Hellenization of Jesus

[CallofChrist]

Original message of Yeshua

What is that original message?

 

[James_Lai]

What is that original message?

It’s very hard to reconstruct the historical Yeshua. It seems He was one of Jewish apocalyptic prophets who believed that the Kingdom was at hand, i.e. would come while some of His adult contemporaries are alive. Within a few decades that is. He preached an extremely ascetic and highly moral lifestyle in anticipation of this global event. All of this if we assume historicity of Yeshua in the first place and that the four canonical gospels were indeed to some degree based on the oral traditions of His sayings.

 

[James_Lai]

Curious to know the difference. Thanks for sharing.

The original Jesus teaching is hard to reconstruct based on the sources we have. However, very vaguely He’s a Jewish apocalyptic prophet who preached the Kingdom is arriving very soon and that people are to get rid of their earthly possessions and to live a highly moral life in preparation to this global event.

 

[James_Lai]

I only have the time to learn one ancient language. Which one?
I am thinking Aramaic (Galilean). This is what Jesus spoke to the common people around Him, few if any knew Greek. Hebrew of course is another option.
But I sometimes wonder of what value studying in depth the Greek versions and word studies are if in fact the Lord did not speak to the common people in this language. Perhaps the epistles were originally written in Greek? I even question that.

The original sayings of Yeshua, if they were ever written down, have been lost forever… Or who knows, maybe there is a manuscript yet to be discovered?

 

[com7fy8]

Hellenization wasn’t part of the plan, it’s pretty obvious.

Jesus is not conceited. Yes, He was born into Jewish culture, but Jesus is God's own Son, with His true identity so more and better than what He could get from Jewish culture. And He intended to reach Gentiles; therefore, we have writings in other than Hebrew.

I offer that the message of the Gospels is a match with the theology of the epistles . . . of Paul and James and Jude and John and Peter. The spiritual meaning, the love meaning, matches.

It seems He was an apocalyptic prophets who believed that the Kingdom was at hand, i.e. would come while some of His adult contemporaries are alive.

The main kingdom Jesus talked about is > "within you" > Luke 17:20-21. And in our epistles we have various things about having the kingdom of God within us.

But yes there will be the kingdom of God on the new earth, not only within us but ruling all which is around us.

 

[James_Lai]

I forget the exact details now, but there is textual evidence that John was originally written in Aramaic, not Greek.

The translation into Greek came later, because it was the most common language spoken in the Roman world, next to Latin.

The term "Christ", is a direct translation of "Messiah", both terms mean "anointed one", which is another way of saying "consecrated" or "king". The practice of consecrating a king in Israel included pouring "anointing oil" on their head.

Throughout the Old Testament, all the kings were "Messiahs", or "Christs", the term "Christ" is used in place of the Hebrew word Messiah in the Greek Septuagint Old Testament texts (the oldest ones we have besides the Dead Sea fragments), not just for Jesus (or Yeshua if you prefer).

• “He gives his king great victories; he shows unfailing love to his anointed (Messiah/Christos), to David and to his descendants forever” – Psalm 18:50
• “My heart is stirred by a noble theme as I recite my verses for the king… You are the most excellent of men and your lips have been anointed (Messiah/Christos) with grace, since God has blessed you forever… Your throne, O God/God is your throne, forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of exultation“. – Psalm 45:1-2, 6-7

Jesus was the "king of the Jews", because he was "Christened", aka "Messiahed" aka, "anointed". It all means the same thing. So really the argument made a false dichotomy.

I do think it's "possible" (big emphasis) parts of John's Gospel were later corrupted by Greek concepts however, but that's a very deep subject to get into. But in short, there are Hebrew copies of John dating from the 15th century, which are thought to be from a separate manuscript tradition to the other Greek and Latin texts, in which at John 1, it calls Jesus the "Son" as opposed to the "logos", and if anyone is familiar with Greek thought, Philo, etc, then they'll know how that impacts the theology of "the Word".

Not to say that the "logos" isn't the original word used of course, as it has many uses, and isn't just a Greek philosophical term.


But putting all that aside. Even if we stick with just Mark, Matthew and Luke, we still get the same story and main teachings. Jesus is the Son of God who came and died for our sins. This is a universal teaching which is foretold in the Tanakh, and in the earliest Gospel books, long before John's was written.

"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, spoke a blessing and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, saying, ‘Take and eat; this is my body, given for you; do this in remembrance of me’. Then he took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, ‘Take this and divide it among yourselves, Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for you, for many for the forgiveness of sins; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me'”. – Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:17-20, 1 Corinthians 11:25

And I say this as an Arian Christian (so I understand the distaste for Hellenisation and Greek philosophical concepts corrupting Jewish spiritual concepts and theology)

Even in the gospels you can see elements of the original Yeshua under the layers of Hellenic ideas. He’s a purely Jewish prophet

 

[James_Lai]

Jesus is not conceited. Yes, He was born into Jewish culture, but Jesus is God's own Son, with His true identity so more and better than what He could get from Jewish culture. And He intended to reach Gentiles; therefore, we have writings in other than Hebrew.

