Hello all, quick question...

[Skripper]

The True Church will not be different that the Early Church . . it will be the same . .

Well ... sort of, if by the "same" you mean in the sense that an adult is the "same" person as he or she was as an infant. But not the "same" in the sense that the infant is exactly the same as the adult. Just as an infant develops into an adult, so too the Church. Certainly the Church today is not exactly like the infant Church. It has developed, just like an infant develops into an adult. If we are looking for a Church that looks exactly like the early infant Church, I'm afraid we won't find it, anywhere.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well ... sort of, if by the "same" you mean in the sense that an adult is the "same" person as he or she was as an infant. But not the "same" in the sense that the infant is exactly the same as the adult. Just as an infant develops into an adult, so too the Church. Certainly the Church today is not exactly like the infant Church. It has developed, just like an infant develops into an adult. If we are looking for a Church that looks exactly like the early infant Church, I'm afraid we won't find it, anywhere.

Yes, That's what I meant . .. the same . . as an adult is the same person they were when they were a baby, not a different person altogether . .

The beliefs of the Church today are the same as they were when it began . . not differnt beliefs . . more mature beliefs, but not something altogether different . .



Peace in Him!

 

[Skripper]

Yes, That's what I meant . .. the same . . as an adult is the same person they were when they were a baby, not a different person altogether . .

The beliefs of the Church today are the same as they were when it began . . not differnt beliefs . . more mature beliefs, but not something altogether different . .



Peace in Him!

I figured that's what you meant. But if it's not clarified, you know what will happen. Somebody with a desire to "disprove" that the infant Church was Catholic will jump in and start making various claims regarding certain doctrines that have developed over time, confusing legitimate doctrinal developments with corruptions or accusing the Catholic Church of "inventing" doctrines, etc.

 

[feo]

Hey Thereselittleflower! The "church" i do Attend Has Most of What You Said, but Not all....

To know if the church, or group, you are fellowshipping with is the "true" Church, examine how it measures up to the Early Church in teachings and practice . .

Does it have the Sacraments - Baptismal Regeneration, Confession, The Real Presence? What about the Communion of Saints? The Mass?

We do Believe in Confession, But i'm Not Sure if its The Same Confession That Catholics Believe. Every Week we Get together for "guys" Night where we Discuss Our Sins, Praises, and Make Plans... for Whatever Reason, its Much Easier to Talk About Personal issues When Girls arnt Around but we do Practise Confession, although not Always to a "priest" as Catholics do? Sometimes Things are Between us & Jesus, and at Other Times we Confess to Jesus alone.

as Far as "Baptismal Regeneration, many of us Are Baptised- but we dont see That as an Essential Part of Faith. i'm Personally Baptised, and i Think its a Beautiful Thing- i Would Encourage Everyone Whos a Christian to be Baptised. i Guess i Just Dont See it as a "big deal". When Jesus Told The Thief on The Cross, "You will be with me in Paradise" i Dont Think... jesus Really Cared Whether or Not he Was Baptised

and The "Communion of Saints"? i Know my mom Always Prays to "Saint Anthony" Whenever She Loses her Car Keys... we do Practise Communion, but its Not Led by a Catholic Priest, nor do i Remember Any of The Saints being Mentioned into it. honestly, the Only Saint i'm Familar With is "Anthony" (to Help you Find Your Car keys) Would This Not be "true" Communion According to Catholic Standards? and be Honest With me, i Promise Not to Get Offended... if Your Beliefs are Different From mine.

and "Mass". hmmm. i Always Thought This Was Just the "catholic" Name For "church service". yikes. i Shoulda Been Paying Attention in Catacism Class when i Was a Small Child instead of Drawing Mustaches on baby Jesus!

What Exactly do You Mean by "Sacraments"? and the "Real Presense"?

do its teachings on doctrines match those of the Early Church?


These are a few of the signs of the True Church . .

Are You Talking About Additional Doctrines Besides The one You Listed Above?

Thanks For Being Patient With me! You Guys Have Been Much More Warm With me, Compared to Any Other Thread i Posted in. i Hope you all Have a Great Evening, im off to bed

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hey Thereselittleflower! The "church" i do Attend Has Most of What You Said, but Not all....



We do Believe in Confession, But i'm Not Sure if its The Same Confession That Catholics Believe. Every Week we Get together for "guys" Night where we Discuss Our Sins, Praises, and Make Plans... for Whatever Reason, its Much Easier to Talk About Personal issues When Girls arnt Around but we do Practise Confession, although not Always to a "priest" as Catholics do? Sometimes Things are Between us & Jesus, and at Other Times we Confess to Jesus alone.

Hi feo!


Let me ask you this . . do you trust everyone in the group to know your deepest darkest secrets?

Confession, in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, is a Sacrament . . You asked about what a Sacrament is little further down, so I will explain it here . .

A Sacrament is a special act that conveys God's Grace, infusing the very life and power of God, into our lives . .

The Sacrament of Confession conveys the Grace of forgiveness to us . . we know that when the priest tells us that our sins are forgiven, that they are indeed forgiven without question . . Jesus passed the power to forgive sins on to the Apostles . . He told them whosesoever sins they forgive, are forgiven, an whosesoever sins they retain are retained . . this is a pretty powerful responsibility . . and through Apostolic succession, this power is passed on to all priests . .

So, it is more than just confessing your sins to someone; you are confessing your sins to someone who has the power to forgive your sins . .

In the Catholic Church, we recognize two types of repentance (or contrition) . .

First is the perfect act of contrition . .

The other is an imperfect act of contrition . .


An imperfect act of contrition is one where we are really sorry for our sins, but because we are afraid of going to hell, or we want to gain heaven . .

Our repentance is then based on what it can gain for us . . .


A Perfect Act of contrition is one wehre, regardless of anything that we might avoid or gain by repenting and confessing our sins, our sole motivation is our sorrow over how we have offended God by our sins . .


In an imperfect act of contrition, we are doubtful of whether or not we are truly forgiven . . .

In a perfect act of cotnrition, there is absolutely no doubt, we know beyond all shadow of a doubt and the enemy cannot accuse us or assail us . .

The vast majority of repetances are imperfect, few are prefect . . and so, are in doubt of being genuine . . without genuine repentance, there is no forgiveness of sins . .


So . . Jesus gives us priests invested with the power to forgive sins . . and even when we come to confession with real sorrow, but imperfect contrition, when that priest says our sins are forgiven, we know they are forgiven because Jesus said that when they forgive sins, the are forgiven . .

There is no question, there is no discussion, there is no arguement . . the word of God is clear . . and we can trust Jesus to keep His promise . .

This is a great Grace God has given us!

as Far as "Baptismal Regeneration, many of us Are Baptised- but we dont see That as an Essential Part of Faith. i'm Personally Baptised, and i Think its a Beautiful Thing- i Would Encourage Everyone Whos a Christian to be Baptised. i Guess i Just Dont See it as a "big deal". When Jesus Told The Thief on The Cross, "You will be with me in Paradise" i Dont Think... jesus Really Cared Whether or Not he Was Baptised

There are instances where it is impossible to experience physical baptims before death, and the Church teaches that these are baptized by desire . . however, the exception does not make the rule . .

The Early Christians believed that Baptism washed away their sins . . it was the entrance into the New Life of the New Covenant, the way they were joined to the body of believers . . . And, as I described above, it is a Sacrament that conveys Grace into our lives . .that of the New Birth - the intitial infusing of God's life into our lives . . it is the beginning from which all else flows . .

I firmly believe that God can infuse the soul with Graces before they actually experience baptism, but this does not mean that baptism is unnecessary, but that God is not limited to the sacraments . . Personally, I believe that God can do many things in our lives in anticipation of our entrance into the Sacrament of Baptism . .

the Catholic Church teaches that those who through ignorance do not know of the need to be baptized, and are not before they die, do receive the baptism of desire as the theif on the cross did . .

