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Help! Historical Accounts of Jesus

TScott

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laumelilu said:
Hey Guys...

Need to know some guidance on where to look. I need to find historical sources and documents showing Jesus's life, death and ressurection from OUTSIDE the Christian Institution.

Can someone please let me know where to look? where to start??

L.
Outside of biblical writings there are no contemporary written accounts of Jesus. The mentions in Josephus are neither contemporary nor credible, although the mention of "James the brother of Jesus" is somewhat intriguing.

Should we be surprised by this?
I'm not. Think about it for a minute. Jesus' ministry took place in the backwoods of 1st century Judaea, in Galillee. His followers, at the most probably numbering only in the hundreds, were mostly of the peasant class and were probably, for the most part illiterate. According to the gospels everything that Jesus did, his preaching, everything was by word of mouth. This was typical for the time. Writing was a very expensive proposition. Writing materials were rare and expensive. There was no printing. If anything was written down there would most likely have been no copies. The main mode of communication back then was word-of-mouth. Jesus' ministry was also short lived and probably only lasted about three years. The Gospels say he only went to Jerusalem once, at the end. As far as the Romans were concerned he was small time. They would have had no reason to record his passing other than possibly a mark in a ledger, which would probably not have survived antiquity.
In my opinion, the best proof of a historical Jesus is in the Gospels themselves. That proof would be the parables. These small, ingenious stories spoken by Jesus would have been repeated by word of mouth from one person to the next, from one generation to the next. They would have been, therefore, well known by all of the followers of the Early Church, even before the Gospels were written. These parables would have had to have been included and they would have had to have been included as they had been passed down or the followers of the Early Church would not have accepted the Gospels. Therefore, I believe that the best proof for an Historical Jesus are the parables.
 
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Moros

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Here is a list i came up with.



Cornelius Tacitus
Christus: Annals 15.44.2-8
But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

Annals, book XV
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberious at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths, Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

Flavius Josephus
James, the Brother of Jesus: Antiquities 20.9.1
So he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned...

Jesus, Wise Man and Teacher: Antiquities 18.3.3
Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, (if it be lawful to call him a man,) for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. (He was the Christ;) and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, (for he appeared to them alive again the third day,) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day.

A Baptism of Purification: Antiquities 18.5.2 116-119
Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and was a very just punishment for what he did against John called the baptist [the dipper]. For Herod had him killed, although he was a good man and had urged the Jews to exert themselves to virtue, both as to justice toward one another and reverence towards God, and having done so join together in washing. For immersion in water, it was clear to him, could not be used for the forgiveness of sins, but as a sanctification of the body, and only if the soul was already thoroughly purified by right actions. And when others massed about him, for they were very greatly moved by his words, Herod, who feared that such strong influence over the people might carry to a revolt -- for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise -- believed it much better to move now than later have it raise a rebellion and engage him in actions he would regret.
And so John, out of Herod's suspiciousness, was sent in chains to Machaerus, the fort previously mentioned, and there put to death; but it was the opinion of the Jews that out of retribution for John God willed the destruction of the army so as to afflict Herod.

Suetonius
Lives of the Caesars - Claudius, sec. 25
As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.

Lives of the Caesars - Nero, sec. 26
Punishment was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition.
Galen
De pulsuum differentiis, ii & iii
One might more easily teach novelties to the followers of Moses and Christ than to the physicians and philosophers who cling fast to their schools.

. . . in order that one should not at the very beginning, as if one had come into the school of Moses and Christ, hear talk of undemonstrated laws, and that where it is least appropriate

If I had in mind people who taught their pupils in the same way as the followers of Hoses and Christ teach theirs--for they order them to accept everything on faith--I should not have given you a definition
Pliny the Younger
Letters 10.96-97: Pliny to the Emperor Trajan
It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.
Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.
Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.
They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.
I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.

Julius Africanus
The Extant Writings of Julius Africanus 18
This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as it appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse occur when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun?
Phlegon records that in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth — manifestly that one of which we speak.
 
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Sephania

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The Gospels say he only went to Jerusalem once, at the end.

