Help debating non-believers in another forum

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Hello again,

I am a frequent poster on a fencing forum that can have some pretty heated arguments about politics and morality as well. One of the fencers has started a thread to show everyone an article on gay penguins in an effort to justify his lifestyle. As usual, everyone has chimed in about how wonderful it is and that its okay to be gay etc. One guy even began to make a run down of all the arguments someone would make against homosexuality. He also used what he considered to be the proper counterarguments. I could handle the secular ones put wanted to puke at his Biblical counterarguments.

I therefore did I best to refute what he had had. You can view this thread at http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=118395#post118395

Does anyone have any ideas on where I can take this now? So far my only refute has been weak and has absolutely no data to back it up. He just basically says its okay to be homosexual and that the US government has no right to say that homosexual couples cannot be married. I know just enough about US government to be dangerous. Unfortunately, I am not sure if the US government has any right. That is not my stand. My stand is for the Bible and what it teaches. My stand is against a lifestyle that the Bible teaches is wrong. My stand is that I love these people and pray that they repent.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

ooh!! Now its getting juicy as someone, very politely I must admit, has began refutting my remarks. I won't paraphrase as everyone should be able to read it themselves. I'd love for a little help in formulating my next argument.

 

[razzelflabben]

I find when talking to "headstrong" people, two things to be vital.

One, by what authority do they speak. If they speak from God's authority, then it is easy because the scripture is very clear on the topic. If they have another authority, then speak from life experiences that allow the truth of scirpture to shine through. I will take a look at the discussion and see if I can be of any further help but let me get to point number two, which usually has a huge impact. Please make sure that you allow God to be your authority as well by removing yourself and letting God speak His words through you.

Two, why do they hold the views they do? This requires asking questions and listening before speaking but is a most effective way of tearing down defensive walls and opening the lines of communication. Gay's are feeling strong emotions, love, sense of belonging, sense of being attacked, guilt, anger, etc. Few christians ever just talk to them, but instead, they judge and try to convict them. Do they hold to the homosexual lifestyle because of love, history, rebellion, or something else. These are questions that will help you to reach them because it will give you a starting place for the scriptural discussion you are seeking. Few sins are about the sin. Most have an underlying issue, something they are seeking that God can fill if they only know what they are seeking and you can show them how to find it.

 

[Kathryn]

I find when talking to "headstrong" people, two things to be vital.

One, by what authority do they speak. If they speak from God's authority, then it is easy because the scripture is very clear on the topic. If they have another authority, then speak from life experiences that allow the truth of scirpture to shine through. I will take a look at the discussion and see if I can be of any further help but let me get to point number two, which usually has a huge impact. Please make sure that you allow God to be your authority as well by removing yourself and letting God speak His words through you.

Two, why do they hold the views they do? This requires asking questions and listening before speaking but is a most effective way of tearing down defensive walls and opening the lines of communication. Gay's are feeling strong emotions, love, sense of belonging, sense of being attacked, guilt, anger, etc. Few christians ever just talk to them, but instead, they judge and try to convict them. Do they hold to the homosexual lifestyle because of love, history, rebellion, or something else. These are questions that will help you to reach them because it will give you a starting place for the scriptural discussion you are seeking. Few sins are about the sin. Most have an underlying issue, something they are seeking that God can fill if they only know what they are seeking and you can show them how to find it.

Beautiful post! I absolutly agree.

To add my two cents:

The problem here is you are using a reference that lacks credibility to them--the Bible. You have two options:

1. Find a non-biblical argument
2. Agree to disagree

You can't use the Bible to back up your arguments with a non-believer and expect to be taken seriously. Honestly, what if I told you War and Peace says homosexuality was a blessing. You wouldn't care and you would think it was a stupid argument to make in the first place. You using the Bible is no different to them.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Thanks for the input. Here are a few quick comments.

1. The point I am arguing against is where one of the other posters claimed that even the Bible is not clear as to whether homosexuality is wrong. The poster says something like its a little tricky because Paul is personally against homosexuality but that can be countered by other merits and citations within the book. I realise that the secular arguments are hard to win when I am citing a source that the other posters put no stock in.

Another counter argument that has come out is that "Hey the Episcopalians have ordained a gay bishop. So even Christians are not united in their belief." Then there was the "God made everything perfect, so you can't say that homosexuality is wrong because God made it."

2. razzelflabben, your post shows a great deal of true Christian love and compassion. I wish we had more non-judgemental people like you. I've been very clear that I am not judging homosexuals, but rather that I know the Bible clear states that such activity, just as adultery, is a sin. Still, I can see great Godly wisdom in what you say. Thanks to both of you for the input.

