help for my conversation with JW - the fish hat / the mitre

[PeterDona]

Glory be to Jesus Christ

Dear brothers and sisters in faith,
During my recent dialogue with 2 JW friends, they brought up the point that some catholic ceremonial clothing looks like something the Dagon fish-worshipping priests used.

They showed an image like this: http://19justinbrown88.yolasite.com...gon mitre pope.jpg.opt663x526o0,0s663x526.jpg

And the quote from Judges 16:23-24, where we can see the enmity between the fish god and the true God

I will say, honestly, their polemic hit home with me, and did catch me off-guard.

Can someone here lead me to a good resource on this, the use of the mitre. I have seen both the pope and my own bishop use this kind of fish-like hat. What is the point?

regards Peter

 

[HTacianas]

Glory be to Jesus Christ

Dear brothers and sisters in faith,
During my recent dialogue with 2 JW friends, they brought up the point that some catholic ceremonial clothing looks like something the Dagon fish-worshipping priests used.

They showed an image like this: http://19justinbrown88.yolasite.com/resources/fish hat of dagon mitre pope.jpg.opt663x526o0,0s663x526.jpg

And the quote from Judges 16:23-24, where we can see the enmity between the fish god and the true God

I will say, honestly, their polemic hit home with me, and did catch me off-guard.

Can someone here lead me to a good resource on this, the use of the mitre. I have seen both the pope and my own bishop use this kind of fish-like hat. What is the point?

regards Peter

If it helps, most ceremonial head dresses and vestments are patterned after the attire of Roman emperors and governors. They fairly well appeared after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. Their use reflects the elevation of the Christian priesthood to the status of secular leaders, meaning Christianity was on par with government. So you can tell your JW friends (and anyone else fascinated by Alexander Hislop) that they have nothing to do with "fish gods".

By way of example, the leaders of ancient religions - be it Egyptian, Philistine, Persian, etc.- all wore ceremonial garb. But note also that ancient Jewish priests did likewise. Now, were the ancient Jewish priests knocking off or following the surrounding pagan religions? No. And neither is Christianity.

Now, if you'd like to know how Christian clergy rose to the same level as Roman secular officials, look here:

1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

Note that one of those enemies was the Roman government. Years ago if you saw someone wearing a mitre you would recognize them as Roman officials. Now you only recognize them as Christian clergy. Who conquered whom?

 

[Chesster]

You might want to read Catholic Encyclopedia Mitre.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I will say, honestly, their polemic hit home with me, and did catch me off-guard.

Can someone here lead me to a good resource on this, the use of the mitre. I have seen both the pope and my own bishop use this kind of fish-like hat. What is the point?

It probably is a waste of time because the whole Dagon thing is purely based on superficial specious reasoning. I guess I would counter by talking about the Mitre and the sign of the Fish being the earliest Christian symbol, and the whole fish theme in the New Testament, including the initials of Chi and Rho and Ichthius.


Dagon fish hats and other nonsense


Read the linked article and get into the habit of talking about Christian liturgical tradition as coming out of Judaism.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Can someone here lead me to a good resource on this, the use of the mitre. I have seen both the pope and my own bishop use this kind of fish-like hat. What is the point?

Well your thread helped give me inspiration for a new video series on "The Foundations of Christian Worship". Your specific case especially makes a good Introduction, because I get inspiration and motivation from things that irk me. So planning on doing an introduction video tonight and will post here for ya too.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well your thread helped give me inspiration for a new video series on "The Foundations of Christian Worship". Your specific case especially makes a good Introduction, because I get inspiration and motivation from things that irk me. So planning on doing an introduction video tonight and will post here for ya too.

That's how my journey went, too.
Iron against iron.

------
Fish is the symbol of Christ in the earliest Christians.

JW, and I am so familiar with them believe me [I even dated one] go beyond the scope of comprehension into superstition.

