help-how would you respond

[Beoga]

i am getting into a debate with someone on another site about predistination/calvinism and she posted this and I wasn't sure how to respond since i am kind of new to the reformed theology and wanted to make sure that i represented the beliefs correctly. so how would you respond to this:

Some more thoughts here to throw out things I wanna adress because I don't believe God sticks us in a "matrix" game.

I'm going to address the following points that I find unbiblical in the Calvinist teachings....

1.It is Gods will that Some people perish
2.We are not sinners Because of Sin but we Sin because we are sinners
3.We cannot chose to accept Gods Grace, we cannot resist God
4.Jesus died for the sins of only the "elect" and not for all
5.We were created totally corrupt with sin- it is our nature

--------------------------

1. It is God's will that Some People Perish-
According to the Bible God wants to see everyone come to him.
In 2 Peter 3:9 The Bible says:
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish , but everyone to come to repentance.”
Note the word EVERYONE.

Also note 1Timothy 2:1-4
"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Here we see that it is a lie to say God has chosen people to go to hell. It would be a contradiction with: "God our savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

2. We are not sinners Because of Sin but we Sin because we are sinners-
Although it should make sense that we are sinners because we sin, there are still those who do not believe this. It is as foolish to believe that "we are not sinners because of sin" as it is to believe "people are not alcoholics because they drink alcohol". Of coarse people who alcoholics become that way because they drink alcohol. They do not drink alcohol because they are alcoholics but they are alcoholics because they drink alcohol. The other way around is to put things backwards! We do not sin because we are sinners, we are sinners because we have sinned. Adam and Eve were not always sinners, they were innocent at one time in the garden of Eden and walked with God until they sinned. Because they sinned they became Sinners and were kicked out of the Garden. Although it may not seem significant which order it is in, the order is important when interpreting the Bible. To put it backwards can change the whole meaning and distort what the bible really says about our nature and what makes us that way. To say that we are sinners not because we have sinned first implies God created creation corrupt- While we know that according to the Bible, everything created was good, until man chose to BECOME corrupt.

3. We cannot chose to accept Gods Grace, we cannot resist God-
There are many verses which show that God allows us free will to accept his Grace or resist him.
First about choosing- the calvanists believe we cannot choose- that God does the choosing we cannot resist it. Whey then would there be verses that talk about us choosing???

Joshua 24:15
"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, ... But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD ." He goes on to say some more talk about their CHOICE... in verses 20-22:
"'If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.'
But the people said to Joshua, 'No! We will serve the LORD.'
Then Joshua said, 'You are witnesses against yourselves that you have CHOSEN to serve the LORD.'"

Notice Joshua talking about choice.
Now here is God himself laying down CHOICE in Deut.20:19-20
"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

Now another thing... if God was the one who created "faith" in us... and it wasn't something we chose to do, then why is Abrahams faith credited to him as righteousness???
"Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness." Romans 4:9. If believing and having faith is not OUR action but God making us believe how could it be righteousness credited to Abraham???

1Peter 3:1-2 says:
“In the same way be submissive to your husbands so that , if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives when they see the purity and reverence of you lives.”
Why would the Bible write "they may be won over" if they do not have the ability to resist the Grace of God? We obviously see that "persuasion" may happen because of a persons individual choices.

Another interesting verse is Proverbs 22:6,
“Train up a Child in the way he should go and even when he is old he will not depart from it.”
If a Christian does not have a say in whether they want to accept or reject God- if there is no free will, then this verse would be implying that those who train their Child properly will be rewarded with the Salvation of their Children. (If their Children did not have a decision or choice to make because they cannot RESIST God.)
Obviously that is not what this verse means at all. It is telling us that training our Children in what is right has an influence over the decisions it will make as an adult.

Does God use FORCE?!
If God is all powerful would he impose his power on his chosen people so that they could NOT reject him? The Israelites (the Jews) were indeed God’s chosen people, but yet they still had the free will to reject God, and turn from him. Just because, “God elected them,” did not mean that they always “elect him back”. They made a decision, to love God or not, even though he loved, and wanted them all to be his people. Matthew 21:42-44 speaks of Gods chosen people, (the Jews saying
“‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? Therefore, I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Infact we further see from God's word that God is NOT forceful. The Spirit of God is gentle.
Jesus calls himself Gentle: (Matthew 11:29)
“For I am Gentle and humble in heart.”
He does not force himself on us, but he waits for us to let him into our hearts.

So Can We Resist the Holy Spirit?! (Acts 7:51-53)
“‘You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him- You who have received the law that was put into effect through the angles but have not obeyed it.’”