But what is key here is how the 1st Christians viewed baptism . . if they viewed it as a necessity, an act through which the New Birth flowed, why should we consider it differently today?

and The "Communion of Saints"? i Know my mom Always Prays to "Saint Anthony" Whenever She Loses her Car Keys... we do Practise Communion, but its Not Led by a Catholic Priest, nor do i Remember Any of The Saints being Mentioned into it. honestly, the Only Saint i'm Familar With is "Anthony" (to Help you Find Your Car keys) Would This Not be "true" Communion According to Catholic Standards? and be Honest With me, i Promise Not to Get Offended... if Your Beliefs are Different From mine.

The communion of Saints is the belief that all saints are members of Christ's body, and are in communion, whether alive or dead in Christ . . and as such, we can ask those who have passed and are in heaven to pray for us, to interceede for us before the throne of God . .

The Early Church believed this and practiced it . . there are thousands of prayers to martyrs who died and were buried in the catacombs for their intercessions . . . thousands . .

We have a powerful army of prayer warriors before the throne of God . . why should one remove oneself from them or distance oneself from them?

and "Mass". hmmm. i Always Thought This Was Just the "catholic" Name For "church service". yikes. i Shoulda Been Paying Attention in Catacism Class when i Was a Small Child instead of Drawing Mustaches on baby Jesus!

Perhaps

Mass is the name given for the Catholic "church service' yes . . it is the name given by the Early Church to their service . . the Mass today follows the Mass of the Early Church . . the Liturgy of the Word, followed by the Liturgy of the Eucharist . .

Does the church service where you go follow the Mass of the Early Church?

What Exactly do You Mean by "Sacraments"? and the "Real Presense"?

I would be happy to explain, and please you are always welcome to ask any questions you have!

I explained about the Sacraments above . . but basically there are 7 in the Catholic Church

Baptism
Confirmation (the gifting of the Holy Spirit in fullness)
Eucharist (partaking of the body and blood of Christ)
Marriage
Holy Orders
Penance (confession/reconcilliation)
Extreme unction (anointing of the sick)

here is a very detailed treatment of sacraments in the Catholic Church:

http://www.stcecelia.com/Nav%20Pages/7sacraments/Main%20Page.htm


The Real Presence is the teaching of the Church from the beginning that Jesus is really, truly presnet in the Eucharistic host and cup . . that He becomes present, flesh and blood, when the host and wine are consecrated by a priest . .

Thus, when a Catholic partakes in communion, they are actually and truly receiving the body (flesh) and blood of Christ, not mere symbols respresenting his body and blood . . but partaking of his body and blood as he said we were . .

Only a priest in the line of apostolic succession can make this consecration resulting in the Real Presence of our Lord in the Eucharistic Host and Cup . .

Communion in Protestant Churches is usually seen as symbolic, and those who would have it be the Real Presence do not have the Real Presence as they co not have preists ordained in valid succession from the Apostles . .


The Eucharist is the center of the Christian faith of the Early Church as in it, Jesus is made really present on our altars - in a miraculous way, Christ''s sacrifice is made present on our altars . . not to be offered again, but the offering once for all time is made present to us right now . . somehow, time and eternity are joined, and we are joined to His sacrifice made once in time . .

The Early Church had the Real Presence of Jesus on their altars . . and this, of them all, may be, no, is, the most important and biggest test as to determining where the true Church is today . .

Does one's Church have the Eucharsit Real Presence of Christ consecrated at the hands of a priest ordained in valid Apostlic Succession?

Are You Talking About Additional Doctrines Besides The one You Listed Above?

Thanks For Being Patient With me! You Guys Have Been Much More Warm With me, Compared to Any Other Thread i Posted in. i Hope you all Have a Great Evening, im off to bed

There are other doctrines but what we discussed is quite a bit already . . if you want to know about any specific doctrines, please feel free to ask . . The biggies are contained in the Nicene Creed . .

Lots of information I know, and lots to think about . . . and probably lots more questions . . which we are happy to answer the best we can.


Peace in Him!

 

[pmarquette]

medieval quandranga -- St. Augustine , interpretation of the Holy Writ
1. literal sense
2. historical sense
3. allegorical ... hidden meanings
4. anagogical ... personal

 

[Skripper]

Therese,

WOW! Great post!

 

[Skripper]

medieval quandranga -- St. Augustine , interpretation of the Holy Writ
1. literal sense
2. historical sense
3. allegorical ... hidden meanings
4. anagogical ... personal

Didn't St. Augustine (354-430) die before medieval times (approximately 500-1500)? In any event, the above, if we replace #2 "historical" with "spiritual", sounds a lot like this, also from the CCC:



The senses of Scripture

115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.


116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scr-ipture are based on the literal."83

117The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.


1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.84

2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".85

3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86

118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses: The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87119 "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88

But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.89 (St. Augustine, Contra epistolam Manichaei, 5,6l 42,176.)

 

[pmarquette]

I would like to hear the Catholic point of view on interpreting the Bible.
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/teachframes.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CATHSOFT/BIBCOM.TXT

I know that I am not allowed to do this in the OBOB forum, but there never seems to be anyone in the Interdenominational Forum, so starting the thread there would be somewhat useless.
http://www.getfed.com/cgi-bin/ph/ph.cgi?group=bstudy&rep=awbstudy
http://www.catholicexchange.com/css/
http://www.amm.org/chss.htm

My question is, where can I ask this question that will provide me with a lot of Catholics that can answer, and an environment where we can debate a bit?

can go to www.oncecatholic.org and read questions / answers on any one of several forums , can start a thread within protestant / evangelical forum ( former catholics ) ; can make nice here and receive the answer given , whether agrees with what you have been taught or heard ...

 

[Bastoune]

No. I can't believe after reading all that, that you came to that conclusion. It would seem that you had a pre-conceived notion that you sought to prove perhaps. What the Catechism is saying is that, you are free to interpret within the guidelines stated but that ultimately, the Church is the arbiter on matters of faith and morals. Now, why is this? When Jesus said, He would send the Holy Spirit who would guide unto all truth, to whom was he speaking? Just anybody? No, it was to the Apostles.

God speaks to all of us through the Holy Scriptures and we are free to read and allow God's written word to enlighten us. But no one can read and personally interpret scripture and determine doctrine from it. The scripture's themselves speak against this. We can already see the result of doing so. It's called Protestantism. And to date there are over 30,000 different denominations all claiming the bible as their sole and final rule of faith. Well, unless they're all reading different bibles, they're just interpreting the same bible for themselves in different ways...known as private judgement, which the Catholic Church rejects for legitimate reasons.

Does this help?

As well, read Acts 9, the story of the Ethiopian eunuch.

Ephesians 4, and 1 Cor. 12 show that all have different roles... not all can interpret, not all are teachers, not all are leaders.

Everything must be in context with the WHOLE BIBLE, and not contradictory. Look at the various denominations all preaching contradictory doctrines... who's right?

 

[feo]

Hey Thanks For Taking The Time to Type all That Out, i Appreciate it!

Let me ask you this . . do you trust everyone in the group to know your
deepest darkest secrets?

hehehe, The Secrets i do Share- i DO Trust With my Friends. i Think its a Very Humble Habit- to humiliate Yourself in Front of Others; and Ask For help... and even repenting to Those you Sinned Against.

as Christians, i Believe its Our Responsibility to Bear Each Other's Problems, and Help out as Best as You Can... i am Very Thankful to Have Friends Who Are Open and Honest With me: together we all grow stronger in Christ.