For clarification's sake you must be talking of his ministry time only? Elsewise it states in Luke that his family went up to Jerusalem every Passover.

Now regarding the ministry and him only going up to Jerusalem once, at the end, which you must mean Passover time, that is not true as well.

Immediately after he was baptisted by his cousin he went into the wildernes for his purification and the devil took him to Jerusalem, to the temple to be exact. He visited Jerusalem ( where the apostles were hiding out) during the time he spent here after the resurrection.

According to the gospel of John he was there on a previous passover and then returned to the Galilee, where the Galileans believed on him because of what they had seen him do in Jerusalem. He is also seen in John 6 as in Jerusalem attending another feast where he heals the man by the pool of Bethsaida. In Chapter 10 he is there for Hannucha, which is verified by the statement that it was winter ( Passover is in the spring).

If he did not go to Jerusalem at least three times every year he would not be the sinless, holy son of man and son of God as each Jewish man was to present himself ( 20yrs and over) before the Lord in Jerusalem at the temple during the feasts of Passover, and weeks and then in the fall for the feasts of tabernacles.
 
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TScott

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Zayit said:
For clarification's sake you must be talking of his ministry time only? Elsewise it states in Luke that his family went up to Jerusalem every Passover.

Now regarding the ministry and him only going up to Jerusalem once, at the end, which you must mean Passover time, that is not true as well.

Immediately after he was baptisted by his cousin he went into the wildernes for his purification and the devil took him to Jerusalem, to the temple to be exact. He visited Jerusalem ( where the apostles were hiding out) during the time he spent here after the resurrection.

According to the gospel of John he was there on a previous passover and then returned to the Galilee, where the Galileans believed on him because of what they had seen him do in Jerusalem. He is also seen in John 6 as in Jerusalem attending another feast where he heals the man by the pool of Bethsaida. In Chapter 10 he is there for Hannucha, which is verified by the statement that it was winter ( Passover is in the spring).

If he did not go to Jerusalem at least three times every year he would not be the sinless, holy son of man and son of God as each Jewish man was to present himself ( 20yrs and over) before the Lord in Jerusalem at the temple during the feasts of Passover, and weeks and then in the fall for the feasts of tabernacles.
Yes, you are correct in that John has him going to Jerusalem more, although if I remeber correctly I think he alludes to at least one of the trips being made in secret. The Synoptic Gospels, on the other hand only have him in Jerusalem once during the time of his ministry. (I confess I have a habit of relying on the Synoptics more for historical referrence than John.) Regardless, the point still stands that a majority of his ministry took place out of the mainstream and therefore it should not be surprising that there are no contemporary writings that mention him.
 
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Sephania

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I think that the eyewitness was relied upon to spread the word more than written documentation. In that time the actual telling of a visual experience was the way to communicate with the majority since many could not even read and so that is why I believe that Jesus exhorted his followers to spread the Good news by telling what they experienced and eye witnessed. There are records I believe of the martyrdom of many believers, and people just don't allow themselves to be tortured in the most horrendous ways possible without truly having justification for their beliefs. All the disciples but one were martyred ( which comes from the Greek word, martur which means literally, witness) for their beliefs which where from what they had witnessed and lived.

Don't you agree?
 
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tcampen

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Zayit said:
I think that the eyewitness was relied upon to spread the word more than written documentation. In that time the actual telling of a visual experience was the way to communicate with the majority since many could not even read and so that is why I believe that Jesus exhorted his followers to spread the Good news by telling what they experienced and eye witnessed. There are records I believe of the martyrdom of many believers, and people just don't allow themselves to be tortured in the most horrendous ways possible without truly having justification for their beliefs. All the disciples but one were martyred ( which comes from the Greek word, martur which means literally, witness) for their beliefs which where from what they had witnessed and lived.

Don't you agree?
People have been willing to die horrendous deaths throughout history, and for beliefs that are anything but supernatural. In fact, people have been and are willing to die for ideals alone. That the early followers were martyred is not evidence of anything but strong beliefs, and all the world's religions have such examples.
 
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Sephania

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Yes, but these were Jews going against the beliefs of the normal Judaism, that in itself was dangerous, that is why they were in hiding after the crusifixtion, not from the Romans but the Sanhedrin, the leading authority in Jerusalem.

