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Help Me Complete the List of gay-Affirming Arguments

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MercyBurst

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If I say homosexuality is a sin, and that practicing homosexuals probably aren't christians, let's hear what you think about it:


"Matt. 7:1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

"And let's draw the line in the sand and say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Who is ready to throw the first stone? Any takers?"

"You ought to keep to yourself and dwell on your own sins and get right with God, rather than saying Christians that are homosexual are not Christian."

"Why can't you focus on helping the poor and needy around the world instead of picking on gays."

"Jesus never condemned a homosexual."

"Telling someone that they aren't a Christian because of a certain sin, is actually causing many whom would otherwise remain believers to deconvert."

"This is a fine example of the "Christian: as long as they agree with me" attitude that has splintered Christianity into the mess it's in today. "

"Is it not better to care for them, lead them to Christ's mercy and let Christ Himself convict them towards the changes they may need."
 

eastcoast_bsc

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If I say homosexuality is a sin, and that practicing homosexuals probably aren't christians, let's hear what you think about it:


"Matt. 7:1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

"And let's draw the line in the sand and say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Who is ready to throw the first stone? Any takers?"

"You ought to keep to yourself and dwell on your own sins and get right with God, rather than saying Christians that are homosexual are not Christian."

"Why can't you focus on helping the poor and needy around the world instead of picking on gays."

"Jesus never condemned a homosexual."

"Telling someone that they aren't a Christian because of a certain sin, is actually causing many whom would otherwise remain believers to deconvert."

"This is a fine example of the "Christian: as long as they agree with me" attitude that has splintered Christianity into the mess it's in today. "

"Is it not better to care for them, lead them to Christ's mercy and let Christ Himself convict them towards the changes they may need."

I refuse to answer this question on the grounds that you are not mercyburst. The real Mercyburst made a very public statement that he could not in good faith continue as a forum member of Christian Forums. I request that you admit that you are not mercyburst, because you know the real mercyburst Vowed that he was leaving this forum due to his strong values and morals as a true Fundamentalist. ;)
 
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ken777

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Moses condemned homosexual behaviour Leviticus 20:13

Jesus condemned homosexual behaviour Mark 7:20-23

Paul condemned homosexual behaviour Romans 1:26-27

We are told to condemn homosexual behaviour Ephesians 5:11-13

OK, I know you wanted to hear what "they" say ... but I wanted to get my position clear first!
 
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MercyBurst

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I refuse to answer this question on the grounds that you are not mercyburst. The real Mercyburst made a very public statement that he could not in good faith continue as a forum member of Christian Forums. I request that you admit that you are not mercyburst, because you know the real mercyburst Vowed that he was leaving this forum due to his strong values and morals as a true Fundamentalist. ;)

ok, I had several members of CF beg that I stay. I'm actually wanted here by someone. Imagine that! However, the conditions have changed: I will not debate you. I am here to take your best excuse. So give it your best shot. You already have a gentleman here that has pitted the biblical position against yours. You can pretend he's the real Mercyburst and take out your wrath on him.

By the way I'm still 100% fundie. I passed with flying colors when they accepted me on the fundie forum. You can hear my fundamentlist rhetoric over there if you're really craving a good dose of it. ;)

PS: I hear one of your heavy-hitters, Gweynapnud, couldn't stay here either.
 
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SpiritDriven

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I think Romans 9 settles the dispute.... you can live a Law based Life and stand condemned to death by it....or you can live a Faith based life and be righteouse.

The Potter has right over the Clay....what vessel can complain about the way they where made in light of that...God made them that way...see for yourself..

