Help! need help debating an evolutionist!

[outdoor_engineer]

I have an ongoing debate with a kid at school about evolution.

He's presenting some pretty good arguments and he's kicking my butt, can anyone help?!

 

[DaisyDay]

You should probably stick to one forum at a time per same post.
Physical & Life Sciences - Christian Forums

 

[Mallon]

What arguments has he used?

 

[outdoor_engineer]

aisy day-
I was told that was the wrong thread for the question, if there is some way to wholesale move the thread, I'll gladly do it.

Mallon-
It is a long, drawn out logic style argument, I'll go through it step by step:

First he said that there are two different types of claims:

faith claims: those which could not be falsified by observation or experiment even in principle.
(i.e. god exists)

-and-

science claims: those which can be falsified by observation or experiment
(i.e. the earth is roughly spherical in shape)

This seemed perfectly rational, so I agreed.

he asked if I would agree that only science claims should be taught in science class. After some hemming and hawwing I agreed.

then the argument went like this:

faith based claims are those that which cannot be falsified.
faith based claims should not be taught in science class.
Creationism / ID can incorporate any evidence by saying "God made it that way"
Therefore creationism / ID cannot be falsified
Therefore creationism / ID should not be taught in science class.

He got me, Where did I go wrong? where's the flaw in his logic that I can't see?

 

[Mallon]

There is no flaw in his argument. He's right.

Why do you think creationism should be taught in science class?

 

[outdoor_engineer]

With over half the country being creationists, I was really expecting help... especially on the Christian forum...

as to why creationism should be taught in science class, the choice between the word of God and the word of the atheists seems like a pretty easy one.

 

[Mallon]

With over half the country being creationists, I was really expecting help... especially on the Christian forum...

You are getting help. You are being told that your friend is correct and that you are wrong. Would you rather be lied to? Would that really be more helpful?

as to why creationism should be taught in science class, the choice between the word of God and the word of the atheists seems like a pretty easy one.

Why do you believe science is atheistic?

 

[Mallon]

I should add that even the late Henry Morris, the founder of modern creationism, has argued that it is not science.

 

[outdoor_engineer]

You're right, from what I've heard they're not atheists, they have a religion called "Darwinism" where they reject Jesus and hold a racist Nazi named Darwin as their prophet.

why are we letting them indoctrinate our kids with this stuff?

can't someone show me where that kid went wrong in his logic? that's what I came here for.

 

[Mallon]

You're right, from what I've heard they're not atheists, they have a religion called "Darwinism" where they reject Jesus and hold a racist Nazi named Darwin as their prophet.

Careful, now. There are many Christians here who are evolutionists. The fact of the matter is that you have a significant misunderstanding of what evolution is. Evolution is neither atheistic nor a religion. It is a scientific theory like any other. And neither was Darwin a Nazi (he died before Hitler was even born). It appears that what you think evolution is and what it really is are two different things.

can't someone show me where that kid went wrong in his logic? that's what I came here for.

He's not wrong in his logic. You are suffering from a severe confirmation bias. If you're looking to evangelize somehow, why not be gracious in your Christianity and concede the point in a Christ-like manner, rather than try to argue about something that you clearly do not understand? I suspect that would go a lot farther in conveying the spirit of Christ.

 

[metherion]

why are we letting them indoctrinate our kids with this stuff?

can't someone show me where that kid went wrong in his logic? that's what I came here for.

First, from my point of view, it seems that the anti-evolutionists are doing more indoctrinating about evolution, with the constant misinformation about evolution being atheistic and racist and immoral and such every time they get a chance. Especially with it being wrong.

As for his logic, well, let's examine it.

You both agreed on the definition of science based claims versus faith based claims, and those (coming from an outside observer) are definitely serviceable definitions. If it is unfalsifiable, it cannot be science.

So, if it is not falsifiable, it cannot be science, and if it cannot be science, it should not be taught in science class.
From my understanding, that is the next step, which you put as

faith based claims should not be taught in science class.

So the step you would probably want to focus on is the next step,

Creationism / ID can incorporate any evidence by saying "God made it that way"

You see, the rest of the argument is based on that point. If Creationism/ID cannot incorporate certain evidences, then those evidences can falsify it. If it can be falsified, it is not a faith based claim. If it is not a faith based claim, it could possibly be developed into a scientific claim. If it becomes a scientific claim, it can be taught in science class.

So, then, the next step is figuring out what would falsify Creationism/ID. If there is nothing, then his logic is correct. If there is something, then present that something. Both to him and to us please .

Metherion

 

[laconicstudent]

You're right, from what I've heard they're not atheists, they have a religion called "Darwinism" where they reject Jesus and hold a racist Nazi named Darwin as their prophet.