 

[countrymousenc]

1. The point I am arguing against is where one of the other posters claimed that even the Bible is not clear as to whether homosexuality is wrong. The poster says something like its a little tricky because Paul is personally against homosexuality but that can be countered by other merits and citations within the book. I realise that the secular arguments are hard to win when I am citing a source that the other posters put no stock in.

This is where arguing on the basis of opinion always ends up. They know that you take the Bible as authoritative; therefore they'll play around with interpretation. After all, anyone may interpret as they please, and, unfortunately, skeptics aren't the only ones who think so. Else the ECUSA would not have ordained an actively homosexual bishop, and no other Christian denominations would even be reconsidering the "homosexual question."

I wish I could be of more help, but I have concluded that the only purpose of debate is to win. Truth is hardly ever the foremost issue. People really do believe what they want to believe, and debate does not dissuade them.

 

[ChrisB]

In such a situation I'm always inclined to follow the advice in Matthew 10:14

Matthew 10
14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.

 

[razzelflabben]

Thanks for the input. Here are a few quick comments.

1. The point I am arguing against is where one of the other posters claimed that even the Bible is not clear as to whether homosexuality is wrong. The poster says something like its a little tricky because Paul is personally against homosexuality but that can be countered by other merits and citations within the book. I realise that the secular arguments are hard to win when I am citing a source that the other posters put no stock in.

Another counter argument that has come out is that "Hey the Episcopalians have ordained a gay bishop. So even Christians are not united in their belief." Then there was the "God made everything perfect, so you can't say that homosexuality is wrong because God made it."

2. razzelflabben, your post shows a great deal of true Christian love and compassion. I wish we had more non-judgemental people like you. I've been very clear that I am not judging homosexuals, but rather that I know the Bible clear states that such activity, just as adultery, is a sin. Still, I can see great Godly wisdom in what you say. Thanks to both of you for the input.

I am far from an expert when it comes to this discussion, by the way, I did not mean to insinuate that you were judging, and I also do not believe that it is okay to agree to disagree when ones spiritual health is on the line. I don't know if this will help any but from your post, what struck me was this question. Which of Paul's books are we referring too and where and how does it disagree that homosexuality is wrong? I have not found such discrepency and without knowing where the other person sees a discrepency, it would be impossible to know how to address the issue.

As to the issue of God making everything, therefore it is good, I would simply take one back to Gen. God made man and man was very good but sin came into the world and mucked up everything. Since that fall, we have lived in a broken world and a broken world is an imperfect world no matter how we would like to think differently.

It always surprises me how many people who claim scripture as their authority know nothing of that authority and must go all the way back to Gen 1 before we can continue a discussion of any depth.
I am praying for you in your discussion.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Things are going fine, I guess. You all may actually wish to look at this yourselves

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9980

I asked the person to show verses, all that has happened is the poster has attempted to split hairs by saying that Paul talking against homosexuality in Romans 1:26 had to do with large sexual orgies, and not relationships between two people. I'm almost through with this discussion because clearly this poster wishes to think this way and will contort scripture to point to that view in whatever manner possible.

Thanks again

 

[razzelflabben]

Things are going fine, I guess. You all may actually wish to look at this yourselves

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9980

I asked the person to show verses, all that has happened is the poster has attempted to split hairs by saying that Paul talking against homosexuality in Romans 1:26 had to do with large sexual orgies, and not relationships between two people. I'm almost through with this discussion because clearly this poster wishes to think this way and will contort scripture to point to that view in whatever manner possible.

Thanks again

Before you leave them without a voice of truth, try giving them a little history lesson. My husband is a scolar of sorts, I have asked him to give you a little history to go along with the scripture discussion. A little knoweledge can be a dangerous thing to those who are decieved.

It is very telling that they started their discussion of homosexuality with illustrations from the natural world. In the animal world homosexual behaviour is a sign of the dominance of one male over another. The dominant male chimpanzee sodomizes the weaker male to show that he is dominant over the other. If you read Genesis and Ezekial Chapter 16 together you will see the Lord's real issue with Sodom and Gomorrah. The rich and powerful would oppress the poor and foreigner by raping them. In much of the ancient world sodomy was practiced as a form of dominance by the rich and powerful (much as it was in the army of Carthage). This is one of the reasons that God forbade homosexual relationships. There are many other reasons but the issue that God has with all forms of sexual immorality is how it debases those involved (1 Cor 6:18-20). Just because homosexuality occurs in the natural (fallen) world does not mean that it is beneficial for those involved or for society. God cares deeply for all of his creation and does not wish us to be harmed by ourselves and others.

An example of how this oppression exists even today can be seen in the vacations that sexually immoral men take to poor countries. The heterosexuals to take advantage of poor girls and women and the homosexuals to take advantage of poor men and boys. This again is a show of dominance and is coincidentally how HIV was spread to the wealthy nations.