1 The truth am I telling in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifying together with me in holy spirit,
2 That my sorrow is great, and unintermittent pain is in my heart --
3 for I myself wished to be anathema from Christ -- for my brethren, my relatives according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, whose is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the legislation and the divine service and the promises;
5 whose are the fathers, and out of whom is the Christ according to the flesh, Who is over all, God be blessed for the eons. Amen!
6 Now it is not such as that the word of God has lapsed, for not all those out of Israel, these are Israel;
7 neither that Abraham's seed are all children, but "In Isaac shall your seed be called."
8 That is, that the children of the flesh, not these are the children of God, but the children of the promise is He reckoning for the seed.
9 For the word of the promise is this: At "this season" I shall come "and there will be for Sarah a son."
10 Yet, not only so, but Rebecca also is having her bed of one, Isaac, our father.
11 For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling,
12 it was declared to her that "The greater shall be slaving for the inferior,"
13 According as it is written, "Jacob I love, yet Esau I hate."
14 What, then, shall we be declaring? Not that there is injustice with God? May it not be coming to that!
15 For to Moses He is saying, "I shall be merciful to whomever I may be merciful, and I shall be pitying whomever I may be pitying."
16 Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful.
17 For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that "For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth."
18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.
19 You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?"
20 O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?"
21 Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?
22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction,
23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory --
24 us, whom He calls also, not only out of the Jews, but out of the nations also.
25 As He is saying in Hosea also: I shall be calling those who are not My people "My people," And she who is not beloved "Beloved,"
26 "And it shall be, in the place where it was declared to them, 'Not My people are you,'" There "they shall be called 'sons of the living God.'"
27 Now Isaiah is crying over Israel, If the number of the sons of Israel should be as the sand of the sea, the residue shall be saved,
28 for "a conclusive and concise accounting the Lord will be doing on the earth."
29 And according as Isaiah declared before, "Except the Lord of hosts conserved us a seed, As Sodom would we become, And to Gomorrah would we be likened."
30 What, then, shall we be declaring? That the nations who are not pursuing righteousness overtook righteousness, yet a righteousness which is out of faith.
31 Yet Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, into a law of righteousness does not outstrip.
32 Wherefore? Seeing that it is not out of faith, but as out of law works, they stumble on the stumbling stone,
33 according as it is written: Lo! I am laying in Zion a Stumbling Stone and a Snare Rock, And the one believing on Him shall not be disgraced.

Peace
 
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MrPirate

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If I say homosexuality is a sin, and that practicing homosexuals probably aren't christians, let's hear what you think about it:


"Matt. 7:1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

"And let's draw the line in the sand and say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Who is ready to throw the first stone? Any takers?"

"You ought to keep to yourself and dwell on your own sins and get right with God, rather than saying Christians that are homosexual are not Christian."

"Why can't you focus on helping the poor and needy around the world instead of picking on gays."

"Jesus never condemned a homosexual."

"Telling someone that they aren't a Christian because of a certain sin, is actually causing many whom would otherwise remain believers to deconvert."

"This is a fine example of the "Christian: as long as they agree with me" attitude that has splintered Christianity into the mess it's in today. "

"Is it not better to care for them, lead them to Christ's mercy and let Christ Himself convict them towards the changes they may need."
I can still say I’m a biblical literalist even though I purposefully reject accurate translations for arsenokoités, malakos, shakab, and paraphysin.

It isn’t bigotry if I can misuse a couple bible verses to prop up my own personal prejudice.

It’s OK to say an entire minority aren’t Christians because I decide who is and not a Christian …and then I inform God of my decisions

Of course the laws of Leviticus don’t apply to ME that would be so inconvenient, the laws of Leviticus only apply to homosexuals.

….

Oh wait….you wanted people to help you support your own prejudice not point out the glaring flaw in your own arguments. Oops…my bad:blush:
 
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MercyBurst

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I can still say I’m a biblical literalist even though I purposefully reject accurate translations for arsenokoités, malakos, shakab, and paraphysin.

ok, so the claim here is that none of the bible translators could get it right. would you like to explain how they got it all wrong?

It isn’t bigotry if I can misuse a couple bible verses to prop up my own personal prejudice.

Could you be specific about how that is being done by so many christians that you disagree with? Is it the Jesus we believe in?

It’s OK to say an entire minority aren’t Christians because I decide who is and not a Christian …and then I inform God of my decisions

ok, most christians believe repentence is needed for salvation. Do you disagree? If you agree that repentence is needed, then what is your understanding of repentence?


Of course the laws of Leviticus don’t apply to ME that would be so inconvenient, the laws of Leviticus only apply to homosexuals.

Do you suppose God gave those laws to start with? If yes, then why did he give them? If no, then what should we do with the OT?