An amusing conceit. Science isn't a religion.

why are we letting them indoctrinate our kids with this stuff?

Ummmm cause its been proven to be true?

can't someone show me where that kid went wrong in his logic? that's what I came here for.

Because there is no flaw in his logic.

He correctly identified the existence of God as a non-falsifiable postulate, and therefore Creationism, which teaches that God poofed everything into existence, is not only falsified as a naturalistic theory by mountains of evidence, but is also inherently non-scientific as it requires you to postulate a non-falsifiable, which is a form of Argument from Ignorance, a fallacy in formal logic.

 

[laconicstudent]

You see, the rest of the argument is based on that point. If Creationism/ID cannot incorporate certain evidences, then those evidences can falsify it. If it can be falsified, it is not a faith based claim. If it is not a faith based claim, it could possibly be developed into a scientific claim. If it becomes a scientific claim, it can be taught in science class.

So, then, the next step is figuring out what would falsify Creationism/ID. If there is nothing, then his logic is correct. If there is something, then present that something. Both to him and to us please .

Metherion

True. Creationism is falsified by things like radiometric dating. The problem is that while Evolution is falsifiable, Creationism has already been falsified. And the mechanism for Creationism, "God did it" is still non-falsifiable, whereas Evolution's is.

 

[crawfish]

You're right, from what I've heard they're not atheists, they have a religion called "Darwinism" where they reject Jesus and hold a racist Nazi named Darwin as their prophet.

why are we letting them indoctrinate our kids with this stuff?

can't someone show me where that kid went wrong in his logic? that's what I came here for.

Perhaps they can tell you in the "Creationism" subforum. Many of us here believe (or think there is ample evidence, at least) that God used evolution as a creative mechanism. And, thus, we think the kid is right - if you are not going to teach religion in science class then you should not teach (young-earth/old-earth/ID)creationism in science class, because creationism is a purely faith-based argument. Do NOT take that as us advocating that we teach atheism or anti-creation in science class; true science should focus on interpretation of natural phenomena and not the supernatural, but it should also not make claims that it is not positioned to make (such as, there is no God).

 

[PaladinValer]

I have an ongoing debate with a kid at school about evolution.

He's presenting some pretty good arguments and he's kicking my butt, can anyone help?!

Yeah; agree with him and become a Theistic Evolutionist.

 

[Calypsis4]

Careful, now. There are many Christians here who are evolutionists. The fact of the matter is that you have a significant misunderstanding of what evolution is. Evolution is neither atheistic nor a religion. It is a scientific theory like any other. And neither was Darwin a Nazi (he died before Hitler was even born). It appears that what you think evolution is and what it really is are two different things.


He's not wrong in his logic. You are suffering from a severe confirmation bias. If you're looking to evangelize somehow, why not be gracious in your Christianity and concede the point in a Christ-like manner, rather than try to argue about something that you clearly do not understand? I suspect that would go a lot farther in conveying the spirit of Christ.

The kid asks for someone to help him against an evolutionist and an evolutionist steps in and answers. How typical.

I'll give you some help, young person.

1. Evolution does not exist in the first place because if it did it would be a violation of natural law. (a) the law of Biogenesis...life must generate from life. It cannot generate from non-living matter and no one has ever observed such a thing occur in nature. (2) Entropy keeps non-living matter from developing into living organisms and entropy keeps living organisms from becoming a different kind of organism. (3) the fossil record reveals that living organisms began abruptly, highly complex and no transitional forms.

Evolutioinists tell you that the evidence favors evolution. It doesn't. It can't.

2. God meant what He said through Moses and the creation in Genesis and there is no historical reason not to believe the account he gave us. Even the ten commandments affirm the six day creation account (Exodus 20:11). Secondly, the Lord Jesus Christ affirmed the six day creation account (Mark 10:6 & 13:19). All of His disciples taught that the creation was true and that Adam and Eve were real people.

3. Evolution is nowhere taught in the Bible.

I am an ex-evolutionist.

 

[laconicstudent]

If anyone is interested in one of the more fascinating studies that proves Evolution, they should look at Lenski's work. His paper "Historical contingency and the evolution of a key innovation in an experimental population of Escherichia coli" is a really fascinating read.

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/23/7899

 

[pgp_protector]

The kid asks for someone to help him against an evolutionist and the troublemaker Mallon (among other heretics) steps in and answers. How typical.

I'll give you some help, young person.

1. Evolution does not exist in the first place because if it did it would be a violation of natural law. (a) the law of Biogenesis...life must generate from life. It cannot generate from non-living matter and no one has ever observed such a thing occur in nature. (2) Entropy keeps non-living matter from developing into living organisms and entropy keeps living organisms from becoming a different kind of organism. (3) the fossil record reveals that living organisms began abruptly, highly complex and no transitional forms.

