them it would have also been actual sin.

But because we are born inhritting Original Sin then it is harder for us to avoid the Actual am I right because it is not by choice that we have Original....

Part of the consequences of mans fall from grace (origional sin) was the insertion of concupiscence. Concupiscence is the inclination to do evil - so technically speaking, it is concupiscence which makes it harder for us to resist actual sin.

 

[KennySe]

Adam and Eve's sin caused human nature to fall from grace.
Human nature has fallen from its God-given holiness.

We inherited this "fall from grace state of nature" from Adam and Eve.

So, even if a person were to be able to live without personally sinning, that person is doomed to die.
Unless.
He may be born of water and spirit and have his human nature washed clean by the blood of the Lamb. For all have sinned, all have fallen short. Our human nature has been damaged by Adam's sin.
Who can fix our human nature? Only God. And He did fix our human nature, by becoming man himself and becoming the Perfect Sacrifice that takes away the sin of the world. We must accept Him and become His CHildren and HE will fix us. We cannot fix ourselves.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

OK are you saying I am wrong or the other person ...... I am confuddled

sorry for the confusion, you were right, the other person was wrong

 

[ChoirDir]

This may explain the differences between Catholics and Orthodox views on Original Sin.

With regard to original sin, the difference between Orthodox Christianity and the West may be outlined as follows:

In the Orthodox Faith, the term "original sin" refers to the "first" sin of Adam and Eve. As a result of this sin, humanity bears the "consequences" of sin, the chief of which is death. Here the word "original" may be seen as synonymous with "first." Hence, the "original sin" refers to the "first sin" in much the same way as "original chair" refers to the "first chair."

In the West, humanity likewise bears the "consequences" of the "original sin" of Adam and Eve. However, the West also understands that humanity is likewise "guilty" of the sin of Adam and Eve. The term "Original Sin" here refers to the condition into which humanity is born, a condition in which guilt as well as consequence is involved.

 

[geocajun]

hey Choirdir, who asked for the EO view?...

 

[Debi1967]

I am asking that we please not fight
It is good to see opposing points of view as long as there is no argument about it.
I am not going to change ranks because someone has put up an alternate explanation.
I stated my beliefs and have found out they are indeed in line with what we teach.
In Christ
Debi

 

[geocajun]

It is evangelizing on the Catholic forum by a non-Catholic... It would be a different matter entirely if someone had asked for their point of view.. but no one did..

 

[Miss Shelby]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to geocajun again.​

Dang!

Michelle
​

 

[Debi1967]

It is evangelizing on the Catholic forum by a non-Catholic... It would be a different matter entirely if someone had asked for their point of view.. but no one did..

I know cajun I am just trying to keep the peace here and I am going to PM you in a minute for the rest of my message ok

 

[ej]

... the Catechism can still be a bit confusing to me at times.....

Stick with it, Debi - you're asking good questions.

I used to read my catechism in bite-sized chunks (on the bus, at the airport, etc) because it was too much to read more than 15mins at a time.