Help Identifying Christian Sect

[abdul-karim]

I had the pleasure of meeting and speaking with a young man who explained his Church's theology (although he either did not tell me which Church or I do not recall) and it struck me as being fairly close to the Christianity that was preached by James in Jerusalem.

In particular these beliefs included:

• Rejection of Paul (Saul of Tarsus)
  
• Rejection of Trinity
• Rejection of All Ecumenical Councils
• Belief that Jesus (PBUH) was fully human and in no way divine
• That the laws in the Torah are still intact and relevant, including dietary restrictions
  
• Accepted the Crucifixion and Resurrection, however denied the Doctrine of Atonement of the Blood
  

Like I have stated: These beliefs, while being very Unorthodox are technically Christian. However, I believe this may be a reconstruction and not something that has survived into present day.

Any help in identifying this group (or a list of possibilities) would be of great help.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Probably a non-Trinitarian Messianic Jew.

 

[abdul-karim]

That very well could be the case, Ishraqiyun! I hadn't even thought about that. Thanks!

 

[Borromeo]

Sounds like a "Talmidi" (try google).

 

[ephraimanesti]

Like I have stated: These beliefs, while being very Unorthodox are technically Christian.

MY FRIEND,

There is nothing "christian"--technically or otherwise--in your list of non-beliefs. All the basics of the Christian Faith--Jesus the Christ's Divinity, the Tri-unity of the Godhead, the sacrificial atonement of the Blood, etc.--are denied.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim[bless and do not curse]

 

[razeontherock]

Right. He denied Christ. So he may well be a Jew.

 

[chilehed]

I had the pleasure of meeting and speaking with a young man who explained his Church's theology (although he either did not tell me which Church or I do not recall) and it struck me as being fairly close to the Christianity that was preached by James in Jerusalem.

In particular these beliefs included:

• Rejection of Paul (Saul of Tarsus)
  
• Rejection of Trinity
• Rejection of All Ecumenical Councils
• Belief that Jesus (PBUH) was fully human and in no way divine
• That the laws in the Torah are still intact and relevant, including dietary restrictions
  
• Accepted the Crucifixion and Resurrection, however denied the Doctrine of Atonement of the Blood
  

Like I have stated: These beliefs, while being very Unorthodox are technically Christian. However, I believe this may be a reconstruction and not something that has survived into present day.

Any help in identifying this group (or a list of possibilities) would be of great help.

Thanks,
Mike

There are literally thousands of communities that have unorthodox beliefs, and although some might hold beliefs in common they're not organically connected to each other. So I won't even try to guess.

But these beliefs are NOT Christian, and they aren't at all what James spoke of. In this case, it sounds like a mixture of the Circumciser, Sabbelian, and Arian heresies, with some other yet-unnamed ones thrown in.

 

[abdul-karim]

Chilehed et al.,

Thank you for your replies, it was enjoyable to hear from you all. However, it must be noted that the precepts that you're speaking of were not always Christian doctrine.

In fact, each in the list that I had originally posted, was at several points in time the official standpoint of the Church. For example: aside from there being no scriptural evidence for the doctrine of Trinity, we know this belief was actually of the minority at the time of the Council of Chalcedon.

So yes, technically, these beliefs are (or rather were) Christian.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[chilehed]

However, it must be noted that the precepts that you're speaking of were not always Christian doctrine.

In fact, each in the list that I had originally posted, was at several points in time the official standpoint of the Church. For example: aside from there being no scriptural evidence for the doctrine of Trinity, we know this belief was actually of the minority at the time of the Council of Chalcedon.

So yes, technically, these beliefs are (or rather were) Christian.

Thanks,
Mike

Well, this is not a debate forum, and I'm not sure it's within the rules to rebut such an assertion even if it's made by the OP. But I'd like to point out that if you wish to come to a correct conclusion about whether or not something was ever the official teaching of the Church, you have to abide by how the Church defines whether or not something is definitively held. You do not appear to be doing that.

 

[razeontherock]

That and Trinity is throughout Scripture ...

 

[abdul-karim]

Chilehed,

Yes, I am aware that this is not a debate forum, and that it is against the rules of the forum to do a debate. However, making matters known from known sources within Christianity from Christian sources and ancient texts is not a debate.

As this is not my personal belief, I am not implying that either of you (or him) are correct or incorrect. And were we speaking of my own system of beliefs, I would simply agree to disagree and let it be as it is.

As per the Church definitively holding beliefs: As a matter of fact, the Councils made several beliefs BINDING on the churches that had been in attendance and had rejected the notion of Trinity (and other doctrines), and made it their doctrine several times.

As I have stated, my intention was not to "incite a riot" per se, but was actually to try and determine where this individual was coming from. From only a scholarly point of view and not a religious one.

On the topic of rebuttals:
Because we are all adults here, please feel free to show documented evidences supporting your claims and beliefs. For all you know, you may be the one to get me to accept Christianity. To quote Thessalonians, "Prove all things and hold fast to that which is good (accurate)." To me, religion is just as much about proof as it is beliefs.

Thanks,
Mike

P.S. Razeontherock, the few places where Trinity is used in the scriptures have been shown to be much later additions (fourth, fifth and sixth centuries). In particular, the verses that begin with "there are three who bear witness in heaven..." as well as the one wherein Jesus is teaching his disciples how to baptise using the Triune formula.

It is not my intention to insult or offend deeply held religious beliefs. Were your statement "Trinity is the truth" I would not have been able to argue with it.


Edit:
In addition, this was originally posted where such actives were less discouraged, and erroneously placed here. Therefore I will treat the rules for this thread as though it were still in its proper place.

 

[chilehed]

As per the Church definitively holding beliefs: As a matter of fact, the Councils made several beliefs BINDING on the churches that had been in attendance and had rejected the notion of Trinity (and other doctrines), and made it their doctrine several times.

That's a vague assertion. But since you aren't the arbiter of forum rules, and those who are (the moderators) moved the thread to this part of the forum, the normal rules apply.

If you'd like to ask questions along the lines of "the Council of Thusandso said this, help me understand how that does not constitute a dogmatic teaching of the Church", then we can have a conversation here. But that's not the direction that the thread is taking.

 

[abdul-karim]

No, certainly don't want it to go there, however, I really can't help but make myself clear on certain topics as we go through the process. Something that looks and feels a lot like debating or apologetics, but it really is just a quick-and-dirty education meant for laypeople. (One of many of my character flaws.)

The purpose for this thread was to help identify this individual's belief system (as he said he belonged to a church that held similar beliefs).

I didn't get an answer I was happy with, however, I did get one from the first reply. It was then that my simple question became a bit of a debate topic and therefore I turned into a Social Experiment.

The results I found interesting, people don't seem to be able to separate their beliefs from documented scholarly evidences. This is not a shocking discovery, because it is one that we encountered quite frequently even among fellow Seminarians.

I do thank you and everyone else for being a good sport through all of this. As well as to the original replier who was able to give me at least some idea of what I had encountered.