help/opinions

[Erik3]

Okay, so here's a little background info before my dillema/problem.

I am involved in a parachurch ministry which primarily focuses on urban ministry. I would say it is an unofficial Assembly of God ministry, and officialy a non-denominational or inter-denominational ministry. I am not Assembly of God, I attend a Evangelical Free Church (for now), however I am becoming increasingly interested in Orthodoxy. Anyway, I am involved in this ministry because It does very good things like, feeding the homeless on a weekly basis, visiting people in prison weekly, handing out coats in the winter and other cloths, and helping single mothers or families of low income with diapers or baby food or groceries. All these things are things that I strongly believe in and enjoy doing.

So, onto my dilema. This past Sunday one of the leaders of this ministry was baptized at his Church an Assembly of God Church. So my fiance' and I attended his baptizm. What we did not realize was that this was also a Sunday night prayer/worship session. After the baptizm a worship band started to sing songs, in between songs there was prayer. The worship leaders began speaking in tounges during the prayers. After the worship there was a guest speaker/evangelist talking about prayer and building the church (there were two offereings taken throughout the service). Right before the speaker took the podium a woman stood up in the congregation and said something in tounges, then the speaker stood up with the interpratation, something about how God wants to strengthan prosper you. Then there was a prayer session, at this point many people got up and waited in the foyer, my assumption is that these are people who felt uncomfrtable but were waiting for their friend or relatives who had just been baptized to finish worshiping/praying.

During this prayer session people were invited to come to the front of the church and lay down at the alter. At this point the pastor had already been slain in the Spirit and was laying down on the stage. So other people proceded to walk to the front of the church and lay down and speak in tongues and weep. The room was full of the sound of people speaking in tongues and weeping. The speaker was at the front walking around shouting in tongues then saying "more Lord more, Alleluhia." One of the church members stood up with his eyes closed and look towards the back of the chuch and started prophesying, proclaiming "I am the Lord, why do you fear me, come sit and eat at the feast that I have prepared for you, why do stand on the fringes." I assume he was refering to the people waitng in the foyer.

After all this, the congegation sat down and then the pastor was called out of his slaying by the speaker. He stood up weeping and took the mic. He then asked all the church staff who were present to come to the front for a laying-on-of-hands. They proceded, he than acked the congregation to come up and lay hands on the staff, they did. My fiance' and I stayed seated as did a few others. The speaker then proceded to cast out the spirit of fear (apparently there had been some division in the church and the elders left, so the staff didn't know where the church was headed so they were afraid). So after some more speking in tongues and prayer for the renewal of positive things, it was over.

At this point some of you may be asking, so what's the problem, just leave the ministry, or just show them in the bible where this is wrong. The problem is I don't want to leave the ministry because this is the only place I know of that does the ministry that it does. Furthermore, all the leaders of the mininstry belong to this church and believe very seriously that this is the fruit christian maturity produces, and if you don't agree then your almost commiting if not actually commiting blasphmy. Also showing them in the bible is easier said than done, they have their interpretation of what the bible says, they view themselves as more mature than myself and if I challenge them, then I am obviously not understanding something correctly. About three or four will "slam me with the word" untill I concede to their point, which is easy because I am not a very good debater or arguer. Plus I feel if I challenge them too much on this issue I will be asked to leave the minisrty and I don't where else to go to do this kind of ministry. I would also loose friends who I care about.

So, I don't know why I put this thread on TAW. I hope it's not because I am looking for a certain response from you guys, telling me what I want to hear. I do know that I feel very comfortaable at TAW and I consider you guys my online friends. Anyways, if you guys have any advice please give it. Please be honest, even if it is harsh, I can take it.

Thank you for taking the time to read through all this and listening to my problems.

Thanks, God Bless

 

[ManM]

Yikes, sounds like a tough situation. When I think about it, the words of St. Seraphim of Sarov go running through my mind: “Save yourself, and a thousand around you will be saved.” I don't think confronting them with bible verses will be profitable to anyone. Instead of trying to teach them about the holy spirit through words, teach them through actions. Save yourself, and acquire the holy spirit within you. That way, your very presence will teach them the truth about the holy spirit. And if they do try to slam you with the word, duck. Those bibles are quite heavy, and can leave bruises.

 

[Prawnik]

Erik: Sounds like a tough situation, and I agree with ManM - simply confronting your confonters with Bible verses in response probably will not do much good. It is very hard to convince anyone of anything through argument - one has to be open to being convinced. After all, in spite of a vigorous effort, the ministers have been unable to convince you.

However, there are numerous other ministries serving the poor. Most are probably less controlling than this organization. I suggest that you find such a ministry.