The Sacrament of Confession conveys the Grace of forgiveness to us . . we know that when the priest tells us that our sins are forgiven, that they are indeed forgiven without question . . Jesus passed the power to forgive sins on to the Apostles . . He told them whosesoever sins they forgive, are forgiven, an whosesoever sins they retain are retained . . this is a pretty powerful responsibility . . and through Apostolic succession, this power is passed on to all priests . .

i Agree, Confessng Your Sins to an authority Figure is a Good Idea. people Who Devote Their Life to The Church have spent enough Time in The Word to Properly Give You excellent advise. But! i Dont Think Confession Should be Limited to JUST That.

So, it is more than just confessing your sins to someone; you are confessing your sins to someone who has the power to forgive your sins . .

Didnt Christ Give us ALL The Power to Forgive Sins? Even in His Holy Prayer, we Say "...and forgive those sinned against us..."

In the Catholic Church, we recognize two types of repentance (or contrition) . .

First is the perfect act of contrition . .

The other is an imperfect act of contrition . .


An imperfect act of contrition is one where we are really sorry for our sins, but because we are afraid of going to hell, or we want to gain heaven . .

Our repentance is then based on what it can gain for us . . .


A Perfect Act of contrition is one wehre, regardless of anything that we might avoid or gain by repenting and confessing our sins, our sole motivation is our sorrow over how we have offended God by our sins . .


In an imperfect act of contrition, we are doubtful of whether or not we are truly forgiven . . .

In a perfect act of cotnrition, there is absolutely no doubt, we know beyond all shadow of a doubt and the enemy cannot accuse us or assail us . .

The vast majority of repetances are imperfect, few are prefect . . and so, are in doubt of being genuine . . without genuine repentance, there is no forgiveness of sins . .

This Was a Little Vague for me :S Are You Saying That my repentance is "imperfect" Because an IMPERFECT Priest Didnt Forgive me?

But what is key here is how the 1st Christians viewed baptism . . if they viewed it as a necessity, an act through which the New Birth flowed, why should we consider it differently today?

on The Other Hand, i do Not Find That This Should be The Focus of Teachings Either... it Was Something That Jesus Never Taught of, and if its as necessary as You Say it is- those Who Are Properly Following Christ Will Have no Doubts in Getting it Done.

The communion of Saints is the belief that all saints are members of Christ's body, and are in communion, whether alive or dead in Christ . . and as such, we can ask those who have passed and are in heaven to pray for us, to interceede for us before the throne of God . .

The Early Church believed this and practiced it . . there are thousands of prayers to martyrs who died and were buried in the catacombs for their intercessions . . . thousands . .

We have a powerful army of prayer warriors before the throne of God . . why should one remove oneself from them or distance oneself from them?

i Dont Really Understand Why There Needs to be an "interceede" between Christ and Myself... Surely There Were Martyrs prior to Christ's Time- but Christ Himself Prayed to The Heavenly Father... i Find it Very Uncomfy to Pray to Anyone That isnt The One And True God =S

Mass is the name given for the Catholic "church service' yes . . it is the name given by the Early Church to their service . . the Mass today follows the Mass of the Early Church . . the Liturgy of the Word, followed by the Liturgy of the Eucharist . .

Does the church service where you go follow the Mass of the Early Church?

I'm Not Quite Sure About The Liturgy's of The Word And Eucharist. One Thing That i DO Notice, is a Lack of Zeal in The Church Today. I'm Not Only Blaming Catholics- i'm Blaming Every Other Denomination out There as well... when Christ Was on This Earth, and one of His Sheep Was Missing, he didnt Merely say, "OH no! A sheep is missing! Let us... PRAY for that sheep and hope for the best" he Actually went out and did Something About it. the "church" i Attend is Very Active... we all regularily go Downtown to Feed Homeless People, Pray For Them- and ask i They need advise, on how to get Their life in Shape, discard Their Addictions, and receive Government Help... we All Write Letters to People in Power, in Other Countries... Asking to Change laws which persecute Christians Overseas.... we goto Nursing Homes, and Visit With The Elderly, and Hold Bible Studies There... we Always Evanglise, and we're Always inviting new People to Study The Bible With us.... and we do Our Best to Stay involved With Mission Organizations... i Find This Much More Essential Than a Ritual of "liturgies"

I explained about the Sacraments above . . but basically there are 7 in the Catholic Church

Baptism
Confirmation (the gifting of the Holy Spirit in fullness)
Eucharist (partaking of the body and blood of Christ)
Marriage
Holy Orders
Penance (confession/reconcilliation)
Extreme unction (anointing of the sick)

here is a very detailed treatment of sacraments in the Catholic Church:

http://www.stcecelia.com/Nav%20Pages/7sacraments/Main%20Page.htm

i Have Not Had Time to Check This out Yet :-S i am Sorry, Busy Busy Day...... i Noticed Marriage Was Listed Above. Why Are Priests Not Allowed to Marry? Dont get me Wrong, if one is Convicted NOT to marry, i Think its a Beautiful Thing- to Fast That Way... but: What if a Priest Does Want Marriage? he is Unfit For Priesthood?

Thus, when a Catholic partakes in communion, they are actually and truly receiving the body (flesh) and blood of Christ, not mere symbols respresenting his body and blood . . but partaking of his body and blood as he said we were . .

i am Personally Convicted to Not Drink Any Alcohal. Not Because im Anal, i Just Come From a Family of Alcahlics... and it Scares me Very Much. i wouldnt be Completely Taking a Part in Communion if This Were The Case? or Would i With "grapejuice"? (although: That Doesnt Follow Tradition Quite as Closely)

Communion in Protestant Churches is usually seen as symbolic, and those who would have it be the Real Presence do not have the Real Presence as they co not have preists ordained in valid succession from the Apostles . .

Is Symbolism all That Bad... Really?

The Early Church had the Real Presence of Jesus on their altars . . and this, of them all, may be, no, is, the most important and biggest test as to determining where the true Church is today . .

Does one's Church have the Eucharsit Real Presence of Christ consecrated at the hands of a priest ordained in valid Apostlic Succession?

my idea of a Church is Simply a Group of Christ's Followers. i Attended a mission Conference over New years, and Felt ... i Guess You Would Say "The Real Presence" Very Very Strongly. i Also Feel Christ's Presence Strongly at The Danforth Chapel...

Again: Thanks For Hearing me Out. Thanks For Not Taking The Things i Ask in a Bad Way, i am Just Curious Thats all...i Have no Negative intentions for This discussion....

Hope to Hear From you Soon!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hey Thanks For Taking The Time to Type all That Out, i Appreciate it!



hehehe, The Secrets i do Share- i DO Trust With my Friends. i Think its a Very Humble Habit- to humiliate Yourself in Front of Others; and Ask For help... and even repenting to Those you Sinned Against.

as Christians, i Believe its Our Responsibility to Bear Each Other's Problems, and Help out as Best as You Can... i am Very Thankful to Have Friends Who Are Open and Honest With me: together we all grow stronger in Christ.



i Agree, Confessng Your Sins to an authority Figure is a Good Idea. people Who Devote Their Life to The Church have spent enough Time in The Word to Properly Give You excellent advise. But! i Dont Think Confession Should be Limited to JUST That.



Didnt Christ Give us ALL The Power to Forgive Sins? Even in His Holy Prayer, we Say "...and forgive those sinned against us..."

NO!! He did NOT!!

The Our Father is a prayer to God and in it we ask GOD to forgive OUR sins in the same way we forgive others . .

For us to forgive others here in this context is to forgive them of the debt they owe US . . but only those to whom God gave the power to forgive sins like Christ can forgive debts owed to GOD.

That is the difference, and it is VERY signficant!