4. Jesus died for the sins of only the "elect" and not for all-
This is a BIG Contradiction of the word of God, The Bible teaches us that Christ died for those that accept him and those that don't. It teaches us that Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

John 2:2
"He . . . is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

Salvation is by faith, (Because of Grace) but the Grace needed for Salvation is available to ALL!!!
1 Peter 3:18
"For Christ died for sins, once for ALL. The righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made alive by the Spirit."
Romans 5:6-11
“You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16
"For God so Loved the World, that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Notice the words "FOR ALL", & "THE WORLD" and "While we were still sinners". There is nothing to suggest that It is only for the "elect" few who accept him. He provided a way through his grace for the whole world while we didn't even recognize him. ("While were still sinners, when we were Gods enemies".) The idea, of God selecting people to be saved, is not all together, because it assumes that Christ would only love, and save, those that he has chosen to Love him back, however we know that God loves everyone, including his “enemies” (Romans 5:10) and his plan of salvation, was not limited to those who would love him only, it was meant for all! Why is it, that only those who accept it, and chose to believe, become saved? Simple, it is NOT because God’s plan is limited, but that we as humans limit God. Our sin, limits his presence in our life, and, our rejection of his presence, limits his eternal reconciliation. Gods’ grace is “sufficient” (2 Corinthians 12:9) to save all human beings, but we are the ones who reject God. We limit him, by not opening our hearts to him, and loving him, and accepting his gift.

God says that his grace, is a “gift” from God. As we know, a gift is something great that someone has freely offered us. We are never obliged to take a gift, even though it would be silly not to take it. A Gift, is something we can chose to take, or say ‘no thanks’ too. These verse acknowledge, that humans have Rejected God:

Acts 4:11, 1 Peter 2:4
Mark 9:12 Says: “It is written, ‘the Son of man must suffer much and be rejected.’”

Simple Question
Here is a simple Question, to those who believe that we were elected by God to hear his call,... WHEN where we “elected”? When God created us... or when we made the decision (-pardon the lack of a better term-) to accept Jesus in our Hearts? If we were elected on the day we were made, then a person can die without confessing that he has sinned, and still be covered with the blood of Christ. (Disproving 1John 1:9.) If it is the day that he makes the choice, then it is dependent upon the will of the person, as well as the sacrifice of God.

5. We were created totally corrupt with sin- it is our nature-
Did God create humans incapable of reaching out to him? Does our sin make it impossible for us to recognize our maker?! When we look at Genesis 3:8-10 we see that this is not the case.
"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
But the LORD God called to the man, 'Where are you?'
He answered, 'I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.'"

Here we see that even after Adam had sinned that he heard God's voice and he still recognized his maker. Although he hid, he was capable of responding to God on his own. The fact that we are sinners often clouds our judgment and makes us respond to God unfavorably (e.g. Adam hiding from God) but it does not prevent us from recognizing God or hearing his call and making decisions to it.

Another Serious problem that arises when people say we were created totally corrupt with sin, and that this is our nature, is that we are not recognizing the Way God created us. It contradicts the Bible. According to the Bible, When God created man, he made us in his image and saw that it was good. Once we sinned God kicked us out of the Garden of Eden and man has continued to sin since then and is incapable of getting away from sin. But It was not his Will that we should eat from the tree and become sinners, that was our decision. He has never created man "BAD" or taken away our free will to make choices.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

the first thing I would suggest is to make the font and color a little more readable. I am not even going to begin reading all of this and end up with a headache.

 

[Beoga]

hopefully this is better-i am the worst at mixing fonts and colors.

 

[II Paradox II]

hopefully this is better-i am the worst at mixing fonts and colors.

use black as your font color. It has the highest contrast so it's the easiest to read. It would also help to increase your font size by 1

ken

 

[rmwilliamsll]

i'm not going to tackle the whole thing. but just this point

2. We are not sinners Because of Sin but we Sin because we are sinners-
Although it should make sense that we are sinners because we sin, there are still those who do not believe this. It is as foolish to believe that "we are not sinners because of sin" as it is to believe "people are not alcoholics because they drink alcohol". Of coarse people who alcoholics become that way because they drink alcohol. They do not drink alcohol because they are alcoholics but they are alcoholics because they drink alcohol. The other way around is to put things backwards! We do not sin because we are sinners, we are sinners because we have sinned. Adam and Eve were not always sinners, they were innocent at one time in the garden of Eden and walked with God until they sinned. Because they sinned they became Sinners and were kicked out of the Garden. Although it may not seem significant which order it is in, the order is important when interpreting the Bible. To put it backwards can change the whole meaning and distort what the bible really says about our nature and what makes us that way. To say that we are sinners not because we have sinned first implies God created creation corrupt- While we know that according to the Bible, everything created was good, until man chose to BECOME corrupt.

we are not Adam and Eve, we are born in sin and sinful by nature from conception. our sins flow from a sinful deceitful heart which hates God until such time as He replaces the old heart and gives us the new heart of faith.

the corruption of nature occurs because of Adam's disobedience, not just the corruption of our, his offspring, natures but the very creation itself is somehow broken, specifics are unknown. natural man does not choose to be corrupt but works out those things in his corrupted heart.

we are post-fall, not strattling the curse, but the result of both it and it's outworks through time.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

use black as your font color. It has the highest contrast so it's the easiest to read. It would also help to increase your font size by 1

ken

I little better, but black is still preferable.

