Help, please.

[TaylorSexton]

Hello, all.

As you can see by my post count, I am new to this forum. I am thankful for such a rich community of believers on the web with whom I can discuss our my faith.

However, I am in a time of peril in my faith life. I do not know if this is the right forum subheading for this kind of post, but I am going to try.

First of all, I am Reformed. I sincerely believe that the doctrines taught by Calvin—and, for that matter, Luther, Wycliffe, and Augustine—are indeed the correct interpretation of Scripture. But, this has created a problem for me. I hope I can explain this as simply as possible.

I believe, as the Doctrines of Grace teach, that no one can come to the Father except that he is drawn by the Holy Spirit. I sincerely believe it because I read it in Scripture. This, however, creates a problem for me. The problem is further progressed when I read things like this in books by theologians whom I greatly respect:

"...incomplete repentance, sometimes called “attrition” (remorse, self-reproach, and sorrow for sin generated by fear of punishment, without any wish or resolve to forsake sinning) is insufficient."

- J.I. Packer, Concise Theology

I am distraught because I feel like I want to be saved and feel remorse for my sins, but, in my guilt, I just attribute my want to be saved as simply a fear for my soul as opposed to a godly sorrow. I have been praying that God would do a work in my life. And, I have noticed "improvement" in my life. I have seen certain habitual sins erased from my lifestyle. But, again, I attribute it to simply a self-determination rather than any work of the Holy Spirit. I have also had the sudden urge to attend seminary, a thought that has never crossed my mind—ever—until six months ago. Is this just something I want to do, or is it God?

Has anyone else experienced these problems? How do I tell the difference between self-determination and the work of God? How do I know if I am being drawn to God? I have tried to pray about this but, because I don't even know if I am one of the elect or not, I feel helpless when I pray.

Again, my problem is not with Reformed theology. I am increasingly convinced that what it teaches is Scriptural. My problem is with the state of my soul when confronted by these doctrines. I want the forgiveness God has for me, but I want that desire to be the sovereign work of God.

I thank you all in advance for your help.

 

[HereIStand]

I would interpret Packer's quote to be directed at a person who heedlessly lives life, and is only reigned in (as it were) by the fear of punishment. A person wanting to live the Christian life (as you clearly do) will be blessed with a desire to repent based on a love for God. However, we can not (nor should we) be entirely free from the fear of punishment. Further, in this life, our love for God won't be entirely free from a pull in the the wrong direction, motivated by sinful desire.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Hello, all.

As you can see by my post count, I am new to this forum. I am thankful for such a rich community of believers on the web with whom I can discuss our my faith.

However, I am in a time of peril in my faith life. I do not know if this is the right forum subheading for this kind of post, but I am going to try.

First of all, I am Reformed. I sincerely believe that the doctrines taught by Calvin—and, for that matter, Luther, Wycliffe, and Augustine—are indeed the correct interpretation of Scripture. But, this has created a problem for me. I hope I can explain this as simply as possible.

I believe, as the Doctrines of Grace teach, that no one can come to the Father except that he is drawn by the Holy Spirit. I sincerely believe it because I read it in Scripture. This, however, creates a problem for me. The problem is further progressed when I read things like this in books by theologians whom I greatly respect:

"...incomplete repentance, sometimes called “attrition” (remorse, self-reproach, and sorrow for sin generated by fear of punishment, without any wish or resolve to forsake sinning) is insufficient."

- J.I. Packer, Concise Theology

I am distraught because I feel like I want to be saved and feel remorse for my sins, but, in my guilt, I just attribute my want to be saved as simply a fear for my soul as opposed to a godly sorrow. I have been praying that God would do a work in my life. And, I have noticed "improvement" in my life. I have seen certain habitual sins erased from my lifestyle. But, again, I attribute it to simply a self-determination rather than any work of the Holy Spirit. I have also had the sudden urge to attend seminary, a thought that has never crossed my mind—ever—until six months ago. Is this just something I want to do, or is it God?

Has anyone else experienced these problems? How do I tell the difference between self-determination and the work of God? How do I know if I am being drawn to God? I have tried to pray about this but, because I don't even know if I am one of the elect or not, I feel helpless when I pray.

Again, my problem is not with Reformed theology. I am increasingly convinced that what it teaches is Scriptural. My problem is with the state of my soul when confronted by these doctrines. I want the forgiveness God has for me, but I want that desire to be the sovereign work of God.

I thank you all in advance for your help.

Jesus has already done the heavy lifting for you, you're absolved from your iniquities as the Son of God has paid for your sins on the cross. Do you believe Christ died in order that you may live? If you do you are one of the elect.

 

[JustAsIam77]

"How do I tell the difference between self-determination and the work of God?"

A person who is at all conversant with the spiritual life knows as certainly whether he indeed enjoys the light of Gods countenance , or whether he walks in darkness, as a traveler knows whether he travels in sunshine or in rain. Toplady

 

[dhh712]

Has anyone else experienced these problems? How do I tell the difference between self-determination and the work of God? How do I know if I am being drawn to God? I have tried to pray about this but, because I don't even know if I am one of the elect or not, I feel helpless when I pray.

