Hellenization of Jesus

[James_Lai]

Hello.
I read read the gospels over and over. I can recite chapters from memory easily. Of course, I also read in koine. What really is strange to me is Greek appropriation of a Jewish man and a Jewish faith. So you think it was really called for and it’s good?

Yeshua ha-Nozri or Jesus the Nazarene was His lifetime name. Greek designation of Christos was of course attached to Him many years later when His ideas spread far into Hellenized lands and picked up by the Jewish people there. So Jewishness was amalgamated with Greekness.

Poor Jesus, would He agree to such marriage of ideas? What do you think? I can absolutely clearly see that He was misunderstood and His teaching twisted and completely lead astray. Iesous is not Yeshua and Christos is not Nozri. A world of difference!!

There was nothing Greek in Him or His teachings, but later He was basically almost fully Hellenized in name, traditions, ideology… How can we allow such hijacking of the great Jewish prophet and thinker Yeshua? Isn’t it so painfully unfair?!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Most of the New Testament was written in Greek, by the very men that walked with Jesus or had met Jesus. So I doubt it matters as these men would certainly have said not to do so and most definitely not written in Greek as Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς)

 

[James_Lai]

I don't think he cares honestly. Most of the New Testament was written in Greek, by the very men that walked with Jesus or had met Jesus. So I doubt it matters

So says the legend.

Textological analysis of the gospels shows that Mark was written first, and Matthew and Luke are based on Mark. John was written last. Many decades after the events. In these gospels - synoptical and John - we can see gradual higher exhalted Christology. So Hellenization happened in stages.

Uneducated Aramaic-speaking Galileans who accompanied Yeshua ha-Nozri have nothing to do with the well composed literary gospels, they’re heavily Hellenized writings from an established religious group.

It’s like saying A Midsummer Night’s Dream was written by an Ethiopian farmer. Possible, but so unlikely.

The worst part, the original teaching of Yeshua suffered greatly! He wasn’t heard. Christianity uses His changed name to counterfeit Him.

Jes-us is a dead give away. He’s Yeshua. And never was called Christos ever in His life.

Even on the cross a Roman wrote “Yeshua, the king of the Jews”

 

[ByTheSpirit]

So says the legend.

Textological analysis of the gospels shows that Mark was written first, and Matthew and Luke are based on Mark. John was written last. Many decades after the events. In these gospels - synoptical and John - we can see gradual higher exhalted Christology. So Hellenization happened in stages.

Uneducated Aramaic-speaking Galileans who accompanied Yeshua ha-Nozri have nothing to do with the well composed literary gospels, they’re heavily Hellenized writings from an established religious group.

It’s like saying A Midsummer Night’s Dream was written by an Ethiopian farmer. Possible, but so unlikely.

The worst part, the original teaching of Yeshua suffered greatly! He wasn’t heard. Christianity uses His changed name to counterfeit Him.

Jes-us is a dead give away. He’s Yeshua. And never was called Christos ever in His life.

Even on the cross a Roman wrote “Yeshua, the king of the Jews”

Well of course he wouldn't have been heralded as the Christos during his life time. He was proven to be the Son of God by his resurrection (Romans 1:4). He always referred to himself as the Son of Man, but he was most definitely called the Messiah after he arose.

But that's not the point here. There's very good evidence that both Matthew and John were actually quite literate. Luke and Paul would also have been quite literate. That is like what, 90% of the New Testament and Greek was the language of the common people within the Roman Empire so it's not unbelievable that these men would have not only have known the language, but would have written the gospels in the language for commoners to know it and understand it. Peter you could make the argument was illiterate, but he could easily have had someone else transcribe his epistles, and Mark not much is known about, but he could have been fully capable of writing his gospel. Again, language of the common people.

But you are seemingly forgetting one very important detail to the scriptures. The Holy Spirit is the one who inspired them, I'd more likely believe that even if these men didn't know Greek, the Holy Spirit does and could easily have led them to transcribe it.

 

[Petros2015]

How can we allow such hijacking of the great Jewish prophet and thinker Yeshua? Isn’t it so painfully unfair?!

Er... sounds like you are saying he should be demoted?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hello.
I read read the gospels over and over. I can recite chapters from memory easily. Of course, I also read in koine. What really is strange to me is Greek appropriation of a Jewish man and a Jewish faith. So you think it was really called for and it’s good?

Yeshua ha-Nozri or Jesus the Nazarene was His lifetime name. Greek designation of Christos was of course attached to Him many years later when His ideas spread far into Hellenized lands and picked up by the Jewish people there. So Jewishness was amalgamated with Greekness.

