Help me understand

[TraceDogg]

I have a frind who is marrying a messianic jew..I dont understand the faith at all. the FAQ didnt help. It just seems like a contradiction. My personal belief is that Jesu came to fufill the law and the Old Testament law does not apply to us today as believrs ion Jesus Christ. So in my belief is that Messianic Judaism is nothing more than legalistic rules.

 

[MyLittleWonders]

That seems to be a pretty common belief ... that MJ is no more than legalistic rules. But for those of us who are MJ (speaking generally here ) is that it's so much more a fuller and complete relationship with our Creator. For me, following God's commands - His Torah - makes so much sense ... it is living the sanctified (set-apart) life that He wants for His children. This is how I see it - Jesus (Yeshua) didn't come to do away with the "law" - the Torah. He came to show us how God meant for it to be lived from the get-go. Jesus didn't do away with the Sabbath, the feasts ... He came to pay the price for our disobedience, and reconcile us to God. But in this, He didn't do away with the Torah. He instead allows us to live the Torah through the Holy Spirit. I feel this is jumbled as I'm not thinking clearly ... I will try to explain it better.

Okay, I found a previous response of mine from a different thread that might do a better job explaining.

Well, from my point of view within Messianic Judaism, when Yeshua/Jesus said that He fulfilled the "OT" or the Torah, He was not stating that He did away with it. The terms fulfill and abolish were rabbinical terms that meant either a rabbi was correctly interpretting Torah or incorrectly interpretting Torah, respectively. So, He was basically telling His audience that He was here to correctly interpret Torah for us. He came to show us how the Torah was to be lived. So, from a MJ point of view (at least mine ), the Torah is still in affect today - we live through the power of the Holy Spirit (Rauch HaKodesh), and through the Spirit, we are able to follow the Torah the way God (HaShem) wants it to be lived. It's not that Yeshua started a whole new religion - it's more like he reformed, for lack of better word, the one that God already established. It's like it's God's religion, not man's, and yet man had somewhat corrupted it in practice (like we always do ) and so Yeshua needed to correct our errors and show us again how to live life the way He wanted it lived.

It's like this for me. For years I sat in Sunday church hearing about how we are to live our life like Jesus, have the same attitude as Jesus, strive to follow Jesus ... but the pastor never told us HOW that was supposed to look and happen. Once God unveiled my eyes to His Torah, I realized how it was supposed to look. He gave His Torah to us to sanctify us and set us apart from the nations around us. He did not send Jesus/Yeshua for us and then expect us to throw out thousands of years of His ways. He sent Yeshua as a final sacrifice of atonement for us ... to finally wash us clean forever ... but He still commands us to live a life set-apart for Him and the directions for how to do that are still there. They have been there since the foundations of the earth were laid. They became writing on stone when Moses ascended Mt. Sinai, and they became emblazened upon our hearts when we are filled with the Rauch HaKodesh. I want to lead a life according to the rules of my Father. I want to please Him. He didn't leave us to try to make up that lifestyle ... try to figure out what exactly He means when He says to follow Him and be holy as He is holy. His instructions have never changed and Messianic Judaism, on the whole, recognizes that. That is why we keep His Feasts, His Sabbath, and His commandments. Does that make some more sense?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Trace,

In Judaism of Jesus' day, 'fulfil' meant 'do' when speaking about the Law. Here is just one example:

Deuteronomy Rabbah 11:6

Halachah: When a Jew goes up to read the Law, he is not permitted to commence reading it before he has recited the blessings. First he must recite the blessings and then he reads. And thus Moses, when he had the privilege of receiving the Torah, first recited a blessing, and then he read it. R. Eleazar asked: What was the blessing which Moses recited before reading it? [It was], Blessed art Thou, O Lord, King of the Universe, who hast chosen this law and sanctified it and hast found pleasure in them who fulfil it. He did not say, ' in them that labour at it,' nor, ' in them who meditate in it,' but, ' in them that fulfil it,' that is to say, in them who carry out the words of the Torah.