Evolutioinists are lying when they try to tell you that the evidence favors evolution. It doesn't. It can't. They lie to themselves and they lie to others when they promote that myth.

2. God meant what He said through Moses and the creation in Genesis and there is no historical reason not to believe the account he gave us. Even the ten commandments affirm the six day creation account (Exodus 20:11). Secondly, the Lord Jesus Christ affirmed the six day creation account (Mark 10:6 & 13:19). All of His disciples taught that the creation was true and that Adam and Eve were real people.

3. Evolution is nowhere taught in the Bible. It is a fairy tale.

I am an ex-evolutionist.

1) Evolution has nothing to do with Biogenesis, please learn what the theory states.

2) Genesis only works that way if you read it as 100% literal, and that also makes God a deceiver (God made the Earth look old, but told us it's young).

3) computers programing is nowhere taught in the Bible. Please stop using the internet.

 

[metherion]

The kid asks for someone to help him against an evolutionist and the troublemaker Mallon (among other heretics) steps in and answers. How typical.

Ah, yes. Well, since I answered I assume I am included among the ranks of the troublemakers and heretics. What a nice way to start off.

So.

Evolution does not exist in the first place because if it did it would be a violation of natural law.

Wrong. We have seen evolution. We have seen new species emerge, (IIRC but I could be wrong and will concede the point if I am) new genusses (sp?) evolve, mutations, etc etc etc. And unless/until a mechanism is proposed/tested/verified that puts a limit on it there is no reason to think otherwise.

the law of Biogenesis...life must generate from life. It cannot generate from non-living matter and no one has ever observed such a thing occur in nature.

Ah yes, flies not forming from rotting meat means evolution is impossible. Oh, and by the way, abiogenesis IS NOT EVOLUTION.

Next.

Entropy keeps non-living matter from developing into living organisms and entropy keeps living organisms from becoming a different kind of organism.

First off, no it doesn’t. Any entropy gain on earth is offset by the massively MASSIVELY larger entropy LOSS from the Sun that is constantly inputting energy to the planet. Secondly, life from non-life IS NOT EVOLUTION. Third, if you mean ‘kind’ as in the whole baraminology thing, please define it. If you just mean it as an alternate word for ‘type’, entropy would not prevent such a thing, and evolution doesn’t say such a thing would occur.

the fossil record reveals that living organisms began abruptly, highly complex and no transitional forms.

Abruptly? no. Highly complex? Depends on your definition of complexity. But generally no. No transitional forms? Outright false.

Evolutioinists are lying when they try to tell you that the evidence favors evolution. It doesn't. It can't. They lie to themselves and they lie to others when they promote that myth.

Except it does. Genetics, paleontology, taxonomy, etc etc etc all support the same thing.

But please, show me wrong. What in the evidence doesn’t favor evolution? Why CAN”T the evidence favor evolution? Please, tell me why.

God meant what He said through Moses and the creation in Genesis and there is no historical reason not to believe the account he gave us.


Of course God meant what He said. But that doesn’t mean He meant it LITERALLY. Furthermore, why is the 6 day workweek followed by the Sabbath only mentioned in ONE version of the Ten Commandments?

And there ARE historical reasons to not regard the account as literal, such as the utter lack of a genetic bottleneck, the evidence showing human civilization MORE than 6000 years ago, the evidence showing multiple civilizations continuing completely uninterrupted through the time period the Flood would have occurred, and so on.

Also, I’m noticing how the terms are loaded. You are implying that if we do not take it literally we do not believe the account. But remember how fond God is of speaking in dreams, visions, portents, prophecies, parables, and so on.

Secondly, the Lord Jesus Christ affirmed the six day creation account (Mark 10:6 & 13:19). All of His disciples taught that the creation was true and that Adam and Eve were real people.

The Gospel verses you cite make no mention of anything about a six day creation, they affirm God as creator, which fits in perfectly well with evolutionary creationism.

‘Male and female He created them’ = / = ‘Male, and then female from man’s rib, He created them, roughly 4000 years ago, in the Garden of Eden, out of dirt from the ground’.

Evolution is nowhere taught in the Bible. It is a fairy tale.

The internet is not mentioned in the Bible. Neither is DNA, electricity (well, lightning, but I mean controlled and used for power), nuclear power, television, X-rays, etc. Are those all fairy tales?

You know what IS mentioned in the Bible? A solid firmament that the stars are set in held up by the mountains, pillars of the earth, rabbits that chew cud. Are those literally real?

Metherion

 

[laconicstudent]

I admit to some degree of curiosity as to when the OP was going to bother to return, since he claimed to be having to be being pwned. I would have thought he'd be a little more engaged in the discussion.