 

[Bulldog]

Here, let me put in black so that everyone can read it:

--------------------------------------------------------------


i am getting into a debate with someone on another site about predistination/calvinism and she posted this and I wasn't sure how to respond since i am kind of new to the reformed theology and wanted to make sure that i represented the beliefs correctly. so how would you respond to this:

Some more thoughts here to throw out thi
I'm going ngs I wanna adress because I don't believe God sticks us in a "matrix" game.
to address the following points that I find unbiblical in the Calvinist teachings....

1.It is Gods will that Some people perish
2.We are not sinners Because of Sin but we Sin because we are sinners
3.We cannot chose to accept Gods Grace, we cannot resist God
4.Jesus died for the sins of only the "elect" and not for all
5.We were created totally corrupt with sin- it is our nature

--------------------------

1. It is God's will that Some People Perish-
According to the Bible God wants to see everyone come to him.
In 2 Peter 3:9 The Bible says:
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish , but everyone to come to repentance.”
Note the word EVERYONE.

Also note 1Timothy 2:1-4
"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Here we see that it is a lie to say God has chosen people to go to hell. It would be a contradiction with: "God our savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

2. We are not sinners Because of Sin but we Sin because we are sinners-
Although it should make sense that we are sinners because we sin, there are still those who do not believe this. It is as foolish to believe that "we are not sinners because of sin" as it is to believe "people are not alcoholics because they drink alcohol". Of coarse people who alcoholics become that way because they drink alcohol. They do not drink alcohol because they are alcoholics but they are alcoholics because they drink alcohol. The other way around is to put things backwards! We do not sin because we are sinners, we are sinners because we have sinned. Adam and Eve were not always sinners, they were innocent at one time in the garden of Eden and walked with God until they sinned. Because they sinned they became Sinners and were kicked out of the Garden. Although it may not seem significant which order it is in, the order is important when interpreting the Bible. To put it backwards can change the whole meaning and distort what the bible really says about our nature and what makes us that way. To say that we are sinners not because we have sinned first implies God created creation corrupt- While we know that according to the Bible, everything created was good, until man chose to BECOME corrupt.

3. We cannot chose to accept Gods Grace, we cannot resist God-
There are many verses which show that God allows us free will to accept his Grace or resist him.
First about choosing- the calvanists believe we cannot choose- that God does the choosing we cannot resist it. Whey then would there be verses that talk about us choosing???

Joshua 24:15
"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, ... But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD ." He goes on to say some more talk about their CHOICE... in verses 20-22:
"'If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.'
But the people said to Joshua, 'No! We will serve the LORD.'
Then Joshua said, 'You are witnesses against yourselves that you have CHOSEN to serve the LORD.'"

Notice Joshua talking about choice.
Now here is God himself laying down CHOICE in Deut.20:19-20
"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

Now another thing... if God was the one who created "faith" in us... and it wasn't something we chose to do, then why is Abrahams faith credited to him as righteousness???
"Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness." Romans 4:9. If believing and having faith is not OUR action but God making us believe how could it be righteousness credited to Abraham???

1Peter 3:1-2 says:
“In the same way be submissive to your husbands so that , if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives when they see the purity and reverence of you lives.”
Why would the Bible write "they may be won over" if they do not have the ability to resist the Grace of God? We obviously see that "persuasion" may happen because of a persons individual choices.

Another interesting verse is Proverbs 22:6,
“Train up a Child in the way he should go and even when he is old he will not depart from it.”
If a Christian does not have a say in whether they want to accept or reject God- if there is no free will, then this verse would be implying that those who train their Child properly will be rewarded with the Salvation of their Children. (If their Children did not have a decision or choice to make because they cannot RESIST God.)
Obviously that is not what this verse means at all. It is telling us that training our Children in what is right has an influence over the decisions it will make as an adult.

Does God use FORCE?!
If God is all powerful would he impose his power on his chosen people so that they could NOT reject him? The Israelites (the Jews) were indeed God’s chosen people, but yet they still had the free will to reject God, and turn from him. Just because, “God elected them,” did not mean that they always “elect him back”. They made a decision, to love God or not, even though he loved, and wanted them all to be his people. Matthew 21:42-44 speaks of Gods chosen people, (the Jews saying
“‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? Therefore, I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Infact we further see from God's word that God is NOT forceful. The Spirit of God is gentle.
Jesus calls himself Gentle: (Matthew 11:29)
“For I am Gentle and humble in heart.”
He does not force himself on us, but he waits for us to let him into our hearts.

So Can We Resist the Holy Spirit?! (Acts 7:51-53)
“‘You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him- You who have received the law that was put into effect through the angles but have not obeyed it.’”


