Help from LDS
- Thread starter JeffreyLloyd
- Start date
- Status
marvmax
interested in most things religious
JeffreyLloyd;
I would have just a few small quibbles with what you have written, but over all I think it is very fair to our perspective.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
(These will be from Sec 76 of the D&C)
103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
These are the kind of people that most christians think are going to be in hell, and in fact it says of the Telestial Kingdom
83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
So the Telestial Kingdom is actually our Hell.
So what then is Outer Darkness? Well it is that special place reserved for, as is shown in 83 above, "Those who deny the Holy Spirit." Well what does that mean? You'll get varying opinions on it but I like two statements. One from the scriptures saying
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
As I understand this, to go to outer darkness, you would have to know, not through faith only, that Christ was indeed God, and be willing to join with the devil in assenting to his death, not as part of Gods devine plan to save mankind, but standing with the devil in trying to destroy God.
That takes a special kind of evil that only a few people can attain to. Joseph Smith said that you must be standing in the daylight and be willing to say it is dark to be cast into outer darkness.
A suggestion, if you want one, to try and catch this better would be.
Heaven - The Mormon Church teaches that after the Final Judgment most people will be assigned to a certain kingdom: One of three places: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, or the telestial kingdom (GP Ch. 46)
Your description of hell is quite good but with the emphasis on most people going to a Kingdom of Glory it becomes even better.
I would have just a few small quibbles with what you have written, but over all I think it is very fair to our perspective.
We actually say "Obedience...to the Gospel". We believe that many more people will be in heaven than Mormons, and Christians for that matter, but, in my personal feelings it will be people who have led exemplary lives according to the teachings that they subscribe to. For example, just by watching how an observant budhist and christian lived their lives, without seeing how or who they worshipped, you would have a hard time telling them apart. For us part of the Gospel includes keeping Christs commandments, an important part, which is what the Budhist above would be doing. This is something Paul alluded to, I believe in Rom 2:14JeffreyLloyd said:
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
This is right as far as it goes, but I don't think that it catches the essence of the Mormon teachings. Most people will go to a "Kingdom of Glory" only a handfull will go to "Outer Darkness". In the discription of the lowest "Kingdom of Glory", or the Telestial Kingdom, those who go there areJeffreyLloyd[font=Arial said:
(These will be from Sec 76 of the D&C)
103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
These are the kind of people that most christians think are going to be in hell, and in fact it says of the Telestial Kingdom
83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
So the Telestial Kingdom is actually our Hell.
So what then is Outer Darkness? Well it is that special place reserved for, as is shown in 83 above, "Those who deny the Holy Spirit." Well what does that mean? You'll get varying opinions on it but I like two statements. One from the scriptures saying
35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
As I understand this, to go to outer darkness, you would have to know, not through faith only, that Christ was indeed God, and be willing to join with the devil in assenting to his death, not as part of Gods devine plan to save mankind, but standing with the devil in trying to destroy God.
That takes a special kind of evil that only a few people can attain to. Joseph Smith said that you must be standing in the daylight and be willing to say it is dark to be cast into outer darkness.
A suggestion, if you want one, to try and catch this better would be.
Heaven - The Mormon Church teaches that after the Final Judgment most people will be assigned to a certain kingdom: One of three places: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, or the telestial kingdom (GP Ch. 46)
Your description of hell is quite good but with the emphasis on most people going to a Kingdom of Glory it becomes even better.
Actually Purgatory is a Catholic doctrine, Mormons say that after death you go to "Spirit Prison" or "Paradise", you don't have to be a Mormon to go to "Paradise" either because Christ told the theif on the cross that he would be with him in paradise. However, I have used purgatory to explain what spirit prison is. I don't know that Catholics have a comparable doctrine to our paradise.JeffreyLloyd said:
You should probably point out that Mormons believe that you must "reach the age of accountability", which is 8 years old, to be baptized. As I understand it some religious traditions practise immersion baptism of infants.JeffreyLloyd said:
Upvote
0
marvmax
interested in most things religious
Now that I've nitpicked what you wrote so well let me try with the Virgin Mary.
Here's what the Book of Mormon says.
1 Nep 11
14 ...Nephi, what beholdest thou?