Yes, I have. I don't know that I can offer much advice for I am so new to the faith as well. I will look on anxiously for advice from those who have more biblical knowledge than I do at the moment.

Nonetheless, can I ask you to clarify what you mean when you say that the repentance you feel is from fear of punishment--what sort of punishment? Do you fear the punishment of being cut off from God for eternity? That is the punishment I fear. I think that when I repent it is because of that reason and that I want to follow God because I love Him and know that when I do not it creates a gulf, an inability to commune with God. I feel like I am destroying our relationship and I don't want to do that.

And, I have noticed "improvement" in my life. I have seen certain habitual sins erased from my lifestyle. But, again, I attribute it to simply a self-determination rather than any work of the Holy Spirit. I have also had the sudden urge to attend seminary, a thought that has never crossed my mind—ever—until six months ago. Is this just something I want to do, or is it God?

I have these same questions. I do not know if it is me or God. For me though, from my personal experience, I trust it is God. Before God came into my life and claimed me for His own, I was a very self-centered person. Not that I am entirely free of that. Yet I was completely and entirely absorbed in myself. God changed me in a way that for me seems miraculous. I have wants and needs and understanding that I never had before and I am convinced that this is due to the change that God performs in the heart of those He regenerates.

Since I came from a scientific, very rational background however, one of the main tactics Satan is using to destroy my relationship with God is that my conversion (conversion would have quotes around it in his language) came about through my rational understanding of what is taught in the Westminster Confessions of Faith and that it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. Once I read those doctrines, God and the world made sense to me in a way which it never had. Satan is telling me that it is because it makes sense that I believe and not because of what I think it is. He also tells me of one other reason why I believe which is unrelated to God which I do not care to go into; but it has to do with how I came to belief while working on a historical research project. That attack is more devastating to me than the coming to belief by reason attack.

These attacks are very harmful to my soul and my relationship with our Heavenly Father. Yet I trust in Him. I trust that He has called me and not that it was anything at all of my own proclivity for logic and intellect though it may seem that way. If I let my rational mind take preeminence instead of the perfect love of God and that satisfaction of knowing Him, I may definitely come to the understanding that the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with it at all and it is of my own efforts.

I want the forgiveness God has for me, but I want that desire to be the sovereign work of God.

You are in good fortune then (though of course, we know that such a thing doesn't exist!), for it is all the work of a Sovereign God! Yet we all have free will and how this can be with the sovereignty of God is something which has not been revealed to me and may not ever be.

 

[JustAsIam77]

I implore more members to please reply to TaylorSexton, he is just 21 years of age and seeking answers.

"I want the forgiveness God has for me, but I want that desire to be the sovereign work of God."

Read The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink here:
https://archive.org/details/TheSovereigntyOfGod_733

 

[JM]

"...incomplete repentance, sometimes called “attrition” (remorse, self-reproach, and sorrow for sin generated by fear of punishment, without any wish or resolve to forsake sinning) is insufficient." - J.I. Packer, Concise Theology

Some helpful thoughts by brother Ron Wood, a poster on this forum:

“Far too many folks have faith in their faith. There is no salvation apart from faith in Christ but faith isn’t what saves a soul. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. What that means is that by faith we know that God is faithful to His Son and us in Him. And that He will do all that He promised. Faith is resting in Christ and not ourselves. Faith is looking at all the promises of God with an eye to them all being fulfilled and dispensed in Christ. Faith is a total and complete reliance on Christ alone without anything of me.

Folks who have faith in their faith look to their faith and not to Christ. That is what I believe the man was talking about.”

I am distraught because I feel like I want to be saved and feel remorse for my sins, but, in my guilt, I just attribute my want to be saved as simply a fear for my soul as opposed to a godly sorrow. I have been praying that God would do a work in my life.

"I am ashamed at how often my heart is cold and my faith is so small. It is a constant reminder to me of the fact that in myself I am nothing but sin. But I also know that my experience is no different than even the greatest men of God. Paul spoke of his struggle in Rom. 7 and some of the mightiest preachers dealt with coldness in their hearts. But don’t get discouraged. Christ still has His hand on you and even this is for your good and His glory. If we didn’t have times in the valley we wouldn’t look to Him. He is once again showing you that you are nothing and He is all and enough for you.


The thing that thrills me when I read the Scriptures is when I begin to see Christ in them where I never saw Him before. Read your Bible to find Christ and His Gospel in all the Scriptures."

Has anyone else experienced these problems? How do I tell the difference between self-determination and the work of God? How do I know if I am being drawn to God? I have tried to pray about this but, because I don't even know if I am one of the elect or not, I feel helpless when I pray.

“Sheep don’t need to be driven in order for them to act like sheep. They do the things sheep do by nature. All true believers don’t need to be driven to work they just do it by their new nature. The Lord never defined eternal life by knowledge and works but simply by knowledge of Him who is the only true God. John 17:3. Paul didn’t seek anything but to know Him and be found in Him. Phil. 3:9-10

Natural false religion always wants to mix in a little work with faith. But if you ever find out what it is to rest in Christ you will know what it is to be free to work.”​

Dealing with the guilt of sin:

“Do you think that Christ didn’t know all about all of your sin when He hung on that tree? By all means hate even the garment spotted by the flesh. Recognize that in your flesh you are nothing but sin and hate your sin the way God does.