Poor Jesus, would He agree to such marriage of ideas? What do you think? I can absolutely clearly see that He was misunderstood and His teaching twisted and completely lead astray. Iesous is not Yeshua and Christos is not Nozri. A world of difference!!

There was nothing Greek in Him or His teachings, but later He was basically almost fully Hellenized in name, traditions, ideology… How can we allow such hijacking of the great Jewish prophet and thinker Yeshua? Isn’t it so painfully unfair?!

Christ means "anointed One" and in Hebrew "Messiah". Its ok to translate scripture in different languages.
Careful not to get caught up in the Sacred Name Movement.
Blessings.

 

[James_Lai]

Er... sounds like you are saying he should be demoted?

Demoted or promoted, He should be what He really is, isn’t it so? Hellenization wasn’t part of the plan, it’s pretty obvious.

 

[James_Lai]

Christ means "anointed One" and in Hebrew "Messiah". Its ok to translate scripture in different languages.
Careful not to get caught up in the Sacred Name Movement.
Blessings.

You missed my point. It’s not linguistic, it’s about genuine Yeshua vs. Hellenized counterfeit

 

[James_Lai]

Well of course he wouldn't have been heralded as the Christos during his life time. He was proven to be the Son of God by his resurrection (Romans 1:4). He always referred to himself as the Son of Man, but he was most definitely called the Messiah after he arose.

But that's not the point here. There's very good evidence that both Matthew and John were actually quite literate. Luke and Paul would also have been quite literate. That is like what, 90% of the New Testament and Greek was the language of the common people within the Roman Empire so it's not unbelievable that these men would have not only have known the language, but would have written the gospels in the language for commoners to know it and understand it. Peter you could make the argument was illiterate, but he could easily have had someone else transcribe his epistles, and Mark not much is known about, but he could have been fully capable of writing his gospel. Again, language of the common people.

But you are seemingly forgetting one very important detail to the scriptures. The Holy Spirit is the one who inspired them, I'd more likely believe that even if these men didn't know Greek, the Holy Spirit does and could easily have led them to transcribe it.

Textological analysis points to the simple fact the gospels were written at a time when all of the people you mentioned would not be alive unless they were all well over 100 years old

Legends are nice, we all know them very well. Facts speak to a different history though

The Hellenized religion of Christianity (no Jewish word there) was the product of twisting the real Yeshua way out of His message. Iesous Christos is most definitely not Yeshua ha-Nozri…

 

[Maria Billingsley]

You missed my point. It’s not linguistic, it’s about genuine Yeshua vs. Hellenized counterfeit

You mean spreading the Gospel to the Gentiles? I guess I'm not getting it. Greeks are not a counterfeit culture.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Iesous Christos is most definitely not Yeshua ha-Nozri…

Curious to know the difference. Thanks for sharing.

 

[CallofChrist]

The Hellenized religion of Christianity (no Jewish word there) was the product of twisting the real Yeshua way out of His message. Iesous Christos is most definitely not Yeshua ha-Nozri…

What is the message we are missing?

 

[Hawthorne]

Did you just come on here to promulgate your pet theory?

In this short (just over thirty minutes) video Seraphim Hamilton suggests "Hellenism" was far from a corruption but originated from concepts from ancient Israel.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I only have the time to learn one ancient language. Which one?
I am thinking Aramaic (Galilean). This is what Jesus spoke to the common people around Him, few if any knew Greek. Hebrew of course is another option.
But I sometimes wonder of what value studying in depth the Greek versions and word studies are if in fact the Lord did not speak to the common people in this language. Perhaps the epistles were originally written in Greek? I even question that.

 

[Halbhh]

Textological analysis of the gospels shows that Mark was written first, and Matthew and Luke are based on Mark. John was written last. Many decades after the events. In these gospels - synoptical and John - we can see gradual higher exhalted Christology. So Hellenization happened in stages.

Let's look in Mark then.

The Parable of the Tenants
12 Jesus then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.

6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’

7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others. 10 Haven’t you read this passage of Scripture:

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
11 the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?”

==========
Here, the Jews are the tenants that beat up and killed the prophets, and even killed the Son.... In the parable, and in reality, the vineyard will be given (heaven will be opened) to other nations.

This reminds of how in the Old Testament (which is in Hebrew), we already read that salvation will be opened to all the world.

"... I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”
Isaiah 49:6 - Bible Gateway

Israel was to be a light for all nations, and salvation would be opened to all the world.