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
This means that Mary was the most Beautiful and choice spirit of all of Gods female spirit children. She holds a choice place among all of Gods children. Jesus loved and cared for her his entire life, as is seen by the Feast at Cana, and worrying about her well being on the cross.
We do not believe she remained a virgin though.
Here's what the Book of Mormon says.
1 Nep 11
14 ...Nephi, what beholdest thou?
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
This means that Mary was the most Beautiful and choice spirit of all of Gods female spirit children. She holds a choice place among all of Gods children. Jesus loved and cared for her his entire life, as is seen by the Feast at Cana, and worrying about her well being on the cross.
We do not believe she remained a virgin though.
Upvote
0
Virgin Mary: In LDS thought Mary is considered special as the chosen vessel and Mother of God. She does not hold the status of coredemptrix nor is she considered beyond the realm of sin.
Holy Communion: LDS refer to the Sacrament as the typical Sabbath Day ritual observance of the Baptismal Covenant one takes upon themselves. This is performed under Priesthood authority: the material used is not given special significance.
Comments on other Topics:
Holy Trinity: I would change the explanation to: LDS believe in a Godhead composed of three glorified personages united in purpose.
Sacred Scripture: I would add: LDS Church does not have a closed canon and anticipates further revelation and holy writ to come forward. You may want to indicate the Bible refers to the Old and New Testaments but does not include the Apocrypha.
Heaven and Hell are problematic. This will depend on how you define the two terms. For example: Heaven can refer to the state of exhalation: exclusive to those who fully partake of the Divine Nature (2 Pet 1:3-4). It could also refer the saved condition in which case it includes all the respective Kingdoms of Glory: Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial (D&C 76) Hell could refer to Gehenna, Sheol and Tarterus: see Swart's comments. It could also refer to any damned state. It could also be used to mark Outer Darkness which is not a Kingdom of Glory.
Purgatory: There is no Purgatory in LDS thought. There is a Spirit World that divides mortality from one's final condition. Swart's comments are apropos.
Satan: I would change this to: Satan is considered an individual being or disembodied spirit who was cast out of God's presence due to rebellion. (if you want to add something more about Satan's connection to Deity or the nature of the rebellion you could add something like: the rebellion was a rejection of the Plan of Happiness or Salvation. This Plan was for the progression of God's children. Satan and the third of the Host of Heaven that followed him are also considered the spiritual children of Deity.
Great Apostasy: I would write: This is considered the loss of Priesthood authority, or the authority to act in the name of God, that occurred after the death of the Apostles.
Baptism: I would add something akin to Swart's comments about performed under Priesthood Authority.
Each of the above could be greatly expanded but I went for brevity. One of the difficulties is that several of your topics are a comparative from Catholic to Mormon so Heaven, Hell and Purgatory for example come off as more strained in the explanation. I could change the explanations to better reflect the Catholic to Mormon comparative stances to something more akin to the Vigrin Mary and Holy Communion explanations if you like. It depends on the overall tenor you want to convey.
I would also change general references from The Mormon Church to The LDS Church as it sounds more formal. I would avoid pronouns like "they think" and go instead for LDS believe.
I agree with Swart, I think in general your explanations are a good effort.
Holy Communion: LDS refer to the Sacrament as the typical Sabbath Day ritual observance of the Baptismal Covenant one takes upon themselves. This is performed under Priesthood authority: the material used is not given special significance.
Comments on other Topics:
Holy Trinity: I would change the explanation to: LDS believe in a Godhead composed of three glorified personages united in purpose.
Sacred Scripture: I would add: LDS Church does not have a closed canon and anticipates further revelation and holy writ to come forward. You may want to indicate the Bible refers to the Old and New Testaments but does not include the Apocrypha.
Heaven and Hell are problematic. This will depend on how you define the two terms. For example: Heaven can refer to the state of exhalation: exclusive to those who fully partake of the Divine Nature (2 Pet 1:3-4). It could also refer the saved condition in which case it includes all the respective Kingdoms of Glory: Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial (D&C 76) Hell could refer to Gehenna, Sheol and Tarterus: see Swart's comments. It could also refer to any damned state. It could also be used to mark Outer Darkness which is not a Kingdom of Glory.