4. Jesus died for the sins of only the "elect" and not for all-
This is a BIG Contradiction of the word of God, The Bible teaches us that Christ died for those that accept him and those that don't. It teaches us that Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

John 2:2
"He . . . is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

Salvation is by faith, (Because of Grace) but the Grace needed for Salvation is available to ALL!!!
1 Peter 3:18
"For Christ died for sins, once for ALL. The righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made alive by the Spirit."
Romans 5:6-11
“You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16
"For God so Loved the World, that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Notice the words "FOR ALL", & "THE WORLD" and "While we were still sinners". There is nothing to suggest that It is only for the "elect" few who accept him. He provided a way through his grace for the whole world while we didn't even recognize him. ("While were still sinners, when we were Gods enemies".) The idea, of God selecting people to be saved, is not all together, because it assumes that Christ would only love, and save, those that he has chosen to Love him back, however we know that God loves everyone, including his “enemies” (Romans 5:10) and his plan of salvation, was not limited to those who would love him only, it was meant for all! Why is it, that only those who accept it, and chose to believe, become saved? Simple, it is NOT because God’s plan is limited, but that we as humans limit God. Our sin, limits his presence in our life, and, our rejection of his presence, limits his eternal reconciliation. Gods’ grace is “sufficient” (2 Corinthians 12:9) to save all human beings, but we are the ones who reject God. We limit him, by not opening our hearts to him, and loving him, and accepting his gift.

God says that his grace, is a “gift” from God. As we know, a gift is something great that someone has freely offered us. We are never obliged to take a gift, even though it would be silly not to take it. A Gift, is something we can chose to take, or say ‘no thanks’ too. These verse acknowledge, that humans have Rejected God:

Acts 4:11, 1 Peter 2:4
Mark 9:12 Says: “It is written, ‘the Son of man must suffer much and be rejected.’”

Simple Question
Here is a simple Question, to those who believe that we were elected by God to hear his call,... WHEN where we “elected”? When God created us... or when we made the decision (-pardon the lack of a better term-) to accept Jesus in our Hearts? If we were elected on the day we were made, then a person can die without confessing that he has sinned, and still be covered with the blood of Christ. (Disproving 1John 1:9.) If it is the day that he makes the choice, then it is dependent upon the will of the person, as well as the sacrifice of God.

5. We were created totally corrupt with sin- it is our nature-
Did God create humans incapable of reaching out to him? Does our sin make it impossible for us to recognize our maker?! When we look at Genesis 3:8-10 we see that this is not the case.
"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
But the LORD God called to the man, 'Where are you?'
He answered, 'I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.'"

Here we see that even after Adam had sinned that he heard God's voice and he still recognized his maker. Although he hid, he was capable of responding to God on his own. The fact that we are sinners often clouds our judgment and makes us respond to God unfavorably (e.g. Adam hiding from God) but it does not prevent us from recognizing God or hearing his call and making decisions to it.

Another Serious problem that arises when people say we were created totally corrupt with sin, and that this is our nature, is that we are not recognizing the Way God created us. It contradicts the Bible. According to the Bible, When God created man, he made us in his image and saw that it was good. Once we sinned God kicked us out of the Garden of Eden and man has continued to sin since then and is incapable of getting away from sin. But It was not his Will that we should eat from the tree and become sinners, that was our decision. He has never created man "BAD" or taken away our free will to make choices.

 

[Cal]

Thanks for the black letters Bulldog, my eyes were going crazy!

1. It is God's will that Some People Perish-
According to the Bible God wants to see everyone come to him.
In 2 Peter 3:9 The Bible says:
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish , but everyone to come to repentance.”
Note the word EVERYONE.

Note the word YOU!

The "anyone and everyone" in the verse is anyone of "you" and everyone of "you." The "you" Peter is addressing are those whom he addressed his letters to, they are addressed: "to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Therefore God doesn't want any of you strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father to perish. And God want's everyone of you strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father to come to repentance.

Also note 1Timothy 2:1-4
"I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.
This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Here we see that it is a lie to say God has chosen people to go to hell. It would be a contradiction with: "God our savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

This is "all types of men", that is why Paul brings in kings and those in authority. These were very evil men who were persecuting the Church and the Christians deeply resented and hated them but Paul is simply teaching these Christians to pray for these men because God's elect also includes Kings and those in authority and does not "exclude" them. Therefore some of those persecutors, those Kings and authorities, may very well be the elect. Paul knew this lesson all to well.

To exclude them from prayers because of their position and nationality was a big mistake. God promised to bring His people from all stations of life and from all the different nations.

2. We are not sinners Because of Sin but we Sin because we are sinners-
Although it should make sense that we are sinners because we sin, there are still those who do not believe this. It is as foolish to believe that "we are not sinners because of sin" as it is to believe "people are not alcoholics because they drink alcohol". Of coarse people who alcoholics become that way because they drink alcohol. They do not drink alcohol because they are alcoholics but they are alcoholics because they drink alcohol. The other way around is to put things backwards! We do not sin because we are sinners, we are sinners because we have sinned. Adam and Eve were not always sinners, they were innocent at one time in the garden of Eden and walked with God until they sinned. Because they sinned they became Sinners and were kicked out of the Garden. Although it may not seem significant which order it is in, the order is important when interpreting the Bible. To put it backwards can change the whole meaning and distort what the bible really says about our nature and what makes us that way. To say that we are sinners not because we have sinned first implies God created creation corrupt- While we know that according to the Bible, everything created was good, until man chose to BECOME corrupt.