 

[Michael G]

Erik,
I do not pretend to have the answer for your situation, but I would like to make a few points about it. First, the WORD is not the Bible, it is Christ. The Greek word LOGOS is a philosophical term which referrs to Christ. Otherwise, if it referred to the Bible (OT & NT combined) it would not make sense. In the beginning was the logos and the logos was with God and the logos was God. Ok, ummm, last I checked the cannon of the bible was not set until about 397 AD at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. Point two, the answer for being "slammed with the word" is contextuality. I can make the Bible say whatever I want if I take verses out of context. I can use it to justify slavery, genocide, prostitution, murder, you name it, if I take verses completely out of context. What you ought to do when people start verse slinging at you is pull out a Bible and read not just the verse the person is giving you, but if you have time, the entire chapter the verse is found in. Much of the time you will see the meaning of the verse in a totally different light when you get the position in which the verse was set in the first place. This will also have a secondary effect of greatly slowing down the verse slinging and atleast temporarily put a stop to the scriptural abuse being perpetrated by your friends. Note, your verse slinging friends will resist this putting of verses into context greatly. You will need to be bold and insist that they do it. As for what to do about your ministry, pray and ask God to be a guide to you.

 

[vanshan]

"Every good gift is from above and comes down from the Father . . ."

The ministry you do is good. Regardless of affiliation, someone must provide this valuable service to the poor and those in need. I think, for some, these works can be done in vain, or can fill them with pride in the good things they do for others, but so long as your sacrifice to this ministry is an act of obedience, rather than a source of pride, then I think you should continue. One drawback would be if the ministry pushes their heterodox beliefs on the recipients of their charity. We have one ministry in my town which requires the homeless to attend a service to receive food, which is unfortunate.

If possible find a local Orthodox Church and speak to the priest. Perhaps someday you could help establish a similar ministry through the Church. We need talent and commitment like yours. Sadly, our Church is somewhat disorganized when it comes to charity. We have a poor box where cash donations are given to be distributed to the poor and then we collect food which is dispersed by our community food bank.

Having departed from the "charismatic movement" over 10 years ago, I would encourage you to avoid their services. I was actively involved in their teachings and even studying at a charismatic university, when I began studying Church history and discovered many inconsistencies with what the Church was doing compared to charismatic worship. It seems to be of an entirely different spirit.

My in-laws are all staunch Southern Baptists and I find it best to not engage in discussions about our faith. It's hard knowing they look down on our faith, wrongly believing that we lack a "personal relationship" with Jesus.

Basil

 

[nicodemus]

I may be way off here (and if I am, anybody feel free to correct me), but someone once told me some interesting things about the whole "speaking in tongues" thing engaged in by pentecostal/charismatic churches.

First his story, then his observations:

Someone invited him to attend a service somewhat like what you went to. When they started speaking in tongues, he recognized the language it was in (Hausa) as he had been a missionary in Nigeria for many years and could speak the language. He was shocked by what was coming out of the person's mouth in Hausa because it was full of all sorts of blasphemous talk. When the person deciphered/interpreted the message for the congregation, he said all manner of edifying things, etc. My friend felt frozen in his tracks because he spoke the language and knew it wasn't true. Now, that's not to suggest that these people were intentionally lying, because even he didn't believe that to be the case, but he did recognize it as a clear case of spiritual deception.

This is the point he brought up, which I think really speaks volumes. What is the purpose today of speaking in tongues amongst people who all speak the same language? In the Biblical examples of speaking in tongues, it was stated the apostles spoke and everyone heard them in their own language. That is not what these meetings are like. Other examples pop up, but are dealth with in a manner that discourages the practice.

Fr. Seraphim Rose (+1982) had the following to say on the matter:

"Modern Pentecostals, to justify their use of tongues, refer most of all to St. Paul's First Epistle to the Corinthians (chs. 12-14). But St. Paul wrote this passage precisely because 'tongues' had become a source of disorder in the Church of Corinth; and even while he does not forbid them, he decidedly minimizes their significance. This passage, therefore, far from encouraging any modern revival of "tongues," should on the contrary discourage it especially when one discovers (as Pentecostals themselves admit) that there are other sources of speaking in tongues besides the Holy Spirit! As Orthodox Christians we already know that speaking in tongues as a true gift of the Holy Spirit cannot appear among those outside the Church of Christ...

(emphasis is the author's)

Here's an article about it from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America's website:

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7112.asp

 

[elizabethevangeline]

Erik, I think you've received some helpful advice already and I really can't add to it.

I just wanted to say I can relate to the difficult choices you are facing. My husband and I were in a Bible study with 2 other couples...our very best friends. As I became more "Orthodox" in my thinking, attending the Bible study became increasingly difficult. I wanted to be with my friends but I just couldn't do the "lets share what this passage means to you" conversations anymore, and others were getting uncomfortable with my changing perspective and observations. Then there was the mini-communion service with graham crackers! It's really obvious when you're the only one out of 6 who doesn't participate!