So when Jesus said (in Matthew 5:17):

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

he was saying, 'I did not come to abolish the Law, but to do it!'

In Luke Jesus says this:
Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

If you check your Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament you will discover that the word translated 'fail' in the previous passage means 'to lose authority.' So you have this:

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to lose authority.

 

[Henaynei]

I have a friend who is marrying a messianic Jew..I don't understand the faith at all. the FAQ didn't help. It just seems like a contradiction. My personal belief is that Jesus came to fulfill the law and the Old Testament law does not apply to us today as believers ion Jesus Christ. So in my belief is that Messianic Judaism is nothing more than legalistic rules.

Since I believe it unlikely anyone is trying to convince you that MJism is the right path for you, but it is rather likely your friend and the MJ fiance, as well as the FAQ and probably several other sources prior to you coming here, have tried to explain MJ beliefs - I offer the observation that the best thing for you may be to accept that while it is not the doctrine for you, it is a valid faith community that loves and serves Yeshua - just as are the faith communities of believers within Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists and any of the other some 300 theological communities of believers

Perhaps what your friend needs most right now is your loving acceptance and joyous support at this pivotal, intense and most happy time of his/her life! Congratulations to your friend May HaShem/G-d grant them an enduring and happy union that glorifies His Name and bears witness to His relationship with His Bride!

 

[Voss]

I hope it is ok to use this post, since is the same question I wanted to ask. And I hope by posting here that I do NOT come across as someone who is here to argue with the Messianic believers. I pray that you see it for what it is. I am a believer who is truely seeking the TRUTH. I was raised to believe the traditional christian views on observing the law or Torah. That is is no longer required. I have always had the same views as the original poster of this thread. I have read on different Messianic sites and really like the teaching of some of these sites but I just cant understand the whole observance of the law. I mean, what exactly does it mean that we should observe the Torah? What part? I mean, it's obvious we do not take part in the sacrificial parts, for obvious reasons. Besides that, how do you decide what you follow and what you don't? For instance, I dont think that anyone would stone their child for not honering their parents, or no one stones a woman cought in adultry. I know that these are extreme examples, but I truely do not understand how, in this day and time you distinguish what to follow. And who gets to decide what ones to follow and what not? Who has the athority. I ask the questions because I truly want to know the truth. I want to know if the Messianics have it right. I want to be a good and faithful servant. I am not so narrow minded that I cant see a possibility that maybe some things I have been tought could be wrong, but getting at the truth is proving difficult. Thank you for any answers. Please forgive my spelling

 

[Steve Petersen]

... what exactly does it mean that we should observe the Torah? What part? I mean, it's obvious we do not take part in the sacrificial parts, for obvious reasons. Besides that, how do you decide what you follow and what you don't? For instance, I dont think that anyone would stone their child for not honering their parents, or no one stones a woman cought in adultry. I know that these are extreme examples, but I truely do not understand how, in this day and time you distinguish what to follow. And who gets to decide what ones to follow and what not? Who has the athority.

I have come to the conclusion that God anticipated Gentiles interest in Torah:

Deu 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. 6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. 7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? 8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

The Torah makes place for Gentiles who abide as 'stranger (Heb. ger) within the gates.'

Exo 12:19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.

Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. 49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Lev 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:

Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

These are only a few examples. I believe that there is 'one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism,' and one Torah, for the native born and the stranger. This is the essence of 'one new man' in Christ: regenerated and walking in the commandments of God, empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people:

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Though there is a different Hebrew word used here for stranger (nekar is the root) here, this stranger is one who has not been part of the community of Israel. God has a place for them too.

With regard to 'how much can/should I do?':

God gave Israel a system of judges and elders to administer the Torah. Punishments called out by the Torah were adjuticated and administered by them. Historically, there has been very little time when Israel's application of Torah law wasn't circumscribed by other who ruled over them (Persia, Greece, Rome, Russia, America and any other nation with a Jewish minority.) In these cases Torah law could only be applied to the extent that these foreigner allowed the Jews to do so. This is still true.