Here's something to ponder... if we cannot use symbols, or even icons... then are they suggesting they are smarter than the Lord Himself Who indeed said

NUMBERS 21
The Bronze Snake

4They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, c to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”

6Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

8The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.


Because I'd like to see their argument with the Lord on that one.
I have literally had elders of the Kingdom hall run from me... squirm and wish to hide from me because I know what they believe. And scriptures themselves go against their professed cult.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Nice.

I had to do something similar with a Fundamentalist Bible guy, when it came to saints and relics, originally the topic was on "soliciting the prayers of the saints", and people claiming that was Necromancy!

I initially had to go with the history of Christian worship coming out of Judaism and other kinds of liturgical tradition stuff that you even see in the Bible.

But that was not enough.....

So I got out the online Jewish encyclopedia and quoted to him what it said as well as other kinds of Bible Encyclopedias, and how what both a false equivalency and a form of false witness by citing that. It also fits into Bible verses on gossip, because not all gossip is completely false some of it can contain some truth in it. But it violates a number of Biblical principles regarding looking out for your neighbor, not to mention some of the jurisprudence principles we get from the Bible like the ability to confront your accuser etc.

That line of reasoning did work!

 

[WarriorAngel]

Nice.

I had to do something similar with a Fundamentalist Bible guy, when it came to saints and relics, originally the topic was on "soliciting the prayers of the saints", and people claiming that was Necromancy!

I initially had to go with the history of Christian worship coming out of Judaism and other kinds of liturgical tradition stuff that you even see in the Bible.

But that was not enough.....

So I got out the online Jewish encyclopedia and quoted to him what it said as well as other kinds of Bible Encyclopedias, and how what both a false equivalency and a form of false witness by citing that. It also fits into Bible verses on gossip, because not all gossip is completely false some of it can contain some truth in it. But it violates a number of Biblical principles regarding looking out for your neighbor, not to mention some of the jurisprudence principles we get from the Bible like the ability to confront your accuser etc.

That line of reasoning did work!

My son said I ought to make youtube videos on faith

So good on ya for doing it. There's plenty of stuff to work with.

Indeed, necromancy eh? So they conjure up visions of us sitting around a seance room and requiring the Saints to show themselves and speak to us?

It's so incredible how superstition grows from the unlearned who have scrupulosity fears. Whole cults and religions are borne.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Indeed, necromancy eh? So they conjure up visions of us sitting around a seance room and requiring the Saints to show themselves and speak to us?

Yeah that was the actual argument, it actually didn't come from him initially but this other anonymous female poster on the board that seemed to be trying to be doing some form of Socratic Questioning with the intent of getting us to eventually question our faith and theology. I love it when people try to do that, because it ends up back firing! It actually gives me an avenue to show the foundations of something, when people are often not that interested in the topic and if you know your way around a topic you can actually end up championing and making more neutral people watching things really consider your point of view.

It's so incredible how superstition grows from the unlearned who have scrupulosity fears. Whole cults and religions are borne.

As I said to someone else (an atheist friends with) last week,

"I have gotten a lot of mileage from learning the term "Naïve Realism". Which describes a person who believes they see things, "reality" perfectly clearly and are not affected by things like beliefs, culture, past experiences and similar things by which filter the experience of most mortals.

Originally learned it for Biblical fundamentalists who were unaware of their idiosyncratic way of interpreting the Bible came from their personality than the grammar and history of the Bible and Christianity. I have seen some atheists who seem to fit this too, although I never cited it with them, because they were generally scornful and unpleasant to deal with.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Yeah that was the actual argument, it actually didn't come from him initially but this other anonymous female poster on the board that seemed to be trying to be doing some form of Socratic Questioning with the intent of getting us to eventually question our faith and theology. I love it when people try to do that, because it ends up back firing! It actually gives me an avenue to show the foundations of something, when people are often not that interested in the topic and if you know your way around a topic you can actually end up championing and making more neutral people watching things really consider your point of view.