So far, my relationships with those couples are intact, but we don't see them as regularly as we used to. It can be lonely. You probably will lose some friends, even be judged unfairly. For the 1st time in my 37 yrs in church, I've finally got an idea why Christ said the Way is narrow and difficult. Thankfully, we also have a promise that God will not give us more than we can bear, and He provides what we need for the journey.

 

[Theophorus]

Vashan brought up a good point about not doing the "ministry" out of pride, but I would also ask at this point: Would the ministry survive without you? Would innocent people suffer if you were to leave?

I do not think it is a healthy situation which you describe, and the fact that they are exorcising a spirit of fear, and that (if I understand you correctly) all of the elders split the congregation! Sounds like their might be one too many prophets.

 

[MariaRegina]

The Orthodox Church also has a prison ministry and outreaches.

Check out www.ocmc.org

Perhaps you might consider going to the missions either here in the USA or in other nations?

 

[The Prokeimenon!]

Here's an oversimplified answer:

Leave the ministry, and give your own coat to a single homeless man. It may not be helping on the massive scale that an organization would, but giving a single coat to a single homeless man is no different than giving it to Christ Himself. The ministry will survive without you, but you may not survive within the ministry (if that makes any sense.)

Start attending an Orthodox Church and talk to the Priest. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, and you will have plenty of opportunities to "minister" to the poor and homeless without being a part of a para-church organization or seeking out those opportunities.

All that being said- I understand that this is no easy thing. You have ties, relationships, and a whole lot of reasons that make it a very painful decision to just up and leave. You may lose some friends (or family.) But if you feel strongly that you need to leave, I suspect it will become harder and harder to stay.

You're in a very tough spot which, in the long run, may be the beginning of some very wonderful things. We'll pray that God guides you.

Moses

 

[Erik3]

Thank you to everyone for your advice

First, the WORD is not the Bible, it is Christ. The Greek word LOGOS is a philosophical term which referrs to Christ. Otherwise, if it referred to the Bible (OT & NT combined) it would not make sense.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean to say that the Bible is the Word, I just meant that is what they would call it. When they where slinging verses at me they would say they were "slamming me with the word."

I think, for some, these works can be done in vain, or can fill them with pride in the good things they do for others, but so long as your sacrifice to this ministry is an act of obedience, rather than a source of pride, then I think you should continue.

Your right, for some in the ministry is done for pride. I try to humble myself, thanks for the encouragement.

One drawback would be if the ministry pushes their heterodox beliefs on the recipients of their charity. We have one ministry in my town which requires the homeless to attend a service to receive food, which is unfortunate.

This is the case with this ministry also.

If possible find a local Orthodox Church and speak to the priest. Perhaps someday you could help establish a similar ministry through the Church.

I am planning on attending an Orthodaox Church in the very near future.

I would encourage you to avoid their services.

I usually try to, however A friend was being baptized and I felt obligated to support him.

As I became more "Orthodox" in my thinking, attending the Bible study became increasingly difficult.

This is the case with myself as well. The ministry holds weekly "Bible" studies and I find myself increasingly looking for excuses not to go. The reason I write "Bible" study is because more and more they don't even open the Bible! The leader usually gives a testimony on how God has blessed his life and then encourages others to stop sinning so they can be as mature in Christ as he is.

The Orthodox Church also has a prison ministry and outreaches.

Thanks for the link.

Leave the ministry, and give your own coat to a single homeless man. It may not be helping on the massive scale that an organization would, but giving a single coat to a single homeless man is no different than giving it to Christ Himself. The ministry will survive without you, but you may not survive within the ministry (if that makes any sense.)

It does make sense. And your words are very true, maybe this is a step I need to take and humble myself. Thanks

You have ties, relationships, and a whole lot of reasons that make it a very painful decision to just up and leave. You may lose some friends (or family.) But if you feel strongly that you need to leave, I suspect it will become harder and harder to stay.

Your right it is becaoming harder and harder to stay.

Again thank you to everyone for their words of encouragement. I have some serious praying to do.

Thanks, God Bless

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

Here's an oversimplified answer:

Leave the ministry, and give your own coat to a single homeless man. It may not be helping on the massive scale that an organization would, but giving a single coat to a single homeless man is no different than giving it to Christ Himself. The ministry will survive without you, but you may not survive within the ministry (if that makes any sense.)

Start attending an Orthodox Church and talk to the Priest. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, and you will have plenty of opportunities to "minister" to the poor and homeless without being a part of a para-church organization or seeking out those opportunities.

All that being said- I understand that this is no easy thing. You have ties, relationships, and a whole lot of reasons that make it a very painful decision to just up and leave. You may lose some friends (or family.) But if you feel strongly that you need to leave, I suspect it will become harder and harder to stay.

You're in a very tough spot which, in the long run, may be the beginning of some very wonderful things. We'll pray that God guides you.

Moses

Fantastic post, Moses.