Who has authority? God endowed the elders, priests, and judges of Israel with authority. He also endowed 'the Prophet (Messiah) with authority. That Prophet's authority superseded the rulers:

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Jesus abided by most of the traditions of his people, but was unafraid to challenge them if needed. He had the authority to do that. I think it is reasonable that, since Jesus subjected Himself to most Pharasaic tradition of His day we can also (with the exception that we must take His position where there is disagreement.)

 

[Tishri1]

In the first century church they had the answer to that question:

Acts 15:19-21 19 "Therefore it is (a)my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from (1a)things contaminated by idols and from b)fornication and from (c)what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For (a)Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Moses is a synonym for Torah and that was how they learned was by being in the synogogues on the Sabbath hearing and discussing the Torah Readings for that week...same as today....Torah = Teaching and Instruction (and an inferior translation is Law)

I asked the same questions along time ago myself so I would guess everyone here has asked that same question about the Torah of God too at some point in their walk.... but how do you get around the scriptures both OT and NT that say we are to walk in His Ways and follow His Commands? I doubt you will find anyone who will say they can't figure it out now...It's amasing how simple this becomes once it gets written on your heart

 

[Voss]

In the first century church they had the answer to that question:

Acts 15:19-21 19 "Therefore it is (a)my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from (1a)things contaminated by idols and from b)fornication and from (c)what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For (a)Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

Moses is a synonym for Torah and that was how they learned was by being in the synogogues on the Sabbath hearing and discussing the Torah Readings for that week...same as today....Torah = Teaching and Instruction (and an inferior translation is Law)

I asked the same questions along time ago myself so I would guess everyone here has asked that same question about the Torah of God too at some point in their walk.... but how do you get around the scriptures both OT and NT that say we are to walk in His Ways and follow His Commands? I doubt you will find anyone who will say they can't figure it out now...It's amasing how simple this becomes once it gets written on your heart

What you say above makes sence to me, but it still does not answer my question. What part of the Torah or what commands do we obey? It is not even possible to follow them all as best I can tell. Truely I am not arguing. I just want to understand.

 

[Henaynei]

I hope it is ok to use this post, since is the same question I wanted to ask. And I hope by posting here that I do NOT come across as someone who is here to argue with the Messianic believers. I pray that you see it for what it is. I am a believer who is truly seeking the TRUTH. I was raised to believe the traditional christian views on observing the law or Torah. That is is no longer required. I have always had the same views as the original poster of this thread. I have read on different Messianic sites and really like the teaching of some of these sites but I just cant understand the whole observance of the law. I mean, what exactly does it mean that we should observe the Torah? What part? I mean, it's obvious we do not take part in the sacrificial parts, for obvious reasons. Besides that, how do you decide what you follow and what you don't? For instance, I don't think that anyone would stone their child for not honoring their parents, or no one stones a woman caught in adultery. I know that these are extreme examples, but I truly do not understand how, in this day and time you distinguish what to follow. And who gets to decide what ones to follow and what not? Who has the authority. I ask the questions because I truly want to know the truth. I want to know if the Messianics have it right. I want to be a good and faithful servant. I am not so narrow minded that I cant see a possibility that maybe some things I have been taught could be wrong, but getting at the truth is proving difficult. Thank you for any answers. Please forgive my spelling

Welcome to Wonderland Alice you are asking questions that every thinking and maturing Messianic has, is or will ask - usually many times during the course of their lifetime as a servant of HaShem/G-d

Two things that it might help to know:
1) the attitude toward Torah Observance is widely varied among those who call themselves Messianic


2) for those whose service of loving HaShem does include obeying His commands - we obey, or seek to grow in obedience, those commands that CAN be obeyed (that includes some 300+ of the 613 commands), limited by the following :

a) where we live - some things can only be done IN Israel

b) the lack of a Temple - there is a LOT that happened around the Temple that has nothing to do with the blood sacrifices

c) hindrances of the laws of the lands where we live - the theocratic law system is clearly submitted to the civil laws in all matters that do not require outright disobedience to G-d's Law - i.e. - even in non-Messianic Judaism it is accepted that while we must obey the negative commandments we are not required to obey the positive commandments where to do so would place us in violation of the civil laws

​

I hope this small amount of information will assist you on your journey of understanding



b'Shalom

Henaynie

 

[Steve Petersen]

Voss,

I gave it my best shot in post #6 above.