And for any who say that only a few homosexuals engage in this type of behaviour let us not forget that we are instructed to avoid the appearance of evil (1 Thess 5:22 KJV). Just as a heterosexual man needs to stay away from pornography because it oppresses women the homosexual man need to stay away from homosexual acts because it can oppress other men and boys.

Finally "The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the LORD, and the LORD for the body. " 1 Cor 6:13b

 

[1by1]

Bottom line, don't debate with anyone. We aren't supposed to. Bible says that. So just drop it and walk away. It's pointless. No one is going to change their view anyway.

 

[razzelflabben]

Bottom line, don't debate with anyone. We aren't supposed to. Bible says that. So just drop it and walk away. It's pointless. No one is going to change their view anyway.

Where do you see scriptural proof for this line of thinking? Jesus confronted people all the time and we are instructed to follow Jesus example. The problem is that every time, we are required to confront the people with the truth, in love. Jesus always took the time to love and listen to the people. If we do not love and listen then our words have no meaning. Often times, the people did not like what Jesus had to tell them. His words and teachings were hard to take, and even harder to internalize, but this does not mean they were not vital to the Christian faith and Godliness. To say nothing is lack of love. Jesus says that you will know them by thier Love. Sounds like a problem with your line of thinking to me. If you would like to present your scripture, we can discuss it from a historical and total Biblical perspective.

 

[razzelflabben]

Things are going fine, I guess. You all may actually wish to look at this yourselves

http://www.fencing101.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9980

I asked the person to show verses, all that has happened is the poster has attempted to split hairs by saying that Paul talking against homosexuality in Romans 1:26 had to do with large sexual orgies, and not relationships between two people. I'm almost through with this discussion because clearly this poster wishes to think this way and will contort scripture to point to that view in whatever manner possible.

Thanks again

I just went to the link and read most of the posts, you have an interesting, lively, and challenging discussion there. Seems like you are doing a good job. Maybe this is where my advise should end but I did have an additional thought for you on this discussion. For here or there, Sometimes, people who claim to use scripture as their authority would rather use scripture to justify their sin than to learn the truth. It seems from my reading of the thread that some would fit into this catagory and as such, they will always find scriptures to do just that, justify their sin.

So, let us look at it from thier point of view for a moment. They cannot bare the thought that what they think and feel, is sinnful. They need to see a different perspective on the same issue, so that they see things from several different directions and therefore, their justification can no longer exist. So from this point it would be nice to continue discussing and studying the scriptures on this issue, but also deal with the practical reprocutions for society if gay marriages are allowed.

There are two laws, laws against God, all of which carry the penalty of death and laws against man, the penalty of which vary based on the heiarchy of mans perception of the gravity of the offense. This is primarily based on how individuals and society are affected by the offense. In the case of homosexual marriage, several reprocusions would occur in society, (I would greatly appreciate a discussion on this part of the issue for I have only begun thinking about it in this way myself) It would help to further distroy the family unit. Here is why. When we loosened our laws to make divorce an easy thing, more and more people saw marriage as a formality of life rather than a life long commitment. The end result is rampant divorce and the erosion of the family unit. Gay marriage would add to this erosion by loosening the rules even more. We are currently on a slippery slope with marriage, what would be next, marriage between those who want sex with animals. Maybe single parents married to thier children, this would give them the same legal rights. For the sake of society, we must preserve the family unit. The family unit is mother, father, children, sometimes including grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins. Marriage is a committment between a man and woman that should not be allowed to easily be broken. Same sex marriage tears down that commitment helping to make marriage committment meaningless.

Another social issue with same sex marriages is how it reinforces society to further give up all self responsibility. Self control and responsibility should be a natural built into society yet we keep pushing the envelop of what is ascepted so that self control is no longer required. Premarrital sex, rape, underage drinking, drugs, insanity and even prejudice. All of these things have helped to take away our responsibility over ourselves. Same sex marriage would continue to erode this part of our society away. There are certain things in our society that we do not tolerate. Usually it is because tolerating them would be harmful to society. But every little bit, someone becomes skilled in making the justification of their sin sound like a good thing and the envelope is pushed in an attempt to be fair. This fairness, erodes away our society and we deal with it because we are being toleratable. Before the arguement becomes one of race, incorperating blacks into our society has not eroded away anything noticable but hatred. It is when society allows God's laws to no longer exist that society is harmed. The harm will not be immediately noticable, but it will come.

 

[The Midge]

The re-interpretation of the Bible to suggest that prohibitions on Homosexual behaviour were culturally specific were first proposed by Derrick Sherwin Bailey. John Stott gives a conservative evangelical of the interpretational issues in Chapter 16 of Issues Facing Christians Today.