This Was a Little Vague for me :S Are You Saying That my repentance is "imperfect" Because an IMPERFECT Priest Didnt Forgive me?

No . . repentance that is imperfect is imprefect because of OUR motivations . . are we genuinely sorry, or are we only sorry becuase of what it might cost us if we are not . .

The imperfectness of a priest does not enter into it in the least . . because when you go to a priest, you are going to GOD . . this is very hard to explian, but I have "seen" the reality of this . .

But what is key here is how the 1st Christians viewed baptism . . if they viewed it as a necessity, an act through which the New Birth flowed, why should we consider it differently today?

on The Other Hand, i do Not Find That This Should be The Focus of Teachings Either... it Was Something That Jesus Never Taught of, and if its as necessary as You Say it is- those Who Are Properly Following Christ Will Have no Doubts in Getting it Done.

Well, here you disagree then with the Early Church . . on what basis would anyone be justified in doing so? And Jesus did teach on it very clearly . .we find this in his dialogue with Nicodemus.

i Dont Really Understand Why There Needs to be an "interceede" between Christ and Myself... Surely There Were Martyrs prior to Christ's Time- but Christ Himself Prayed to The Heavenly Father... i Find it Very Uncomfy to Pray to Anyone That isnt The One And True God =S

Let me ask you this then . . do you ask others to pray for you?

That is asking them to interceed for you!

What is different between asking others to pray for you and aksing saints who are before the very throne of God to do so?

The whole idea of prayer is different to a Protestant than it is to a Catholic.

To a Protestant, prayer is intimately linked to worship due to God alone

To a Catholic, prayer is merely asking someone foir something as in its old English usage . .

So where the idea of "praying" to a saint to ask them to pray for you the same way you would ask your friend to pray for you is something hard to accept, it never-the -les is no different . .

Thsi was the hardest thing for me to come to terms with when I was seeking the truth about this matter . . and it was after much study, that I finally realized that I understood it intellectually, but could not accept it in faith, and it was at that point I asked God and He revealed the reality of the Communion of Saints to me, and my Christian walk has never been the same . . There is a completeness, a wholeness I never, ever experienced before, and have had many profound experiences of God's presence in my life . .

I'm Not Quite Sure About The Liturgy's of The Word And Eucharist. One Thing That i DO Notice, is a Lack of Zeal in The Church Today. I'm Not Only Blaming Catholics- i'm Blaming Every Other Denomination out There as well... when Christ Was on This Earth, and one of His Sheep Was Missing, he didnt Merely say, "OH no! A sheep is missing! Let us... PRAY for that sheep and hope for the best" he Actually went out and did Something About it. the "church" i Attend is Very Active... we all regularily go Downtown to Feed Homeless People, Pray For Them- and ask i They need advise, on how to get Their life in Shape, discard Their Addictions, and receive Government Help... we All Write Letters to People in Power, in Other Countries... Asking to Change laws which persecute Christians Overseas.... we goto Nursing Homes, and Visit With The Elderly, and Hold Bible Studies There... we Always Evanglise, and we're Always inviting new People to Study The Bible With us.... and we do Our Best to Stay involved With Mission Organizations... i Find This Much More Essential Than a Ritual of "liturgies"

And you have found the extreme value of what James said . . faith without works is deed ..

But don't misinterpret a lack of emotionalism for a lack of zeal . .

The Catholic Church is one of the most prolific when it comes to social action, meeting the needs of the people around us . . there are so many avenues available within the Catholic Church that there is never a shortage of ways for individuals to reach out . .

But it is not the individual per-se that is called to reach out, but the BODY as a WHOLE who is called to reach out in Love to our neighbors . .

There is a deep abiding love for those around them within the Catholic Church, and they do not make it something flamboyant to be seen by all . .

Still waters run deep . .

Just as the Catholic Church does not make a public spectacle of the abundance of miraculous happenings in it . .

i Have Not Had Time to Check This out Yet :-S i am Sorry, Busy Busy Day...... i Noticed Marriage Was Listed Above. Why Are Priests Not Allowed to Marry? Dont get me Wrong, if one is Convicted NOT to marry, i Think its a Beautiful Thing- to Fast That Way... but: What if a Priest Does Want Marriage? he is Unfit For Priesthood?

The Church, through Peter first and then the Apostles, were given the power to bidn and loose .. this is rabbinical binding and looseing, where the religious authority has the power to bind certain practices on the faithful and loose them . . so the Church has decided the interests of the flock are best served by priests who are celibate and not torn between their duties as priest and those as husband and father . .

The Orthodox do not have this restriction for priests, but do for their Bishops .. and I can tell you from watching first hand how very hard it is to be a priest and husband and father (a close relative is a married priest) I think the Catholic church is wise in its decision . . and it is one the Catholic Church can change and make exceptions to., which it does now and then as the need and circumstances dictate . .

i am Personally Convicted to Not Drink Any Alcohal. Not Because im Anal, i Just Come From a Family of Alcahlics... and it Scares me Very Much. i wouldnt be Completely Taking a Part in Communion if This Were The Case? or Would i With "grapejuice"? (although: That Doesnt Follow Tradition Quite as Closely)

The Catholic Church uses wine, and believes that wine is required . . but the Catholic Church also teaches that you can receive the full boody and blood of Jesus by partaking in just one or the other . .either the host (bread) or the cup . . so nothing to worry about there.

Is Symbolism all That Bad... Really?

No, not at all, it can be very rich in meaning and significance .

Buit why settle for just symbolism when you can partake of the reality which your communion merely symbolizes? Why receive less and not more?

my idea of a Church is Simply a Group of Christ's Followers. i Attended a mission Conference over New years, and Felt ... i Guess You Would Say "The Real Presence" Very Very Strongly. i Also Feel Christ's Presence Strongly at The Danforth Chapel...

You can feel Christ's presence very strongly in a spiritual way, so real, so profound .. and I have as a Protestant, no question about it .

But there is something profoundly different in experiencing the presence of Christ Really present in the Eucharist . I cannot explain it well .. but it is more solid, more materially real. . .

Again: Thanks For Hearing me Out. Thanks For Not Taking The Things i Ask in a Bad Way, i am Just Curious Thats all...i Have no Negative intentions for This discussion....

Hope to Hear From you Soon!

You are most welcome and I hope that my input has helped you better to understand the Catholic Faith . .

If you have more questions, please feel free to ask!


Peace in Him!

 

[feo]

No . . repentance that is imperfect is imprefect because of OUR motivations . . are we genuinely sorry, or are we only sorry becuase of what it might cost us if we are not . .

The imperfectness of a priest does not enter into it in the least . . because when you go to a priest, you are going to GOD . . this is very hard to explian, but I have "seen" the reality of this . .

if we Are Genuinely Sorry, it is Still Possible Our Repentance is Imperfect? I'm Not 100% Sure i Completely Understand This Not Your Fault, i Assure You- i'm Just a Bit Slow. Would it be Possible to Provide an Example or Two For Each?

Well, here you disagree then with the Early Church . . on what basis would anyone be justified in doing so? And Jesus did teach on it very clearly . .we find this in his dialogue with Nicodemus.

i Opened up John Outta Curiosity, Not Looking For Anything Specific- And Found The Exact Conversation You Talked About! Kinda Ironic huh? But Yes, That Makes Sense.

Let me ask you this then . . do you ask others to pray for you?

That is asking them to interceed for you!

What is different between asking others to pray for you and aksing saints who are before the very throne of God to do so?

The whole idea of prayer is different to a Protestant than it is to a Catholic.

To a Protestant, prayer is intimately linked to worship due to God alone

To a Catholic, prayer is merely asking someone foir something as in its old English usage . .