 

[Tishri1]

What you say above makes sence to me, but it still does not answer my question. What part of the Torah or what commands do we obey? It is not even possible to follow them all as best I can tell. Truely I am not arguing. I just want to understand.

I know what you are trying to say and I do understand....Have you ever visited a Messianic Congregation? You will learn alittle bit each week about what it means to be Torah Observant.

Most of the 613 commandments don't have anything to do with the Average Joe, many are for Men only, or Women only, or for the Priest in the Temple(impossible to do right now) or for those in Jerusalem only ect ect. I like to learn about them though as they come up in the weekly readings as they still offer insight into Yeshua and His future Kingdom.

Many things that others do in the Congregations are called Traditions of Men and I respect those who do those things though I don't do them( yet I try to learn from them as well even if I don't find them in the Torah ie:separating milk and meat)

Sabbath is a great beginning....Definately it's in the Torah and a great commandment to start with...don't you think? A very smart person once said that most Christians obey 95% of all the commandments that are possible to obey why not go all the way and seek out that last 10%?

 

[MyLittleWonders]

Personally, the first place my husband and I started with were keeping the Sabbath on Saturday, keeping the Feasts of Leviticus 23 (we celebrated our first Passover this year!), and keeping "kosher" - in other words, following the Biblical dietary laws of Leviticus 11. Then, as we read the Torah and heard it preached at shul (we have the priviledge of being able to attend a Messianic synagogue/shul near us), we incorporated those commandments into our lives. For instance, my husband wears tzitzit (tassels) every day. This comman came to us in the Sh'ma; once we read it and discussed it, we went out and bought him a tallit (prayer shawl) and some tallit katan (those little undershirts with the tassels/tzitzit on them). It's a learning process and like Henaynei stated above, we are all trying to figure out which commands are still possible to obey. And, what matters more than anything else, in my opinion, is that you have a heart that is striving to following the will of HaShem/God. With your heart focused on Him and your prayers asking for His guidance in following His commandments, He won't lead you astray.

Oh, another thing we did was print out a copy of the 613 commandments, like the one found here, and used those as we studied. We went through and looked at the ones that don't appear to be applicable in this day and age (no Temple, not living in Jerusalem/Israel, not living in a theocracy ...) and then examined those that were left. Again, it's a life long process, but I believe that HaShem will greatly bless those who strive to live in accordance to His ways - His Torah!

 

[Voss]

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to lose authority.

I t just appears to me that this partial observance to Torah is taking away more than "one tittle of the law"
You're answers have helped me tremendously, and has given me much to think about. Thank all of you so much for the explanations. I do with that there was a Messianic synagogue in my town so that I could attend and learn better. I have not found any in Springfield, MO. Thank you all again

 

[Wags]

I don't know anything about this congregation - just found their listing on Yashanet.com

SPRINGFIELD - BETH SIMCHA MESSIANIC SYNAGOGUE, Messianic Rabbi Hezekiah Mullens, 2853 East Division, Suite I, Springfield, Missouri, E-mail: messianict@aol.com, Website: www.Messianicvoice.org

 

[By Grace]

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to lose authority.

I t just appears to me that this partial observance to Torah is taking away more than "one tittle of the law"
You're answers have helped me tremendously, and has given me much to think about. Thank all of you so much for the explanations. I do with that there was a Messianic synagogue in my town so that I could attend and learn better. I have not found any in Springfield, MO. Thank you all again

I wouldn't say that "partial observance to Torah is taking away more than one tittle of the law", because it's not like we take a list of the laws, mark some out as no longer being important, then follow the others with no further thought to the ones we marked out. Rather, we look at the list, circle one or two or three, start obeying as best we can. Then as we grow into those, we add another one or two or three, and so on. And the ones we're not currently obeying, we still study and meditate on. And those that can't be obeyed today, such as the Temple laws, we pray and look forward to a time when they CAN be obeyed. We haven't "eliminated" any of the law; we're just slowly growing into it, like a toddler slowly grows into being a productive member of a household.