As I said to someone else (an atheist friends with) last week,

"I have gotten a lot of mileage from learning the term "Naïve Realism". Which describes a person who believes they see things, "reality" perfectly clearly and are not affected by things like beliefs, culture, past experiences and similar things by which filter the experience of most mortals.

Originally learned it for Biblical fundamentalists who were unaware of their idiosyncratic way of interpreting the Bible came from their personality than the grammar and history of the Bible and Christianity. I have seen some atheists who seem to fit this too, although I never cited it with them, because they were generally scornful and unpleasant to deal with.

There are so many factors that could affect an adult mind.
1. Nurturing vs lack thereof.
2. Teach a child the ways of the Lord and they will not depart of it.
3. Life experiences/self talk in childhood.
4. Temptations and lies etc

An atheist is an angry child who didn't have their needs met and are most prone to lay that at the Lords feet. And or lived in an abusive environment of some type. Whatever it was that angered them. It has led some to hate, even themselves and where hate is it becomes difficult to transform [without the Lord and want of Him] by themselves.

Ya see, we are most spiritually close to the Lord as innocent babes.
I was very observant of my babies. I would watch them looking up above any human, including myself, and they would smile, giggle, and their eyes would shine so brightly. They would wiggle their feet upwards and stretch out their little arms towards someone. All the while giving smiles that would melt any heart.
I also showed each one of my 4 the picture of the Last Supper. Every single one of them around the age 12 months [without learned prejudice or formal teaching] would point to Judas and say 'Bad'.
Even cry or cover their eyes.

 

[PeterDona]

Well your thread helped give me inspiration for a new video series on "The Foundations of Christian Worship". Your specific case especially makes a good Introduction, because I get inspiration and motivation from things that irk me. So planning on doing an introduction video tonight and will post here for ya too.

I would be interested to see what you produce there. My jw friends had made a whole powerpoint, so they probably plan to show it to other people as well.
Our topic of discussion was actually not priestly garments, but the Trinity. And I am not well studied in liturgical topics. So your work will be helpful.
I do know this tendency to find things that will corroborate one's own way of belief. But until now I still agree with my jw friends that the Trinity is the topic of discussion, and that the Bible is the foundation. I do surely think that I have the long end of that discussion, so we will get there.

 

[Joined2krist]

JW friends?

 

[prodromos]

Glory be to Jesus Christ

Dear brothers and sisters in faith,
During my recent dialogue with 2 JW friends, they brought up the point that some catholic ceremonial clothing looks like something the Dagon fish-worshipping priests used.

They showed an image like this: http://19justinbrown88.yolasite.com/resources/fish hat of dagon mitre pope.jpg.opt663x526o0,0s663x526.jpg

And the quote from Judges 16:23-24, where we can see the enmity between the fish god and the true God

I will say, honestly, their polemic hit home with me, and did catch me off-guard.

Can someone here lead me to a good resource on this, the use of the mitre. I have seen both the pope and my own bishop use this kind of fish-like hat. What is the point?

regards Peter

Late seeing this, but the development of the Catholic mitre over the centuries is well documented and was a gradual change that had absolutely nothing to do with fish or pagan gods. The comparison they have made looks like it was taken wholesale from Alexander Hislop's "The Two Babylons", which is likely one of the most debunked books in history.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I would be interested to see what you produce there. My jw friends had made a whole powerpoint, so they probably plan to show it to other people as well.
Our topic of discussion was actually not priestly garments, but the Trinity. And I am not well studied in liturgical topics. So your work will be helpful.
I do know this tendency to find things that will corroborate one's own way of belief. But until now I still agree with my jw friends that the Trinity is the topic of discussion, and that the Bible is the foundation. I do surely think that I have the long end of that discussion, so we will get there.

They cannot answer a few things in scriptures.
I find it maddening they profess to know and contradict the Lord Himself and the Apostles.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The only thing is this: JW's will state any scriptures they do not agree with, was added later. But that is patently false.