Oh wait….you wanted people to help you support your own prejudice not point out the glaring flaw in your own arguments. Oops…my bad:blush:

Please point out the glaring flaws. We are waiting for you. :sleep:
 
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MrPirate

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ok, so the claim here is that none of the bible translators could get it right. would you like to explain how they got it all wrong?

It only took three.

And people have done worse with the bible to justify things like racism, genocide, euthanasia, slavery, marital rape, torture and so on and so on…




Could you be specific about how that is being done by so many christians that you disagree with? Is it the Jesus we believe in?
This thread is a fine example


ok, most christians believe repentence is needed for salvation. Do you disagree? If you agree that repentence is needed, then what is your understanding of repentence?
No one gets to say anything about an individuals relationship with God…it is between God and the individual.



Do you suppose God gave those laws to start with? If yes, then why did he give them? If no, then what should we do with the OT?
Are you claiming you follow ALL of the laws of the old testament?
ALL?
Do you shave?
Fell compelled to marry you widowed sister in law?
Kill rape victims?
Murder disobedient children?
Get haircuts?
Let people who wear glasses into your church?
Support slavery?


Please point out the glaring flaws. We are waiting for you. :sleep:

The fact you are ignoring John 13:34-35 is the most glaring flaw
 
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MercyBurst

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[/font]
It only took three.

Do you suppose they lied about fornication and adultery too? Or will you claim they were only picking on gays? Is adultery sin, is fornication sin, is gay sex sin?

And people have done worse with the bible to justify things like racism, genocide, euthanasia, slavery, marital rape, torture and so on and so on…

So did the bible get it wrong about fornication and adultery?


This thread is a fine example

a fine example of what?


No one gets to say anything about an individuals relationship with God…it is between God and the individual.


So do you believe that christ died for our sins yes or no? Do you agree that christianity "sans repentence" is impossible?

Are you claiming you follow ALL of the laws of the old testament?
ALL?
Do you shave?
Fell compelled to marry you widowed sister in law?
Kill rape victims?
Murder disobedient children?
Get haircuts?
Let people who wear glasses into your church?
Support slavery?

I just asked you what we can learn from the OT laws. Paul said the law is our school master.


The fact you are ignoring John 13:34-35 is the most glaring flaw

and tell me what you think it says.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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ok, I had several members of CF beg that I stay. I'm actually wanted here by someone. Imagine that! However, the conditions have changed: I will not debate you. I am here to take your best excuse. So give it your best shot. You already have a gentleman here that has pitted the biblical position against yours. You can pretend he's the real Mercyburst and take out your wrath on him.

By the way I'm still 100% fundie. I passed with flying colors when they accepted me on the fundie forum. You can hear my fundamentlist rhetoric over there if you're really craving a good dose of it. ;)

PS: I hear one of your heavy-hitters, Gweynapnud, couldn't stay here either.


I thought the coalition forces had taken care of Mullah Dadullah :D . I will be sure to drop by the Fundie forum and read the rhetoric. Do ya think they could make me a sorta House mainstream Christian ? As for your question, nah I pass, Too juvenile for my tatste ;)
 
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MercyBurst

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I thought the coalition forces had taken care of Mullah Dadullah :D . I will be sure to drop by the Fundie forum and read the rhetoric. Do ya think they could make me a sorta House mainstream Christian ? As for your question, nah I pass, Too juvenile for my tatste ;)

in other words -- you have no excuses. That's ok, I can respect that.
 
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MrPirate

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Do you suppose they lied about fornication and adultery too? Or will you claim they were only picking on gays? Is adultery sin, is fornication sin, is gay sex sin?

Who said anything about lying? No one…so put the red herring away


So did the bible get it wrong about fornication and adultery?

Again, put the red herring away




a fine example of what?
You asked the question





So do you believe that christ died for our sins yes or no? Do you agree that christianity "sans repentence" is impossible?
:scratch: do you have a point?