 

[Henaynei]

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to lose authority.

I t just appears to me that this partial observance to Torah is taking away more than "one tittle of the law"
You're answers have helped me tremendously, and has given me much to think about. Thank all of you so much for the explanations. I do with that there was a Messianic synagogue in my town so that I could attend and learn better. I have not found any in Springfield, MO. Thank you all again

no, you misunderstand - those who are observant firmly believe that not one jot or tittle has passed away

when you start reading the listing of the laws you will see that many of them can ONLY be done when there is a functioning Temple in Jerusalem, others can ONLY be done when IN Israel - additionally, once scattered into the Diaspora, the Jewish people had to find out how they could live in lands hostile to them and that often forbade certain observances at penalty of death, or would often trigger region wide pogroms that wiped out whole Jewish communities, and still obey HaShem - the rabbis made their determinations balanced by a statement in scripture "You shall live by Torah" determining the corollary "You shall live by Torah, not die by Torah" - there are of course certain exceptions where obedience is required, even on threat of death....

 

[Voss]

I don't know anything about this congregation - just found their listing on Yashanet.com

Thank you so much, I'm not sure that is still in operation, but I will check into it.

Thanks bunches to the rest of you as well You have given me great answers, and I will continue to study the subject, and most of all pray that our Father will gift me with insight and understanding. Peace to you all.

Your brother

 

[Tishri1]

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to lose authority.

I t just appears to me that this partial observance to Torah is taking away more than "one tittle of the law"
You're answers have helped me tremendously, and has given me much to think about. Thank all of you so much for the explanations. I do with that there was a Messianic synagogue in my town so that I could attend and learn better. I have not found any in Springfield, MO. Thank you all again

Missouri Springfield

Friend:Deaf Assembly of YHWH
PO Box 10040
Springfield, MO 65808-0040
United States
phone: 417-869-YHWH (9494)
Email: DeafBibleForum@aol.com
Leader: Greg Ross
Shabbat Meetings and all moadim. Call for meeting locations in Kansas City and Springfield.

Maybe these Guys can help

also....

http://members.tripod.com/rabbi_tim/mvi/

SPRINGFIELD - BETH SIMCHA MESSIANIC SYNAGOGUE, Messianic Rabbi Hezekiah Mullens, 2853 East Division, Suite I, Springfield, Missouri, E-mail: messianict@aol.com, Website: www.Messianicvoice.org



​

 

[yod]

Let me try it!

OK...this is probably not exactly as some here would see it but....


I believe we are to study the Torah and all it's precepts, ordinances, statutes, in order to help us understand the wisdom of the Father. To find what the purpose and intent of all His ways are.

In other words, the spirit of the law is what is important. There is nothing necessarily wrong with following the law to the letter as long as it is done for sanctification alone. It cannot save nor justify us before the Lord.

This is what is meant in Jeremiah when he says that, in the New Covenant, we will have the law written on our heart. How does one really know the spirit of the law until they have endeavored to at least know what the letter of the law says????

 

[Henaynei]

grrrrr.....Yod has his rep turned off

Let me try it!

OK...this is probably not exactly as some here would see it but....


I believe we are to study the Torah and all it's precepts, ordinances, statutes, in order to help us understand the wisdom of the Father. To find what the purpose and intent of all His ways are.

In other words, the spirit of the law is what is important. There is nothing necessarily wrong with following the law to the letter as long as it is done for sanctification alone. It cannot save nor justify us before the Lord.

This is what is meant in Jeremiah when he says that, in the New Covenant, we will have the law written on our heart. How does one really know the spirit of the law until they have endeavored to at least know what the letter of the law says????