So where the idea of "praying" to a saint to ask them to pray for you the same way you would ask your friend to pray for you is something hard to accept, it never-the -les is no different . .

Thsi was the hardest thing for me to come to terms with when I was seeking the truth about this matter . . and it was after much study, that I finally realized that I understood it intellectually, but could not accept it in faith, and it was at that point I asked God and He revealed the reality of the Communion of Saints to me, and my Christian walk has never been the same . . There is a completeness, a wholeness I never, ever experienced before, and have had many profound experiences of God's presence in my life . .

And This is Also One of The More Difficult Things For me to Come to Terms With. it Doesnt Feel Very Comfy to me, to Pray to a Saint- and is This Supported Biblically?

And you have found the extreme value of what James said . . faith without works is deed ..

But don't misinterpret a lack of emotionalism for a lack of zeal . .

The Catholic Church is one of the most prolific when it comes to social action, meeting the needs of the people around us . . there are so many avenues available within the Catholic Church that there is never a shortage of ways for individuals to reach out . .

But it is not the individual per-se that is called to reach out, but the BODY as a WHOLE who is called to reach out in Love to our neighbors . .

There is a deep abiding love for those around them within the Catholic Church, and they do not make it something flamboyant to be seen by all . .

Still waters run deep . .

Just as the Catholic Church does not make a public spectacle of the abundance of miraculous happenings in it . .

Wasnt Mother Theresa Catholic? or no?
regardless, You Have any Good Sources About Her?
i'm Not Sure of The Works She Has Done, and i Think i Remember Hearing She Was Catholic. hmmm...

The Church, through Peter first and then the Apostles, were given the power to bidn and loose .. this is rabbinical binding and looseing, where the religious authority has the power to bind certain practices on the faithful and loose them . . so the Church has decided the interests of the flock are best served by priests who are celibate and not torn between their duties as priest and those as husband and father . .

The Orthodox do not have this restriction for priests, but do for their Bishops .. and I can tell you from watching first hand how very hard it is to be a priest and husband and father (a close relative is a married priest) I think the Catholic church is wise in its decision . . and it is one the Catholic Church can change and make exceptions to., which it does now and then as the need and circumstances dictate . .

See, i Just Dont See it That Way i Think its Very Possible to Have a Family and still be a Priest... i Think Marriage is Beautiful, From God- and is Something That Shouldnt be Taken Away From Anyone.

is There Any Scripture Supporting a Priests Celibacy? I'm Not Quite Sure if There is or not.

Also, on Another Note- growing up in The Catholic Church, i Always Remember Praying and Reading... in King-James English. is Using another Translation Discouraged in The Catholic Church?

Why Should Birth Control be Frowned upon Between a married Couple? in The Catholic Church, it Always appeared to me that... Sex Was only Done in The Missionary Position- and it Was meant to Create, and Nothing More. is This Notion True, or Was i Just Taught Wrongly? i Think sex WAS Meant to Create- but Also i Believe The Pleasure Elements Are Not.. "bad"- between a married Couple. and i Think if The Couple Wants to Use Birth Control, being They're Married... i dont See This as a Bad Thing.

This has Probably been covered in another Post. i'll Try to read Them After i finish Posting This one.

One Thing i do Enjoy About my "church" is we Also Worship in Different Ways- often doing so in Culturally different Settings. We'll Sing One Song in Old english, Another in Spanish- and another in a native American Languege...

i Believe God Created Unique Cultures For a Reason, and its Encouraging to Worship in Different Ways. if i Were to Join a Catholic Church, This Element Would be Greatly missed. What Are Your Thoughts on This?

i Remember in Another Post, Someone Sent me a Link Somewhere... (i Tried Searching For it and Couldnt Find it! grr) Talking About "unity" Among Christians. and Catholic'ism Would Solve That.

i Dont See The Christian Groups around me "divided" even Though There Are Different Denominations. For Example, Every Friday we All Get Together and Pray on Campus... on Hayden Lawn. students From a Baptist Church Join us, as well as a Chinese Church- as well as a Few Catholics. i See a Great Sense of Unity, and Sharing Christs Love: Without us all belonging to The Same Denomination.

right Now i'm Just not... Completely Convinced That All The Different Churches.... are a "house divided among itself"

anyway, thereselittleflower, i'm Looking Forward to Your Reply. if Anyone Else Wants to Correct me on Things im Wrong- go Right ahead! hope You Have a Great Night!

 

[thereselittleflower]

if we Are Genuinely Sorry, it is Still Possible Our Repentance is Imperfect? I'm Not 100% Sure i Completely Understand This Not Your Fault, i Assure You- i'm Just a Bit Slow. Would it be Possible to Provide an Example or Two For Each?

Ok - I will try . .



Let's say I steal something from a friend . . and a few days go by and it starts to bother me, and I start to really wish I hadn't done it . . a few more days go by and I have to undo what I did because my conscience won't give me rest . . so I return the item to my friend . . but I still need to confess my sin to God . .

Now, there are 2 possibilities here . .

One is, I go to the priest, and confess my sin . . I am really sorry I did this, but my motivation is to get this sin off of me so it won't keep me from going to heaven or send me to hell . . in essence I am afraid of what will happen to me if I don't confess . .

The other is I go to the priest, and confess my sin . . I am really sorry, but this time, I have no thought whatsoever for myself, I have no fear over where I might go for having done this sin, I am absorbed with the realization that what I did deeply offended God and for that I have deep remorse, for I experience deep, deep sadness that I hurt God . .

One is "me" oriented in regards to my motiviation, the other is "God" oriented . .

The first is an imperfect act of contrition, and it is here that the danger lies of not being truly soory and repentant, but for which you wish to be, you want to be but your motives aren't entirely right . . The beauty of this is it is in this situation when a priest absolves you of your sins, you can trust that you are really forgiven without worrying that your contrition wasn't perfect . . as hard as we try to make our contrition perfect, it most the times is not . .

I firmly believe a perfect act of contrition is a gift from God . .

I experienced this once in my life, as a young teenager when I had my conversion experience . .I was alone in my room at night just going to bed . . and as soon as I laid down my head on my pillow, God poured a spot light onto my soul and I could see, in a mental vision, all these horrible black spots all over . . I had no thought for myself, no thought of heaven or hell, I was consumed with the fact that these sins hurt God . . and I experienced the deepest repetance and remorse that one can imagine - I began to weep and sob with such sorrow I cannot describe it. . one at a time, or in small cluster, these spots were presented to me . . and all I could do was sob, God, forgive me . .and they were taken away . .and more took their place . . and each time, all I could say was God forgive me . . the tears I shed that night, the pain in my heart for having committed these sins was almost unbearable . .and this went on for hours . . finally I cried myself to sleep and the next moring I could see my soul .. it was completel white . . all the black spots were gone . .

I have not had such a dramatic experience since when it comes to confession, or one so clearly an act of perfect contrition .. it was a gift from God . . I thought it might help . .


[qutoe]
i Opened up John Outta Curiosity, Not Looking For Anything Specific- And Found The Exact Conversation You Talked About! Kinda Ironic huh? But Yes, That Makes Sense. [/quote]

And This is Also One of The More Difficult Things For me to Come to Terms With. it Doesnt Feel Very Comfy to me, to Pray to a Saint- and is This Supported Biblically?

I know, I know, I know . . it was my biggest hurdle . . it did not feel comfortable to me at all . . so I completely understand . . but believe me, if you are willing to allow God to show you, He will! for me, it took many months of struggling with it until I turne to God and asked Him if it was Him, if it was really Him . . He answered bigtime

I think this has more to do with our cultural conditioning, our pushing ourselves away from the "dead' . . and fearing occultism . .