Also how many of these people throughout history, watched their leader die for commiting no crime and then continue themselves spreading the word of just such punishment and having so many others believe even knowing that they to could die in the same manner or worst?
 
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phaedrus

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I have something that speaks to the historical record of Jesus Christ's life, death and resurrection. Its a little lengthy but its by one of the greatest legal minds in American history and thats no exageration:

"The evidence for our Lord's life and death and resurrection may be, and often has been shown to be satisfactory; it is good according to the common rules for distinguishing good evidence from bad. Thousands and tens of thousands of persons have gone through it piece by piece, as carefully as every judge summing up on a most important cause. I have myself done it many times over, not to persuade others but to satisfy myself. I have been used for many years to study the histories of evidence of those who have written about them. and I know of no one fact in the hiostoris of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, that the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead." (Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice)

This man wrote, 'A Treatise on the Law of Evidence', published in 1842, it is considered the greatest single authority on evidence in the entire literature of legal procedure.

The sad fact is that modern skeptics put an excessive burden of proof on the Bible. Whether or not you accept the testimony of the NT with regards to Jesus Christ on a personal level there are definatly tangible proofs that the record is indeed accurate:

"Sir Willian Ramsay is regarded as one of the greatest archaeologists ever to have lived. He was a student in the German historical school of the mid-19th century. He was firmly convinced of this belief. In his research to make a popographical study of Asia Minor, he was compelled to consider the writings of Luke. As a result he was forced to do a complete reversal of his beliefs due to the overwhelming evidence uncovered in his research. He spoke of this when he said: 'I may fairly claim to have entered on this investigation without prejudice in favor of the conclusion which I shall now seek to justify to the reader. On the contrary, I began with a mind unfavourable to it. For the ingenuity and apparent completeness of the Tubingen theory had at one time quite convinced me. It did not then lie in my line of life to investigate the subject munutely; but more recently I found myself brought into contact with the Book of Acts as an authority for the topography, antiquities and society of Asia Minor. It was gradually borne upon me that in various details the narrative showed marvelous truth. In fact, beginning with a fixed idea that the work was essentially a second century composition, and never relying on its evidence as trustworthy for first century conditions, I gradually came to find it a useful ally in some obscure and difficult investigations." (St. Paul the Traveler and the Roman Citizen, Ramsey; adapted from Blaiklock, The Acts of the Apostles, The Archaelolgy of the New Testamnet)

There is no proof that will satisfy the prejudice of the skeptic but the discerning mind must concede one important point, The NT is firmly rooted and grounded in tangible history.
 
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Tangata

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Well, there are 34 gospels, 4 of which are included in the Bible. I don't suppose you could use those? Flavius Josephus' writings like someone else said were probably edited by early Christians. Though most scholars believe that it was just edited, not completely added in. Like the part about calling him "the Christ." lol, anyway everyone else has taken all the good ones ;-)
 
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crystalpc

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Zayit said:
As well as:


Tacitus
Suetonius
Julius Africanus
Origen
Pliny the Younger

mentions Jesus by name or his followers.
These were all great sources. Evidence lies in another source, the men who followed him, who knew him first hand and died for their experiences rather than deny him.
 
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Sephania

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Yes, that was who I was referring to when I wrote this:

Also how many of these people throughout history, watched their leader die for commiting no crime and then continue themselves spreading the word of just such punishment and having so many others believe even knowing that they to could die in the same manner or worst?
But then some would argue that many in other religions have done the same thing.:(


I also believe that there maybe some American Indian sources ( but handed down by word of mouth and not written) about a visitation by the son of the Great Spirit. Besides the mormon account that is.
 
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pmarquette

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laumelilu said:
Hey Guys...

Need to know some guidance on where to look. I need to find historical sources and documents showing Jesus's life, death and ressurection from OUTSIDE the Christian Institution.

Can someone please let me know where to look? where to start??

L.
pick up / read a book by Og Mandino , called the Christ commission
found at most book stores [ chapter one , barnes and noble ]
 
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