6 “And those from a strange land who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him and to love His name, to be His servants, and keep the Day of Rest holy, and keep My agreement, 7 even those I will bring to My holy mountain and give them joy in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and gifts will be received on My altar. For My house will be called a house of prayer for all people.”
Bible Gateway passage: Isaiah 56 - New Life Version


So, invariably, inevitably, Jesus would open up salvation to all the world. Not only the Greek and the Jew, but all.

The Lord of Lords, the Son of God, would always make salvation open to all the nations , and fulfill scriptures.

 

[James_Lai]

Did you just come on here to promulgate your pet theory?

In this short (just over thirty minutes) video Seraphim Hamilton suggests "Hellenism" was far from a corruption but originated from concepts from ancient Israel.

All human knowledge is inter-related at some level. Even native Americans who were separate from their motherland Eurasia for millennia have striking similarity to the indigenous Eurasian peoples in their spiritual traditions and cultures in general.

Still, there’s Yeshua and there’s Iesous and the distinction is huge

 

[Proselyte of Yah]

I forget the exact details now, but there is textual evidence that John was originally written in Aramaic, not Greek.

The translation into Greek came later, because it was the most common language spoken in the Roman world, next to Latin.

The term "Christ", is a direct translation of "Messiah", both terms mean "anointed one", which is another way of saying "consecrated" or "king". The practice of consecrating a king in Israel included pouring "anointing oil" on their head.

Throughout the Old Testament, all the kings were "Messiahs", or "Christs", the term "Christ" is used in place of the Hebrew word Messiah in the Greek Septuagint Old Testament texts (the oldest ones we have besides the Dead Sea fragments), not just for Jesus (or Yeshua if you prefer).

• “He gives his king great victories; he shows unfailing love to his anointed (Messiah/Christos), to David and to his descendants forever” – Psalm 18:50
• “My heart is stirred by a noble theme as I recite my verses for the king… You are the most excellent of men and your lips have been anointed (Messiah/Christos) with grace, since God has blessed you forever… Your throne, O God/God is your throne, forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of exultation“. – Psalm 45:1-2, 6-7

Jesus was the "king of the Jews", because he was "Christened", aka "Messiahed" aka, "anointed". It all means the same thing. So really the argument made a false dichotomy.

I do think it's "possible" (big emphasis) parts of John's Gospel were later corrupted by Greek concepts however, but that's a very deep subject to get into. But in short, there are Hebrew copies of John dating from the 15th century, which are thought to be from a separate manuscript tradition to the other Greek and Latin texts, in which at John 1, it calls Jesus the "Son" as opposed to the "logos", and if anyone is familiar with Greek thought, Philo, etc, then they'll know how that impacts the theology of "the Word".

Not to say that the "logos" isn't the original word used of course, as it has many uses, and isn't just a Greek philosophical term.


But putting all that aside. Even if we stick with just Mark, Matthew and Luke, we still get the same story and main teachings. Jesus is the Son of God who came and died for our sins. This is a universal teaching which is foretold in the Tanakh, and in the earliest Gospel books, long before John's was written.

"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, spoke a blessing and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, saying, ‘Take and eat; this is my body, given for you; do this in remembrance of me’. Then he took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, ‘Take this and divide it among yourselves, Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for you, for many for the forgiveness of sins; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me'”. – Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:17-20, 1 Corinthians 11:25

And I say this as an Arian Christian (so I understand the distaste for Hellenisation and Greek philosophical concepts corrupting Jewish spiritual concepts and theology)

 

[James_Lai]

What is the message we are missing?

Original message of Yeshua

 

[Hawthorne]

All human knowledge is inter-related at some level. Even native Americans who were separate from their motherland Eurasia for millennia have striking similarity to the indigenous Eurasian peoples in their spiritual traditions and cultures in general.

Still, there’s Yeshua and there’s Iesous and the distinction is huge

That's not at all what I'm talking about. This video suggests the roots of Greek philosophy had direct origin in Israelite philosophy and that the Greeks were entrusted with it until the fullness of time, if you will. St. Paul's home region of the philosophical center Tarsus, his occupation as a tentmaker, and his mission to the Greeks fulfill the prophecy in Genesis that Japheth shall dwell in the tents of Shem, referring not only to the gentile peoples but also to "Greek" philosophy.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

All human knowledge is inter-related at some level. Even native Americans who were separate from their motherland Eurasia for millennia have striking similarity to the indigenous Eurasian peoples in their spiritual traditions and cultures in general.

Still, there’s Yeshua and there’s Iesous and the distinction is huge

I'm still actually waiting for you to explain the difference.

You've said a lot about how the Greeks corrupted the message of Jesus and such, but have given no evidence at all of such a claim. Nor have you given what your version of Jesus and his message look like and how it's different from the Bible.