I was into the occult and was going to be a white witch before I had my conversion experience as a teeenager . . so I am really sensitive to anything that has a hint of occultism to it, and my conditioning had predisposed me to be very concerned that I would be entering grave error if I pursued this . .

But God is gentle and merciful, and will take us by the hand and patiently lead us to the fullness of truth . .

I can tell you now that I know my fears were unfounded, and it has been incredible to be aware of the reality of the communion of saints . . This is something incredibly special . . . a ver special gift God has given us to help us . .the personal prayers of those who are before His throne, and the prayers of the Mother of our Lord . .

This is something that helped me, and perhaps it will help you . .

Here on earth, we are to be about our Master's business . .we are to follow in His footsteps and be doing what He does . . .

In heaven, is this less true? Isn't it actually MORE True??

The scriptures tell us that Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us . .

Do you think that when we get to heaven we will do less there than our Lord is doing? If He is interceding, won't we be inreceding as well? Won't we even more perfectly be doing what our Lord does?



Ask God to show you . . look at the prayers of the Rosary . . in fact, come into the Chapel here at OBOB and join us in the parts of the Rosary you can do right now . . they consist of the Our Father, the Glory Be, the Hail Mary (he first half of which is entirely scripture and the second half of which is a prayer asking her intercession) the Jesus prayer asking for forgiveness There will probably be prayer there you would have difficulty with right now, but God is happy with our baby steps, and understanding come in time . .

Wasnt Mother Theresa Catholic? or no?
regardless, You Have any Good Sources About Her?
i'm Not Sure of The Works She Has Done, and i Think i Remember Hearing She Was Catholic. hmmm...

Yes, she was a Catholic . . the Church is moving towards declaring her a saint . . There are several good works about her life, and some she wrote . . I believe one is called A Simple Life . .

Someone though you might really want to read about is Padre Pio . . now Saint Pio . . WOW!

See, i Just Dont See it That Way i Think its Very Possible to Have a Family and still be a Priest... i Think Marriage is Beautiful, From God- and is Something That Shouldnt be Taken Away From Anyone.

is There Any Scripture Supporting a Priests Celibacy? I'm Not Quite Sure if There is or not.

Actually, yes, Paul said it was somthing to be desired . . Proud2bCatholic posted something form the Theology of teh body regarding marriage, celibacy and priest and the connection with the heavenly union . .I will try to find the quote and post here for you too . .

Here is the bible passage that supports celibacy . .

1Co 7:1​

​

Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.


1Co 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

1Co 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

1Co 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.


​

The Eastern Rite Churches do allow their priests to marry . .but not their bishops . . it is a matter of Church jurisdiction, and priests in the Catholic Church understand this before they become priests . . to be celibate is a gift from God . .

Also, on Another Note- growing up in The Catholic Church, i Always Remember Praying and Reading... in King-James English. is Using another Translation Discouraged in The Catholic Church?

No, not at all . . you can read pretty much any translation you like . .there are some that the Church would be worreid about though as they are poor translations, but the maine ones usually are OK . . many times I have heard Carl keating express it this way . . the best translation is the one you read . .

The Church does favor certain translations over others, the RSV is favored along with the New American Bible, the Douay Rheims bible . .

What is important though is to have the COMPLETE bible .. one that has all the books canonized by the early Church. . the 7 that Luther took out . . and it is best to have them inserted into their proper places in the Old Testament rather than in an appendix or separate part of the bible . . so the only way to do this is to purchase a Catholic Edition of a translation . .

Why Should Birth Control be Frowned upon Between a married Couple? in The Catholic Church, it Always appeared to me that... Sex Was only Done in The Missionary Position- and it Was meant to Create, and Nothing More. is This Notion True, or Was i Just Taught Wrongly? i Think sex WAS Meant to Create- but Also i Believe The Pleasure Elements Are Not.. "bad"- between a married Couple. and i Think if The Couple Wants to Use Birth Control, being They're Married... i dont See This as a Bad Thing.

This is a big topic, fraught with misunderstndings and misconceptions . .

I know I had to reshape my thougts on some of these things, I didn't have a problem with contracpetion, but for some reason, I never felt right about using it myself . . now years later, I begin to understand why . .

Today, the marriage relationship focuses on the couple and thier pleasure . . and pleasure is good and the Church teaches that pleasure in sexual intimacy is good! The Church, however teaches that to have sexual intimacy for pleasure first, as a primary goal, unbalances the purpose of marraige and sex by making what was a gift the purpose . .

The reason for marriage is to creat life . . God is Creator . . He made us in His image . . He made us with the ability to create in OUR image, to become one flesh truly in a new creation of life . .

God is a Trinity . .3 in one . . God as Trinity is a Family . . for man to fully realize himself in God, God gave man a Trinity .. the family . .

If the family is open to new life, it becomes a trinity and begins to realize its fulfillment as a reflection of the Trinity, God as Family . .

If a family, a husband and wife, is using contraception, they are closed off to the possibility of life, and closed off to realizing their fullfilment as a trinity in the image of God, the Trinity . . they put their own needs ahead of God's purpose for creating the family in the image of the Trinity.

The use of contraception, though it seems to the mind to be logical in today's world is actually fraught with danger . .

ALL Christian denominations used to stand against contraception . . all Christian denomiations, one by one, gave into using it first in certain situations, then in all situations . . everyone that is, except the Catholic Church

The Catholic Church predicted that if contraception were to become legal, that abortion would follow, and euthanasia (right to die), etc . . that a demeaning of life would ensue . . and that is what we have seen .a hundred years later . . the prediction became true . .When I learned about this, I was shocked, and it was with an eiree finality that I realized this was all true . .

Contraceptives do not just prevent conception . . the pill now also prevents implantation, thus making it an abortifant . . so, many, many women taking the pill are actually keeping the babies they have already conceived from implanting in their womb, causing an abortion . .

This issue is no so easy as it seems on the surface. . once you start digging into the Church's position and why, you learn things you never knew before and you are shocked at some of what you learn . .

i would ask that you keep an open mind about this and not simply react . . and not reject this stance of the Church without first really understanding it .


As far as sexual positions go . . there is no one position . . though certain ones promote conception in certain people . .

This has Probably been covered in another Post. i'll Try to read Them After i finish Posting This one.

I have to break this post up . . so here come part II !


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Here is the rest of my post

One Thing i do Enjoy About my "church" is we Also Worship in Different Ways- often doing so in Culturally different Settings. We'll Sing One Song in Old english, Another in Spanish- and another in a native American Languege...

i Believe God Created Unique Cultures For a Reason, and its Encouraging to Worship in Different Ways. if i Were to Join a Catholic Church, This Element Would be Greatly missed. What Are Your Thoughts on This?

i understand what you are saying. . I really, really enjoyed the worship service of the church we had been going to for a few years . . But I would say this . .

As much as I enjoyed the dynamic and spiritual worship of my former Church, and others I had been a part of over the years, with their uniqueness and diversity (the last one I attended was bilingual . )

But I can say this . . whatever joy and spiritual blessings you receive from the diversity of worship you experience now . . the reality of Jesus in the Eucharist outshines it all . . I will say this . .as deep as the moves of the Spirit were in the churches I attended . .and they at the time, seemed very deep, they were (and it is hard to find the right word to convey what I mean . this word is inadequate) superficial in comparison with the reality of the Mass . .

My olderst daughter said it really well when I asked her . . I asked her what was different about the Catholic church and the one we attended before . .

She said that the Mass was deeper . .. the other was shallow in comparison . . She had really understood the difference without me telling her . .

i Remember in Another Post, Someone Sent me a Link Somewhere... (i Tried Searching For it and Couldnt Find it! grr) Talking About "unity" Among Christians. and Catholic'ism Would Solve That.

i Dont See The Christian Groups around me "divided" even Though There Are Different Denominations. For Example, Every Friday we All Get Together and Pray on Campus... on Hayden Lawn. students From a Baptist Church Join us, as well as a Chinese Church- as well as a Few Catholics. i See a Great Sense of Unity, and Sharing Christs Love: Without us all belonging to The Same Denomination.