Purgatory: There is no Purgatory in LDS thought. There is a Spirit World that divides mortality from one's final condition. Swart's comments are apropos.
Satan: I would change this to: Satan is considered an individual being or disembodied spirit who was cast out of God's presence due to rebellion. (if you want to add something more about Satan's connection to Deity or the nature of the rebellion you could add something like: the rebellion was a rejection of the Plan of Happiness or Salvation. This Plan was for the progression of God's children. Satan and the third of the Host of Heaven that followed him are also considered the spiritual children of Deity.
Great Apostasy: I would write: This is considered the loss of Priesthood authority, or the authority to act in the name of God, that occurred after the death of the Apostles.
Baptism: I would add something akin to Swart's comments about performed under Priesthood Authority.
Each of the above could be greatly expanded but I went for brevity. One of the difficulties is that several of your topics are a comparative from Catholic to Mormon so Heaven, Hell and Purgatory for example come off as more strained in the explanation. I could change the explanations to better reflect the Catholic to Mormon comparative stances to something more akin to the Vigrin Mary and Holy Communion explanations if you like. It depends on the overall tenor you want to convey.
I would also change general references from The Mormon Church to The LDS Church as it sounds more formal. I would avoid pronouns like "they think" and go instead for LDS believe.
I agree with Swart, I think in general your explanations are a good effort.
Upvote
0
Swart
ÜberChristian
- Mar 22, 2004
- 6,527
- 204
- 57
- Faith
- Mormon
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- AU-Greens
marvmax said:
I disagree with you on this point Marvmax. The scriptures do not say that the TlK is hell. Those that suffer the condition of hell during the millenium in the spirit prison will be resurrected to the TlK. They are "thrust down down to hell" when they die and remain there until the final judgement.
The TlK is not hell.
Upvote
0
marvmax
interested in most things religious
Swart said:
Well I'm not dogmatically committed to calling the Telestial Kingdom hell. I agree with Orontes that the concept is somewhat problematic and depends on what is meant by "Hell".
Could we agree in saying that those who deserve to "go to hell", go to the Telestial Kingdom?
Upvote
0
A
aftrumble
Guest
JeffreyLloyd said:
Very comprehensive. Good job. The only thing that I might disagree with is "God is an exalted man". Just wording on my part-I don't understand enough to say much, just that official doctrine doesn't explain too much about it. Unofficial doctrine talks about it, but I prefer to work more on official doctrine. But, very good job. What you are saying is our beliefs. Thank you.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Ben Borg Again
Well-Known Member
- Dec 21, 2004
- 1,097
- 96
- 104
- Faith
- Unitarian
- Politics
- US-Green
hey OP
you need to read the book ' HOw wide the divide"
written by a BYU prof and a evangelical Christian prof.
step by step outline of every doctrine, every verse, and how its interpreted differently, even goes in depth of how single words are interpreted by each faith..
its exectly what your looking for.
its exactly what your looking for.
you need to read the book ' HOw wide the divide"
written by a BYU prof and a evangelical Christian prof.
step by step outline of every doctrine, every verse, and how its interpreted differently, even goes in depth of how single words are interpreted by each faith..
its exectly what your looking for.
its exactly what your looking for.
Upvote
0
Ben Borg Again said:
Thank you, I will have to pick that up. I just found it at amazon.
Thanks.
Upvote
0
marvmax
interested in most things religious
JeffreyLloyd said:
Actually that is a very good book, it takes the Calvinist Evnagelical Protestant viewpoint for the non-Mormon side however. It goes into 4 topics quite in depth. Thosis, Scriptures I can't recall the other two off the top of my head. It would be interesting to see something simular happen with Catholics. The Protestant writer was so vilified however, that it will never happen again with an Evangelical Christian taking part, so maybe no Catholic would want to. Perhaps you could do one as the Catholic Writer, I'll sign up first to buy it.
Upvote
0
marvmax said:
That sounds like a fun project. Maybe I should start looking around to find a LDS writer to work with!
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Deren
Well-Known Member
- Apr 12, 2005
- 5,258
- 108
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
Ben Borg Again said:
Actually, it is not exactly what you're looking for, since Craig Blomberg was not prepared for the Mormon verbal gymnastics routine that Stephen Robinson put him through. A better source would be The New Mormon Challenge.
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