Adam and Eve had free will and they chose to sin. Afterwards all humanity lost their freedom to "not sin." Now we want to sin and we choose to sin seemingly with freedom, but Jesus Christ and the Apostles said we are really slaves to the devil and sin. Where is the freedom in this?

When Christ set's us free, then and only then are we free to choice whether to sin or not to sin, but only when He set's us free!

3. We cannot chose to accept Gods Grace, we cannot resist God-
There are many verses which show that God allows us free will to accept his Grace or resist him.
First about choosing- the calvanists believe we cannot choose- that God does the choosing we cannot resist it. Whey then would there be verses that talk about us choosing???

What verse? You mean the following verses addressed to the elect and church?

Joshua 24:15
"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, ... But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD ." He goes on to say some more talk about their CHOICE... in verses 20-22:
"'If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.'
But the people said to Joshua, 'No! We will serve the LORD.'
Then Joshua said, 'You are witnesses against yourselves that you have CHOSEN to serve the LORD.'"

Notice Joshua talking about choice.
Now here is God himself laying down CHOICE in Deut.20:19-20
"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

These were addresses to the elect of God, "the Church in the wilderness." Of course the elect can choose. Once God redeems the elect and set's them free they can certainly choose freely, but not until then.

Now another thing... if God was the one who created "faith" in us... and it wasn't something we chose to do, then why is Abrahams faith credited to him as righteousness???
"Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness." Romans 4:9. If believing and having faith is not OUR action but God making us believe how could it be righteousness credited to Abraham???

Because God is good!

He credit's us for Christ's righteousness too and what did we do to earn that? Christ was credited for our sins, and what did He do to deserve that?

1Peter 3:1-2 says:
“In the same way be submissive to your husbands so that , if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives when they see the purity and reverence of you lives.”
Why would the Bible write "they may be won over" if they do not have the ability to resist the Grace of God? We obviously see that "persuasion" may happen because of a persons individual choices.

Because God has ordained that the elect will be brought to Christ by the foolishness of preaching and the behavior of the saints. That is why Paul was so excited about his work. He knew the elect would come because God had ordained these methods to bring His elect to Christ.

God could have written it in the sky, but instead He chose to use us to bring in His people. And then He rewards us for our work.

Another interesting verse is Proverbs 22:6,
“Train up a Child in the way he should go and even when he is old he will not depart from it.”
If a Christian does not have a say in whether they want to accept or reject God- if there is no free will, then this verse would be implying that those who train their Child properly will be rewarded with the Salvation of their Children. (If their Children did not have a decision or choice to make because they cannot RESIST God.)
Obviously that is not what this verse means at all. It is telling us that training our Children in what is right has an influence over the decisions it will make as an adult.

The Scriptures teach that we can assume and expect children of parents of the faith to also be drawn by God to Christ. That is why the Israelites circumcised their children, not because it saved them but rather because they were heirs to the Promise as a reward to their parents for their faithfulness. Therefore these parents and we are responsible to bring our children up in the faith knowing and expecting God to do His great work on them.

Does God use FORCE?!
If God is all powerful would he impose his power on his chosen people so that they could NOT reject him? The Israelites (the Jews) were indeed God’s chosen people, but yet they still had the free will to reject God, and turn from him. Just because, “God elected them,” did not mean that they always “elect him back”. They made a decision, to love God or not, even though he loved, and wanted them all to be his people. Matthew 21:42-44 speaks of Gods chosen people, (the Jews saying “‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? Therefore, I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

Infact we further see from God's word that God is NOT forceful. The Spirit of God is gentle.
Jesus calls himself Gentle: (Matthew 11:29)
“For I am Gentle and humble in heart.”
He does not force himself on us, but he waits for us to let him into our hearts.

So Can We Resist the Holy Spirit?! (Acts 7:51-53)
“‘You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him- You who have received the law that was put into effect through the angles but have not obeyed it.’”

God doesn't force! He frees! Big difference.

If you open the doors of a prison, being the gentle, kind and merciful Governor that you are, and the prisoner runs out joyfully and runs back to live with his family, have you forced him out of prison and into this "new life?"

As far as some Isrealites rejecting God, the Holy Spirit plainly teaches in the Scriptures:

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ROM 9:6-11.

Therefore the elect Israelites did not reject Him, but the nonelect did!

 

[Cal]

4. Jesus died for the sins of only the "elect" and not for all-
This is a BIG Contradiction of the word of God, The Bible teaches us that Christ died for those that accept him and those that don't. It teaches us that Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

John 2:2
"He . . . is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."

Salvation is by faith, (Because of Grace) but the Grace needed for Salvation is available to ALL!!!