There are different kinds of unity and differen kinds of division . .

Where you can all get together and worship together, you do experience unity . . but what divides is doctrine . . how is one saved? Is one always saved or can you loose your salvation? These are some very fundamental questoins that the differnt groups have different answers to . . .

We believe that true unity is not only one where you experience tht unity in worship, but unity in the fullness of the faith in Christ . .

I will try to share what I am experiencing . .

In the 30 years as a Protestant, I felt the unity you speak of . . it seemed to me like we were knit together . .but if you asked me to visualize this, I would have visualized a loose knit - lilke someone had knitted wit large needles so the "link" were large, which allowed for movement, flexibility . .

What I have experienced in the Catholic Church in the last month has been something quite different !

I have had this experience at various times, undexpectedly, and in various situations . . but each time it was very clear and certain . .

What was a loose knit in Protestantism has given way to a close, tight "knit" in Catholicism . . I was sitting in a Church history class, and I felt so strongly that we were being all held tightly together, like stones in a building that is built on a solid firm foundation, with a strong strudy frame .. and we were held so tightly together that we were snug and free form experieincing even the slightest movement, unshakable, supporting and helping each other . . it felt so secure, so real . . and the foundations felt llike they went down into the deep places of the earth, so solid unshakable . .

Later I found the passage in the New Testament that speaks of this:

(Eph 4:16)


​

​

From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


​

I suddenly realize that "that was it!" "COMPACTED" . . I had never experienced what that meant before. . now it was coming unbidden to me showing me the truth of this passage . . compacted . .really compacted, truly compacted!


The reality of this far supasses the unity I had experienced before . . I can't begin to really speak of it and convey the reality of it very well. . .

right Now i'm Just not... Completely Convinced That All The Different Churches.... are a "house divided among itself"

anyway, thereselittleflower, i'm Looking Forward to Your Reply. if Anyone Else Wants to Correct me on Things im Wrong- go Right ahead! hope You Have a Great Night!

well, I hope what I shared has helped and given you a real and better sense of what it means to be Catholic . . the unity issue, I wish I could explain what I mean better . . it is so profound . .

There is a lot here . . I know you will have more questions .. and I am happy to help as I know others here are too!

Please let me know what you think and what you feel your heart being drawn to if you wouldl ike to share . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Bastoune]

Here is my main issue I suppose, and I reckon it will be somewhat unpopular here. It's not that I think that my interpretation of Scripture is superior to that of the Church. I am more than willing to submit that if the beliefs you have been stating in here are good for you, then you should keep them. What I am trying to say is that I have different ideas about God and the Bible, and they are good for me. .

Well I guess that ultimately makes the truth relative to each person's "feelings" or "warm fuzzy." That's not scriptural. I may believe I am "good" or "sinless" or there is no Hell. God doesn't change. What you describe is a form of idolatry, because you are making God into your own image.

Eph. 4 and 1 Cor. 12 clearly show "not all are teachers." So not everyone has that charism.

From www.scripturecatholic.com

Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles' special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves.

Acts 15:6; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ.

1 Cor. 5:3-5; 1 Tim. 1:20; Gal 1:8; Matt 18:17 - shows the authority of the elders to excommunicate / anathemize ("deliver to satan").

2 Cor. 2:17 - Paul says the elders are not just random peddlers of God's word. They are actually commissioned by God.

2 Cor. 5:20 - we are "ambassadors" for Christ. This means that the apostles and their successors share an actual participation in Christ's mission, which includes healing, forgiving sins, and confecting the sacraments.

2 Cor. 10:8 - Paul acknowledges his authority over God's people which the Lord gave to build up the Church.

1 Thess. 5:12-13 - Paul charges the members of the Church to respect those who have authority over them.

2 Thess. 3:14 - Paul says if a person does not obey what he has provided in his letter, have nothing to do with him.

1 Tim. 5:17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to honor the appointed elders of the Church.

Titus 2:15 - Paul charges Timothy to exhort and reprove with all authority, which he receive by the laying on of hands.

Heb. 13:7,17 - Paul charges the members of the Church to remember and obey their leaders who have authority over their souls.

1 Peter 2:18 - Peter charges the servants to be submissive to their masters whether kind and gentle or overbearing.

1 Peter 5:5; Jude 8 - Peter and Jude charge the members of the Church to be subject to their elders.

2 Peter 2:10 - Peter warns the faithful about despising authority. He is referring to the apostolic authority granted to them by Christ.

3 John 9 - John points out that Diotrephes does not acknowledge John's apostolic authority and declares that this is evil.

Deut. 17:10-13 - the Lord commands His faithful Israel to obey the priests that He puts in charge, and do to all that they direct and instruct. The Lord warns that those who do not obey His priests shall die.

Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a "protestant" rebellion against God's chosen Moses, and Korah and his followers perished.

Sirach 7:29-30 - with all your soul fear the Lord and honor His priests, love your Maker and do not forsake His ministers. God is not threatened by the authority He gives His children! God, as our Loving Father, invites us to participate in His plan of redemption with His Son Jesus. Without authority in the Church, there is error, chaos and confusion.

 

[feo]

Howdy thereselittleflower! Sorry it Took me awhile to Respond to This Thread. Better Late Than Never, Right? First of all, Thanks For The Description of the The Two Types of "repentances"... i Guess i Wasnt Able to Distinguish The Difference... because Personally, i Dont Have a Lot of Experience With The.. "selfish" Form of Repentance. to be Quite Honest, i Could Care less About Heaven & Hell... if God Decides to Throw me in Hell,More Power to Him: because Thats Where i Belong. The Only Thing i Really Want to Embrace is a Physical Hug With my Savior; and Nothing More.

i've Been Hearing popular Christian Songs, discussing "what heaven will be like" and how GREAT it will be. while i DO Agree With These Songs (heaven will 0wn! no Doubt About That) i Sometimes Question The intentions of the Artists... i Believe our Purpose here on Earth is NOT to imagine What it'll be Like, but to instead ... do Our best, to make Earth- as it is now- as Close to Heaven as we Can. our Life Right Now is a Gift: and we Should be Doing all That we Can to live it abundantly (man How Many Cliches did i use in THAT sentence? hehe my bad)

i Actually Attended MASS for The First Time in *years* Yesterday, on Ash Wednesday... and even busted out the ashes on my Forehead For Once. You Should all be Proud of me ! i Thought it Was a beautiful Service... and Was Surprised to Hear ... More "modern" Songs being sung during Service. this doesnt Really bother me.. it Was Just Surprising. growing up Catholic, i Remember Oldschool Hymns.

One Thing i Did Notice... Was How Everything Always Follows The Same Pattern. i Love Leading Prayer Meetings, and One Thing That Helps my Group- when we Pray... to Keep The Holy Spirit alive, is to Mix Things up a Bit. i Sometimes Wish There Was Less structure to The Catholic Mass. Maybe my Generation is Too ADD?

I know, I know, I know . . it was my biggest hurdle . . it did not feel comfortable to me at all . . so I completely understand . . but believe me, if you are willing to allow God to show you, He will! for me, it took many months of struggling with it until I turne to God and asked Him if it was Him, if it was really Him . . He answered bigtime

is it Possible to be Catholic And not to Pray to The Saints? its Not so Much That i Think its a "bad" Thing, i Just Dont See a Biblical Need For it.

I think this has more to do with our cultural conditioning, our pushing ourselves away from the "dead' . . and fearing occultism . .