I just asked you what we can learn from the OT laws. Paul said the law is our school master.
So it would seem you don’t bother with old testament laws you find personally inconvenient.



and tell me what you think it says.
the point was made. yet you still continue to ignore John 13:34-35
 
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MercyBurst

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Who said anything about lying? No one…so put the red herring away

Tell me which of the following is or is not sin according to your understanding of scripture:

1) adultery
2) prostitution
3) fornication
4) gay sex

the point was made. yet you still continue to ignore John 13:34-35

You brought it up, and I asked you to explain it, but you have not. Until you do explain, you've made no point. I fully agree with what John 13:34-35 has to say, by the way.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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in other words -- you have no excuses. That's ok, I can respect that.

No, the point is that I don't need to defend myself to every Fundie from East you know what. I just responded because you made such a public display, that you could no longer continue on on this forum, due to its Ungodliness. But came back after like a 3 day hiatus. I will be sure to mention your name when I visit the Fundie forum :)
 
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MercyBurst

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No, the point is that I don't need to defend myself to every Fundie from East you know what. I just responded because you made such a public display, that you could no longer continue on on this forum, due to its Ungodliness. But came back after like a 3 day hiatus. I will be sure to mention your name when I visit the Fundie forum :)


you can't post there. tisk tisk.
 
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irateional

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All I'm going to say is what I say any time to anyone when they say "is this a sin! What should we do?"

Simple.

When Jesus died on the cross, he did something incredible. He liberated us by fufilling the old covenant. The rules of the OT, the required traditions all become meaningless. It's not that the OT is no longer useless. Rather by being liberated of death in sin, we are also freed of sin in life.

No longer do we need to preoccupy ourselves with who's sinning and who isn't, no longer do we need arcane rituals to find redemption in God's eyes. Instead, by fufilling the covenant, God frees us to do what Jesus did in his ministry. To help other human beings.

Because of this, let's no longer be preoccupied with the God of sin and judgement. Learn to work past your cultural prejudices and such, and learn to be great Christians.

God bless and save.
 
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irateional

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Tell me which of the following is or is not sin according to your understanding of scripture:

1) adultery
2) prostitution
3) fornication
4) gay sex



You brought it up, and I asked you to explain it, but you have not. Until you do explain, you've made no point. I fully agree with what John 13:34-35 has to say, by the way.
Ok.

Adultery is obviously wrong. It's a betrayal of people, and if you betray people, then you're betraying God's children, and thus attacking God.

Prostitution belongs in the same category, as you take God's precious gift to mankind and prostitute it. You take something unique and beautiful, and throw it about, abusing a great toy.

Fornication is more complicated. I see no issue with sex in a committed long term relationship. Even if in the end the relationship fails. I say this, not so much claiming it's God's way. I do not have the RIGHT to do that. Rather, i say it, because simply enough, sex is about bringing people together, and I don't see how any long term romantic relationship will do really well with it.

Now...promiscuous sex (sex with whomever is availible) is a different story. It's wrong, because it's basically based only on simple animal lust, and not around trying to love another person in the deep emotional way.

Homosexuality, assuming it's stable and monogamous, isn't something to get in arms about. Lots of things were banned in the OT to keep the state of Israel safe. As Christians we arne't bound to that. From this liberation, we should look at homosexuals and ask:

A) Do they hurt or betray anyone? Not really.
B) Does God actually say it's wrong? Once again, we've only got the OT passage saying it. That's not the same.

In the NT, when Paul talks about sexual sins, they're all promiscuous in nature. Temple prostitues, child sex, all sorts of horrible deeds that were rooted in animal lust, and not in any attempt to form deep spirtual bonds.

In other words, if you're gay and you're into comiitted meaningful relationships, then by all means, you're a good person in my book.

But I claim to be NO authority about the Bible.
 
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ken777

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In the NT, when Paul talks about sexual sins, they're all promiscuous in nature. Temple prostitues, child sex, all sorts of horrible deeds that were rooted in animal lust, and not in any attempt to form deep spirtual bonds.

No one ever heard that argument until the homosexual community decided they would take on the Bible and make David and Jonathan, and Ruth and Naomi, and the Roman centurion and his servant, and even Jesus and John, into gay lovers.

In other words, if you're gay and you're into committed meaningful relationships, then by all means, you're a good person in my book.

They're a good person in my book too ... but we are talking about behaviour, and whether Christians have the right (duty?) to speak against behaviour which is unscriptural.
 
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