No it is not. The Scriptures never teach this, as a matter of fact Christ teaches the exact opposite:


"For many are called, but few are chosen."--Jesus Christ


"But there are some of you who do not believe. For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." -- Jesus Christ (JOH 6:64-65)


He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. --Jesus Christ (MAT 13:11)

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:--Jesus Christ (MAR 4:11)

The verse quoted 1 John 2:2 only means that God's elect will come from all nations throughout the entire world. It could never mean that He propitiated for every single person's sins, because if He did every single person's sins would be paid for and all would go to heaven.


John was an apostle to the Jews. He is writing to the Jews teaching them that Christ died for His elect which will come from every tribe, nation and tounge throughout the entire world, not just the Jewish nation.

1 Peter 3:18
"For Christ died for sins, once for ALL. The righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body, but made alive by the Spirit."

1PE 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Remember who Peter is writing to?

"To the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God."

Therefore us must mean Peter and "the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God."

Therefore, you can replace us with "the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, and Peter, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God."

So it would be very appropriate and very accurate to translate Peter's intention in this letter to read just like this: 1PE 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us, "the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, and Peter, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God," to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

This of course completly supports calvinism.

To read this verse that Christ died for every person on Earth is to do much damage to Peter's obvious intention.

Romans 5:6-11
“You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

These verses support calvinism.

The "ungodly, us, sinners, we, and enemies" in these verses are Paul and the Christians in Rome to whom his letter is addressed. If Paul was writing an open letter to planet Earth I'm sure he would have changed the text a smidgen, don't you?

John 3:16
"For God so Loved the World, that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Notice the words "FOR ALL", & "THE WORLD" and "While we were still sinners". There is nothing to suggest that It is only for the "elect" few who accept him. He provided a way through his grace for the whole world while we didn't even recognize him. ("While were still sinners, when we were Gods enemies".) The idea, of God selecting people to be saved, is not all together, because it assumes that Christ would only love, and save, those that he has chosen to Love him back, however we know that God loves everyone, including his “enemies” (Romans 5:10) and his plan of salvation, was not limited to those who would love him only, it was meant for all! Why is it, that only those who accept it, and chose to believe, become saved? Simple, it is NOT because God’s plan is limited, but that we as humans limit God. Our sin, limits his presence in our life, and, our rejection of his presence, limits his eternal reconciliation. Gods’ grace is “sufficient” (2 Corinthians 12:9) to save all human beings, but we are the ones who reject God. We limit him, by not opening our hearts to him, and loving him, and accepting his gift.

Notice whom the letters in Romans, 1John and Peter are being addressed to, "The Elect."

The "all's" are either the Elect or all types depending on what context all is being used. The "world" is all the tribes, people's, tounges and nations, and God does love them, that is why He is drawing some from each to eventually "permeate the whole loaf" and save entire nations, tribes and tounges.

And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. LUK 13:20-21

God says that his grace, is a “gift” from God. As we know, a gift is something great that someone has freely offered us. We are never obliged to take a gift, even though it would be silly not to take it. A Gift, is something we can chose to take, or say ‘no thanks’ too. These verse acknowledge, that humans have Rejected God:

Acts 4:11, 1 Peter 2:4
Mark 9:12 Says: “It is written, ‘the Son of man must suffer much and be rejected.’”

Simple Question
Here is a simple Question, to those who believe that we were elected by God to hear his call,... WHEN where we “elected”? When God created us... or when we made the decision (-pardon the lack of a better term-) to accept Jesus in our Hearts? If we were elected on the day we were made, then a person can die without confessing that he has sinned, and still be covered with the blood of Christ. (Disproving 1John 1:9.) If it is the day that he makes the choice, then it is dependent upon the will of the person, as well as the sacrifice of God.

Simple Answer
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: EPH 1:4

Why would you want to refute this plain teaching?

5. We were created totally corrupt with sin- it is our nature-
Did God create humans incapable of reaching out to him? Does our sin make it impossible for us to recognize our maker?! When we look at Genesis 3:8-10 we see that this is not the case.
"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
But the LORD God called to the man, 'Where are you?'
He answered, 'I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.'"

Here we see that even after Adam had sinned that he heard God's voice and he still recognized his maker. Although he hid, he was capable of responding to God on his own. The fact that we are sinners often clouds our judgment and makes us respond to God unfavorably (e.g. Adam hiding from God) but it does not prevent us from recognizing God or hearing his call and making decisions to it.

God was coming to judge Adam and Eve. Adam responded to God because God made Himself known to them for judgment. The demons responded to Christ when He cast them out.

This is not a "reaching out" or desire for God. They hid from God and didn't want God to find them. God searched them out!

The Scriptures teach that "none seek after God," none! They don't seek Him because they don't want to, they are enslaved to their sin and the devil.

...if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2TI 2:25-26

Another Serious problem that arises when people say we were created totally corrupt with sin, and that this is our nature, is that we are not recognizing the Way God created us. It contradicts the Bible. According to the Bible, When God created man, he made us in his image and saw that it was good. Once we sinned God kicked us out of the Garden of Eden and man has continued to sin since then and is incapable of getting away from sin. But It was not his Will that we should eat from the tree and become sinners, that was our decision. He has never created man "BAD" or taken away our free will to make choices.