 

[razzelflabben]

The re-interpretation of the Bible to suggest that prohibitions on Homosexual behaviour were culturally specific were first proposed by Derrick Sherwin Bailey. John Stott gives a conservative evangelical of the interpretational issues in Chapter 16 of Issues Facing Christians Today.

I am not sure I am following you and what you are trying to say. Are you saying that we should read into the scirpture other than what is there? Are you saying that some do this but not you? Are you saying that God has changed? That there is another authority by which we should live and love? When we look at scripture and try to understand it, we must do so from the totality of the scriptures and I see no contriction in scripture to the understanding that homosexuality is a sin and that all sexual immorality is a large issue with God. God says He is the same yesterday, today and forever. How can one say that in one account it is a sin in another it is not. This is beyond my understanding and I would appreciate any understanding how one can beleive that this type of interpretation is correct.

 

[nadroj1985]

And for any who say that only a few homosexuals engage in this type of behaviour let us not forget that we are instructed to avoid the appearance of evil (1 Thess 5:22 KJV). Just as a heterosexual man needs to stay away from pornography because it oppresses women the homosexual man need to stay away from homosexual acts because it can oppress other men and boys.

I'll admit I haven't read the whole thread, but I just wanted to point out that this is a poor analogy. It only works if you use one of these two options:

1) Just as a heterosexual man needs to stay away from pornography because it oppresses women the homosexual man need to stay away from homosexual pornography because it can oppress other men and boys.

Or.......

2) Just as a heterosexual man needs to stay away from heterosexual acts because it oppresses women the homosexual man need to stay away from homosexual acts because it can oppress other men and boys.

 

[razzelflabben]

I'll admit I haven't read the whole thread, but I just wanted to point out that this is a poor analogy. It only works if you use one of these two options:

1) Just as a heterosexual man needs to stay away from pornography because it oppresses women the homosexual man need to stay away from homosexual pornography because it can oppress other men and boys.

Or.......

2) Just as a heterosexual man needs to stay away from heterosexual acts because it oppresses women the homosexual man need to stay away from homosexual acts because it can oppress other men and boys.

or let us add a third
3) Just as a heterosexual man needs to stay away from premarital sex or sexual immorality of any kind including lustful thoughts, so the homosexual needs to stay away from all acts of sexual immorality of any kind including practicing homosexuality and lust.
I Thess. 4:4-5 giving into sexual imorality of any kind is lack of control.

In another forum I am participating in, the question was asked, why is God against homosexuality. Maybe exploring this issue would give us a better understanding as to how and why homosexuality affects our society and us individually on such a level.

 

[nadroj1985]

In another forum I am participating in, the question was asked, why is God against homosexuality. Maybe exploring this issue would give us a better understanding as to how and why homosexuality affects our society and us individually on such a level.
[/color]

OK let's explore it then, because I have no idea why God is against homosexuality. I'd like to know what you think about it.........

 

[1by1]

Where do you see scriptural proof for this line of thinking? ......

......Sounds like a problem with your line of thinking to me. If you would like to present your scripture, we can discuss it from a historical and total Biblical perspective.

"Sounds like a problem with your line of thinking to me."

Thanks for the insult! Great, loving Christian attitude you have there.

Scriptures? How about Titus 3:9, and 2 Timothy 2:14, and 2 Timothy 2:23-24.

Oh, but I know you will come back at me in your superior wisdom and try to explain what YOU think those verses mean.

Heck, even the very fact that I am writing this makes me guilty, too.

 

[razzelflabben]

"Sounds like a problem with your line of thinking to me."

Thanks for the insult! Great, loving Christian attitude you have there.

Scriptures? How about Titus 3:9, and 2 Timothy 2:14, and 2 Timothy 2:23-24.

Oh, but I know you will come back at me in your superior wisdom and try to explain what YOU think those verses mean.

Heck, even the very fact that I am writing this makes me guilty, too.

I truely am sorry you feel this way. I only intended to understand what you were trying to say for it does not sound like the caring God I know to say, walk away, they don't want to hear anyway. God talked to people, He cared whether or not they heard. It was only after they were told the truth and refused to listen that He instructed us to walk away.

From the tone of your post, I would deduct that you have spoken to homosexuals before and gotten a very bad response. All I can say to you is that not every homosexual is closed to hearing the word of the Lord. That is why I disagree with you. The scriptures you present must be taken with all the others that instruct us to go out and share the gospel. Honestly, most people will at least listen if you first listen to them.

I totally agree with you when we first take the time to share, shareing being a two way street. But I also think it vital to try to reach them before we walk away. One or two posts does not make an effort which was my understanding of the context of which we are talking. It is with this context that I find a disagreement with your post. I am truely sorry you did not find the love in which it was intended and I shall try to be more gentle in the future.