I was into the occult and was going to be a white witch before I had my conversion experience as a teeenager . . so I am really sensitive to anything that has a hint of occultism to it, and my conditioning had predisposed me to be very concerned that I would be entering grave error if I pursued this . .

i Think its Beautiful you Are a Catholic Now, i Applause You For Turning Away From The occultish Practises. i Think Theres Something About That.... which Draws us all towards it a Bit. i Think we're Prideful Human beings at Heart, and any "power" That we Demonstrate Thats Not From God... appeals to That. One Thing That Scares me About Being Catholic (and plz no flamings on this) is The "special Catholic bible". This Ties in With The occult, The Mormon Religion "adds" three Extra Books ontop of The Bible... That Say a Lot of Things That i do Not Agree With. and its Very Uncomfy.. to Have "extra books" in The Bible...? Maybe it Would be Possible For you to Give me Some Links, or Explain This to me in More Detail. i've Always Thought REV was Very Clear in Adding...

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will dd to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book

The scriptures tell us that Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us . .

Do you think that when we get to heaven we will do less there than our Lord is doing? If He is interceding, won't we be inreceding as well? Won't we even more perfectly be doing what our Lord does?

And i Have No Problem Asking Jesus to Intercede For me. its Just The Others... i Think: Where This all Stems From: is my View on Human Nature. i Think That us, Humans, Are The Scum of This Earth. i Think we're all Filthy Rotten Pieces of Flesh That Are Stained and Tinted of Sin which Was OUR Own Choice. i Think That With The Exception of Jesus, we're all Equally Scummy... and i Dont Like The idea of Having Someone Intercde "between" jesus and me.

Ask God to show you . . look at the prayers of the Rosary . . in fact, come into the Chapel here at OBOB and join us in the parts of the Rosary you can do right now . . they consist of the Our Father, the Glory Be, the Hail Mary (he first half of which is entirely scripture and the second half of which is a prayer asking her intercession) the Jesus prayer asking for forgiveness There will probably be prayer there you would have difficulty with right now, but God is happy with our baby steps, and understanding come in time . .

Amazingly, The "HAIL MARY!" Prayer is About The Only one i Remember... From Catholic School. besides The usual "our father" That.. uh, everyone Knows. i Use to Say it a Lot After my Grandfather Passed Away, to Make Him Happy (he Was a Devout Catholic) but Now its Kinda Lost its Meaning.

Here is the bible passage that supports celibacy . .

1Co 7:1​

​

Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.


1Co 7:7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

1Co 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

1Co 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.


​

The Eastern Rite Churches do allow their priests to marry . .but not their bishops . . it is a matter of Church jurisdiction, and priests in the Catholic Church understand this before they become priests . . to be celibate is a gift from God . .

These Are Great Passages: And i Think its Great That Certain People Want to Remain Celibate. But i Dont "see" This, on The Same Level i Think... i Dont See That Passage as Justification to Force Priests to Remain Unmarried.

Today, the marriage relationship focuses on the couple and thier pleasure . . and pleasure is good and the Church teaches that pleasure in sexual intimacy is good! The Church, however teaches that to have sexual intimacy for pleasure first, as a primary goal, unbalances the purpose of marraige and sex by making what was a gift the purpose . .

The reason for marriage is to creat life . . God is Creator . . He made us in His image . . He made us with the ability to create in OUR image, to become one flesh truly in a new creation of life . .

God is a Trinity . .3 in one . . God as Trinity is a Family . . for man to fully realize himself in God, God gave man a Trinity .. the family . .

If the family is open to new life, it becomes a trinity and begins to realize its fulfillment as a reflection of the Trinity, God as Family . .

If a family, a husband and wife, is using contraception, they are closed off to the possibility of life, and closed off to realizing their fullfilment as a trinity in the image of God, the Trinity . . they put their own needs ahead of God's purpose for creating the family in the image of the Trinity.

The use of contraception, though it seems to the mind to be logical in today's world is actually fraught with danger . .

i Agree: There Needs to be a Balence Between Pleasure, and The Purpose of Our... "creation" i Guess. But to Not Allow Contraceptive at all seems Like You're Just at The *OTHER* End of The Spectrum. i believe That if a Married Couple has two or Three Children... they're Not Ready for Another Child- but They want to go at it "safely" then so be it. i Think That because They Already Have Children, that There will be an Equal Balance betwene "pleasure and purpose" of sex.

The Catholic Church predicted that if contraception were to become legal, that abortion would follow, and euthanasia (right to die), etc . . that a demeaning of life would ensue . . and that is what we have seen .a hundred years later . . the prediction became true . .When I learned about this, I was shocked, and it was with an eiree finality that I realized this was all true . .

Contraceptives do not just prevent conception . . the pill now also prevents implantation, thus making it an abortifant . . so, many, many women taking the pill are actually keeping the babies they have already conceived from implanting in their womb, causing an abortion . .

i See a Big Difference... between Preventing Pregnancy, and Abortion. Preventing Conception, to me, is Not Murder- as For The "pill"- its Considered an Abortion?

As far as sexual positions go . . there is no one position . . though certain ones promote conception in certain people . .

so is Any "sexual position" That Does Not allow Procreation Considered a Sin?

 

[feo]

i understand what you are saying. . I really, really enjoyed the worship service of the church we had been going to for a few years . . But I would say this . .

As much as I enjoyed the dynamic and spiritual worship of my former Church, and others I had been a part of over the years, with their uniqueness and diversity (the last one I attended was bilingual . )

You See, This Plays a Very Important Part in my Worship. i Believe God Created all Different Cultures For a Reason, and my idea of heaven... is *all* of us Worshiping God in Our Own Ways. my idea of "unity" is all of us Worshipping TOGETHER in our own ways, without Feeling Self Conscience or as an outsider. i'm Not Implying That The Catholic Church Promotes... others as "outsiders" im Just saying, That others Can feel That way

But I can say this . . whatever joy and spiritual blessings you receive from the diversity of worship you experience now . . the reality of Jesus in the Eucharist outshines it all . . I will say this . .as deep as the moves of the Spirit were in the churches I attended . .and they at the time, seemed very deep, they were (and it is hard to find the right word to convey what I mean . this word is inadequate) superficial in comparison with the reality of the Mass . .

i Know This sounds Horrible, But Currently in my Religous Walk... The Joy of having a Diverse Tradition: Everything Being Done in Different Ways- but For The Same Goal... outshines The Eucharist. as Much as i Hate to Admit This, communion Taken From a Protestant church Feels no Different From a Catholic Church... i Guess my Simple Mind is "just as happy" With Symbolism?

My olderst daughter said it really well when I asked her . . I asked her what was different about the Catholic church and the one we attended before . .

She said that the Mass was deeper . .. the other was shallow in comparison . . She had really understood the difference without me telling her . .

And Again: i Dont Know if i Agree With This... From The Catholic services here in Arizona. i Dont Find The masses, that are Being Held here- very Deep. i Love Manuscript Study- and i Love using a Variety of Translations, looking up Greek Meanings- studying different Commentaries, and focusing on Small Passages in Great Detail. the mass That i Attended...seem'ed Very "pre-digested" for my Own Taste, and it did Not Feel Very "deep" to me.

There are different kinds of unity and differen kinds of division . .

Where you can all get together and worship together, you do experience unity . . but what divides is doctrine . . how is one saved? Is one always saved or can you loose your salvation? These are some very fundamental questoins that the differnt groups have different answers to . . .

Can Salvation be Lost? grrr i Gotta goto bible study Now. so im Not Gonna Have Time to Finish This....

Let me Finish This Later on Tonight or Tomorrow! Big Hugz, thereselittleflower! Take Care

jef.