At the same time also recognize that God sees no sin in His people. He looks on us as we really are and we are really in Christ. If God can see no sin in us, though we are full of it, then we need to live and learn to see ourselves as God sees us.


Fight that daily war with your flesh and walk in this world looking to Christ alone. He is all my righteousness, all my holiness and all my hope of acceptance with God. His is all and enough. If we can ever find out that Christ is all that God requires of us we may be able to look to Him.
I know from experience that looking at your self can only cause your guilt and confusion. Looking at yourself all that can be seen is sin. Looking at yourself will lay a load of guilt on your back that will bend you over under its weight. The only way to rid yourself of the load is to look up to Christ. You will never be able to measure up to the standard. Hate the natural man that is you and battle him daily. But don’t live as though you are defeated for Christ has already won the victory. He lived a perfect life in my place and His life is all that I need to be guiltless before God.


The question that you need to answer for yourself is whether you are truly looking to Christ. Is He enough for you or do you need more than Him?”

Godly sorrow vs. Worldly Sorrow:

“Godly sorrow is that sorrow that drives you to Christ. It is focused on God and our affront to Him. It causes us to fall at His feet begging mercy because we have no other hope but in His sovereign mercy.


Worldly sorrow is the sorrow of religion. It is focused on me and drives me to look to myself. It lays guilt on me and and can never purge the conscience. It brings death because it looks to me.


Psalm 51 is an example of godly sorrow. David had just killed Urriah in order to steal his wife and the prophet Nathan, as the mouth of God, called him out on it. David then wrote Psalm 51. Jer. 31:18,19 is another example of godly sorrow. Israel’s history is an example of worldly sorrow.”

His finished work:

“The life of faith is a life of constant battle against yourself. Rom. 7:15-25, Gal. 5:16-25. If we are Christ’s we need never worry about our sin causing God to be angry with us because The Lord our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, has purged it;put it away, blotted it out and totaly removed it from the sight and memory of God by His sacrifice of Himself. That is why the Apostle John can write by the insipration of God that as He is so are we in this world. 1John 4:17. Our standing before God is much more than a position of legality but one of reality, we stand before God as righteous as the very Son Of God. Knowing that I am free from the bondage of sin because of Christ I am free to live seeking His honor and glory because of His love for me. Love will motivate you to service much more than law of do’s and don’t will. If you love Him honor Him and you will find that looking to His finishsed work will free you to serve Him.”

 

[TaylorSexton]

Thank you all very much for your thoughtful replies. I feel so blessed to have contact with people such as you all. And, because of your thoughts on this thread and the thoughts of others via PM, I have come to realize that my definitions of faith were inaccurate and damaging.

I understand now upon a second reading of my original post that may have sounded as if I were in a state of mental or psychological instability. That is certainly not the case and I apologize if I came across that way. I just have a love for the accurate interpretation of Scripture and do not want to deviate from it in any way, even if it costs me everything. I sincerely feel that misinterpreting Scripture could very well cost me everything anyway.

 

[twin1954]

the problem with religious thought today is that far too many start with man and work up to God. It should be the other way around.

The reason so many struggle with their faith is that they don't know enough about God's faithfulness to His Son. Our salvation is entirely in the hands of the Son of God our Savior and He is more than able to do more than we can ask or think. He has accomplished the full, complete, total and everlasting salvation of His people and nothing can ever change that.

Because these things are true, that it is in Him and by Him alone without anything from us, we can rest assured that even in the teeth of our faults, failings, desertions and rebellions, He never changes toward us. A believer has nothing to fear from God at all. Christ has fully taken away everything that would give God a reason to be angry with His people.

The Scriptures never tell us that we must have a certain amount of faith, that is religion, but that we must believe. Believe how much? The grain of a mustard seed. Small faith saves as well as great faith. It isn't how much faith but simply faith.

Rest in Christ alone. Do not look to yourself for anything, especially feelings. Religion will point you to obedience( Packer, MacArthur et all) but obedience is never a gauge of faith but a result of it.


I am saved because the Great God and Savior the Lord Jesus Christ stood in my place and fully accomplished that which was required in my place. In Him I am complete, in Him I am accepted, in Him I am a son of God and that son-ship can never be severed. In Him I am blessed of God and all the glory of eternal bliss is already my by Him.

Even when I don't feel like it.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Thank you all very much for your thoughtful replies. I feel so blessed to have contact with people such as you all. And, because of your thoughts on this thread and the thoughts of others via PM, I have come to realize that my definitions of faith were inaccurate and damaging.

I understand now upon a second reading of my original post that may have sounded as if I were in a state of mental or psychological instability. That is certainly not the case and I apologize if I came across that way. I just have a love for the accurate interpretation of Scripture and do not want to deviate from it in any way, even if it costs me everything. I sincerely feel that misinterpreting Scripture could very well cost me everything anyway.

You are now on a quest to rightly divide the 'Word of Truth', it's been a lifelong search for me personally, welcome to the club!