Right, we were created without sin. But when we sinned we enslaved ourselves and our children to sin and the devil. Our only freedom is Christ and He alone can set us free now!

JOH 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[Beoga]

thankyou very very much

 

[Cal]

thankyou very very much

My pleasure!

 

[theseed]

If I may offer some short and simple explanations that might help.

It is true that we don't chose God, but he choses us. However, when he choses us, he creates within us a clean heart and revives our Spirit. Then in turn, we desire to seek God. The unregenerate or degenerate does not.

I disagree with most Calvinists on the meaning of atonement. Atonment just means that sin is pay for.

ATONEMENT IS NOT SALVAtION

Atonement is simply payment for sins. Christ did pay for the sins of the whole world. This is a coupon that must be accepted to be applied. But because God does not regenerate everbody, not everbody believes.

Although God elects us to grace, he never revlieves us of our obligation to believe. We must believe inorder to be saved. Otherwise we will perish.

But no one comes unless they are drawn (John 6.37, 44).

Does this go aganist evangelism? No because God does not turn anyone way.

God is not made weak by having Christ atone for all sin of every person, because he requires that we also glorify him inorder to be saved, by bending our knee and confessing he is Lord to his glory. (Rom. 10.9-17; Phil. 2).

 

[Bro. Gabriel]

Wow, being only a few months withdrawn from these types of teachings and interpretations of the Scripture, I already find it hard to believe people could mis-read so much of the Bible and take so many things out of context.

Limited Atonement is about the fact that Christ's Atonement is effective and sufficient for God's Elect. "L.A." is a misleading word, but we must make it spell TULIP, mustn't we? I suggest reading "Grace Unknown" by Sproul.. his wording for the 5 points of salvation are much easier to grasp and understand!

 

[rnmomof7]

i am getting into a debate with someone on another site about predistination/calvinism and she posted this and I wasn't sure how to respond since i am kind of new to the reformed theology and wanted to make sure that i represented the beliefs correctly. so how would you respond to this:

Some more thoughts here to throw out things I wanna adress because I don't believe God sticks us in a "matrix" game.

I'm going to address the following points that I find unbiblical in the Calvinist teachings....

1.It is Gods will that Some people perish
2.We are not sinners Because of Sin but we Sin because we are sinners
3.We cannot chose to accept Gods Grace, we cannot resist God
4.Jesus died for the sins of only the "elect" and not for all
5.We were created totally corrupt with sin- it is our nature

--------------------------

1. It is God's will that Some People Perish-
According to the Bible God wants to see everyone come to him.
In 2 Peter 3:9 The Bible says:
“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish , but everyone to come to repentance.”
Note the word EVERYONE.

One of the most misused texts in the NT

I will first say to you that don't you think if it was the will of God that all be saved they would be?


Now onto 2 Peter

2 peter


Who was the letter sent to? Who was the audience?



2Pe 3:1** This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in [both] which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance

The beloved are the saved

What is it's topic?

It is a teaching to the church on the end times.

It is not a salvation teaching it is an end time teaching

What is the theme?

Judgment and destruction of the wicked

The passage in question begins with the remembrance of the first judgment on the world.


The Flood


** 2Pe 3:5** For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

** * 2Pe 3:6** Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:



Here he is speaking of the judgment men by the flood.


The judgment theme continues ;



2Pe 3:7** But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Now he speaks of the type of judgment to come. no longer from rain and flood, but from fire.

Now again Peter restates who these words stating who they are written to, the saved brethren


2Pe 3:8* * But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


It is a teaching for the elect . It is written TO THE BRETHREN NOT THE UNSAVED


Pe 3:9** The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Now in the text in question who is He long suffering toward? He says it clearly ..it is the audience that he is addressing ..The brethren..the elect..US-WARD
.God is long suffering . He will not rain down the punishment until all the elect are saved.


If we were to read the Arminian reading into the text the Lord could never return because there will never be a day when the entire creation of men will be saved.
So Christ could never come..He would be stuck in heaven waiting for men to make up their mind.

*Back to a judgment text :

* 2Pe 3:10** But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Referring back to 3:6 &7


The reading of the text as a salvation teaching or promise in the center of a text in the center of an end time teaching breaks the flow and meaning of a text that tells how God intends to judge the reprobates in the last days .

Your reading gives this text an impossible rendering . Because it would be saying the judgment He has just taught could never occur ,because God is long suffering to ALL men That makes is an impossible rendering of the text .
__________________

 

[rnmomof7]

If I may offer some short and simple explanations that might help.

It is true that we don't chose God, but he choses us. However, when he choses us, he creates within us a clean heart and revives our Spirit. Then in turn, we desire to seek God. The unregenerate or degenerate does not.

I disagree with most Calvinists on the meaning of atonement. Atonment just means that sin is pay for.