I offer that the message of the Gospels is a match with the theology of the epistles . . . of Paul and James and Jude and John and Peter. The spiritual meaning, the love meaning, matches.

The main kingdom Jesus talked about is > "within you" > Luke 17:20-21. And in our epistles we have various things about having the kingdom of God within us.

But yes there will be the kingdom of God on the new earth, not only within us but ruling all which is around us.

Just like I said, full-on Hellenization… Poor Yeshua. What was done to His ideas! Kingdom was literal Kingdom. Among/within yes it’s another peculiar “can of worms”

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The original Jesus teaching is hard to reconstruct based on the sources we have. However, very vaguely He’s a Jewish apocalyptic prophet who preached the Kingdom is arriving very soon and that people are to get rid of their earthly possessions and to live a highly moral life in preparation to this global event.

He preached the Kingdom of God and the desire to make His Home in us. Very few will find this truth. Blessings.

 

[James_Lai]

He preached the Kingdom of God and the desire to make His Home in us. Very few will find this truth. Blessings.

Yes, it’s Hellenization of His message… I think Yeshua ha-Nozri wouldn’t recognize Himself in Iesous Christos… Like two completely different men…

 

[James_Lai]

Let's look in Mark then.

The Parable of the Tenants
12 Jesus then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.

6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’

7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others. 10 Haven’t you read this passage of Scripture:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
11 the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?”

==========
Here, the Jews are the tenants that beat up and killed the prophets, and even killed the Son.... In the parable, and in reality, the vineyard will be given (heaven will be opened) to other nations.

This reminds of how in the Old Testament (which is in Hebrew), we already read that salvation will be opened to all the world.

"... I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”
Isaiah 49:6 - Bible Gateway

Israel was to be a light for all nations, and salvation would be opened to all the world.

6 “And those from a strange land who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him and to love His name, to be His servants, and keep the Day of Rest holy, and keep My agreement, 7 even those I will bring to My holy mountain and give them joy in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and gifts will be received on My altar. For My house will be called a house of prayer for all people.”
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 56 - New Life Version


So, invariably, inevitably, Jesus would open up salvation to all the world. Not only the Greek and the Jew, but all.

The Lord of Lords, the Son of God, would always make salvation open to all the nations , and fulfill scriptures.

A whole theology based on one italicized word? I understand the parable quite differently.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Even in the gospels you can see elements of the original Yeshua under the layers of Hellenic ideas. He’s a purely Jewish prophet

This tells me all I need to know about you and your claims. Jesus is the Son of God, Savior of mankind, propitiation for our sins, not just a prophet.

 

[James_Lai]

This tells me all I need to know about you and your claims. Jesus is the Son of God, Savior of mankind, propitiation for our sins, not just a prophet.

The original historic Yeshua ha-Nozri and Iesous Christos Kurios Theos Soter are not the same.

Twisted and appropriated…

 

[James_Lai]

Jesus is quoted crying out “Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani” while painfully dying on the cross…

We have to understand that what we read in the gospels is Hellenization of this exceptional Jewish spiritual preacher

 

[Halbhh]

A whole theology based on one italicized word? I understand the parable quite differently.

From having read this gospel several times, in student ways, I found that to better understand, it's best to put aside every preconception, doctrine, debate, and try to just read through with listening, with an attempt to learn as if you were listening in person to the master teacher Himself.

 

[Lukaris]

I think the Lord foreknew how His Gospel would interact with the Greeks but allowed human effort to play out. See John 12:19-24.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Even in the gospels you can see elements of the original Yeshua under the layers of Hellenic ideas. He’s a purely Jewish prophet

I suspect this is the why of the parables. So many did not understand them that they did not know enough to cover up the truth they revealed. Good for us.

 

[James_Lai]

I suspect this is the why of the parables. So many did not understand them that they did not know enough to cover up the truth they revealed. Good for us.

Very true. “Hidden in plain sight”

 

[James_Lai]

From having read this gospel several times, in student ways, I found that to better understand, it's best to put aside every preconception, doctrine, debate, and try to just read through with listening, with an attempt to learn as if you were listening in person to the master teacher Himself.

Great approach. Through such reading it became obvious to me that the real Yeshua ha-Nozri and made-up Iesous Christos are not exactly the same person.

And I absolutely love the Greek language! Classical, koine, katharevousa, demotic etc you name it! Just the most beautiful language and culture in the world.

 

[ewq1938]