John 14:
8 Philip says to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us”. 9 Jesus says to him, “Am I with you all for so long a time, and you have not known Me, Philip?— the one having seen Me has seen the Father. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? I am not speaking the words which I am saying to you from Myself, but the Father abiding in Me is doing His works.

Philippians 2:
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[PeterDona]

JW friends?

Yes. I made friends with them around 2017-18.
They were going door to door when I met them, and I invited them for a talk if they would be interested, and they would and so the relation started.
After a long pause in the relation I was the one who asked if they would be interested to study the arian controversy. They replied that they would be interested to study the Trinity, and so we started.

 

[PeterDona]

They cannot answer a few things in scriptures.
I find it maddening they profess to know and contradict the Lord Himself and the Apostles.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The only thing is this: JW's will state any scriptures they do not agree with, was added later. But that is patently false.


John 14:
8 Philip says to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us”. 9 Jesus says to him, “Am I with you all for so long a time, and you have not known Me, Philip?— the one having seen Me has seen the Father. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? I am not speaking the words which I am saying to you from Myself, but the Father abiding in Me is doing His works.

Philippians 2:
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Most certainly, all of your arguments are strong, at least when you come from a trinitarian standpoint. I also have a little bit didactical view on the conversation. While I present the material I watch for their reaction. I wait and watch for the point when the understanding will become reasonable to them. The funny thing is that something can be all over the Bible, but you do not see it until you see it.

I will say, my last presentation, where I made a presentation of the Trinity, presenting the "three-yet-one and one-yet-three" concept, I do believe I hit home there. They went very silent. I believe they somehow understood, that the Trinity doctrine was not so easy to shoot down.

The way I go about my presentation is to ask them, from Mark 14:61-62 : why was it a blasphemy when Jesus claimed that he is the messiah, the son of the blessed? And coming from another side, I say that if the Trinity doctrine is true, then I will expect that it is found all over the Bible, specifically we should be able to find it even in the very first books of the Bible, and even in the very first chapters. In order to go about it this way, I draw heavily on the "Two powers in heaven", a video that I found on youtube here:

Now the neat thing about this is, that you will find out that there was really in the OT more than one Jehova, and not only that, but the new testament passages refer back to those OT passages where you see it. I am now preparing to deliver to my JW friends on this idea, and I have the expectation that it will have a strong impact on them.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Most certainly, all of your arguments are strong, at least when you come from a trinitarian standpoint. I also have a little bit didactical view on the conversation. While I present the material I watch for their reaction. I wait and watch for the point when the understanding will become reasonable to them. The funny thing is that something can be all over the Bible, but you do not see it until you see it.

I will say, my last presentation, where I made a presentation of the Trinity, presenting the "three-yet-one and one-yet-three" concept, I do believe I hit home there. They went very silent. I believe they somehow understood, that the Trinity doctrine was not so easy to shoot down.

The way I go about my presentation is to ask them, from Mark 14:61-62 : why was it a blasphemy when Jesus claimed that he is the messiah, the son of the blessed? And coming from another side, I say that if the Trinity doctrine is true, then I will expect that it is found all over the Bible, specifically we should be able to find it even in the very first books of the Bible, and even in the very first chapters. In order to go about it this way, I draw heavily on the "Two powers in heaven", a video that I found on youtube here:

Now the neat thing about this is, that you will find out that there was really in the OT more than one Jehova, and not only that, but the new testament passages refer back to those OT passages where you see it. I am now preparing to deliver to my JW friends on this idea, and I have the expectation that it will have a strong impact on them.

I had a woman get cranky at my store whom I presented the trial of the Lord and Him saying 'I Am, before Abraham...'
AND asked her - because you have to ask them to get their noggin involved... why they said He blasphemed calling Himself God.

Also Isaiah said a Son born to us...
He will be called Father Almighty.

SO best wishes on that.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Oh and St Thomas came to mind..
When he saw the marks.. "MY Lord and MY God..!' and he wasn't taking His name in vain nor blaspheming regarding Jesus.

So there's that.