ATONEMENT IS NOT SALVAtION

Atonement is simply payment for sins. Christ did pay for the sins of the whole world. This is a coupon that must be accepted to be applied. But because God does not regenerate everbody, not everbody believes.

Although God elects us to grace, he never revlieves us of our obligation to believe. We must believe inorder to be saved. Otherwise we will perish.

But no one comes unless they are drawn (John 6.37, 44).

Does this go aganist evangelism? No because God does not turn anyone way.

God is not made weak by having Christ atone for all sin of every person, because he requires that we also glorify him inorder to be saved, by bending our knee and confessing he is Lord to his glory. (Rom. 10.9-17; Phil. 2).

Please read the word.
AT ONE MENT .

It refers to our reconciliation to God based on the work of Christ.

We are again at one with Him


* Salvation from the Penalty of Sin -- Justification.
* Salvation from the Power of Sin -- Sanctification
* Salvation from the Presence of Sin -- Glorification.



As for the belief that Christ died for all the world, that presents a problem because it suggests that God is demanding double payment for the sins of the reprobates , they were paid for once and now God demands they pay again???


As a Calvinist I would say that the blood of Christ was sufficient for all , but efficient only to the elect .

 

[theseed]

As for the belief that Christ died for all the world, that presents a problem because it suggests that God is demanding double payment for the sins of the reprobates , they were paid for once and now God demands they pay again???

The atonement is a get out of jail free card. It is a coupon that must be applied. If it is not then you must pay out of pocket.

It refers to our reconciliation to God based on the work of Christ.

Yes, we are reconciled to God. Everyone is, they just have to take the offer. Have you not read that God holds us responsible for refusing his Son?

Now, how can he do that, if he does not offer him?

Atonement is payment for sin, not salvation. God can't grant us Salvation unless we are justified, and we can't be justified unless we believe, and our faith is meaningless unless its based on the grace offered on the cross.

Atonement is not salvation. But only the basis for Salvation (grace). The method of salvation is faith, which comes from God. God requires faith as the condition by which we are justified. God gets the glory now, because he requires faith--and requires us to call him Lord (Phil 2, Romans 10).

So, God the Father is not .

Salvation is also from death and hell which you left out as well.

SO ATONEMENT IS THE BASIS FOR SALVATION, BUT NOT SALVATION.

atonement
\A*tone"ment\, n. 1. (Literally, a setting at one.) Reconciliation; restoration of friendly relations; agreement; concord. [Archaic]

By whom we have now received the atonement. --Rom. v. 11.

He desires to make atonement Betwixt the Duke of Gloucester and your brothers. --Shak.

2. Satisfaction or reparation made by giving an equivalent for an injury, or by doing of suffering that which will be received in satisfaction for an offense or injury; expiation; amends; -- with for. Specifically, in theology: The expiation of sin made by the obedience, personal suffering, and death of Christ.

When a man has been guilty of any vice, the best atonement be can make for it is, to warn others. --Spectator.

The Phocians behaved with, so much gallantry, that they were thought to have made a sufficient atonement for their former offense. --Potter.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

 

[theseed]

Wow, being only a few months withdrawn from these types of teachings and interpretations of the Scripture, I already find it hard to believe people could mis-read so much of the Bible and take so many things out of context.

Limited Atonement is about the fact that Christ's Atonement is effective and sufficient for God's Elect. "L.A." is a misleading word, but we must make it spell TULIP, mustn't we? I suggest reading "Grace Unknown" by Sproul.. his wording for the 5 points of salvation are much easier to grasp and understand!

I have the bible and a dictionary, I know my interpretation is correct.

 

[Cal]

If I may offer some short and simple explanations that might help.

It is true that we don't chose God, but he choses us. However, when he choses us, he creates within us a clean heart and revives our Spirit. Then in turn, we desire to seek God. The unregenerate or degenerate does not.

I disagree with most Calvinists on the meaning of atonement. Atonment just means that sin is pay for.

ATONEMENT IS NOT SALVAtION

Atonement is simply payment for sins. Christ did pay for the sins of the whole world. This is a coupon that must be accepted to be applied. But because God does not regenerate everbody, not everbody believes.

Although God elects us to grace, he never revlieves us of our obligation to believe. We must believe inorder to be saved. Otherwise we will perish.

But no one comes unless they are drawn (John 6.37, 44).

Does this go aganist evangelism? No because God does not turn anyone way.

God is not made weak by having Christ atone for all sin of every person, because he requires that we also glorify him inorder to be saved, by bending our knee and confessing he is Lord to his glory. (Rom. 10.9-17; Phil. 2).

But our faith is not from ourselves it is a gift of God as well, so we can't even give Him that.

EPH 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

GAL 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

2TH 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

1TI 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

JAM 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

2PE 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, ¶ To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

PHI 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

ACT 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

JOH 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

MAT 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

 

[theseed]

But our faith is not from ourselves it is a gift of God as well, so we can't even give Him that.

Correct.

 

[Gabriel]

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