Hell

Nanopants · Apr 9, 2015

r0keye said:
Sorry, I see that the explanation is that the young man wasn't willing to give up his treasure to follow Christ.

Not asexual. Just a change of mindset from porn and 'sleeping with the next hottest thing' to a season of singleness and purity, preparing for lifelong marriage with one woman.

Ok, good. Then you should understand that the purity spoken of in scripture is that of the heart, and a conscience cleansed and restored by grace through faith, and not the purity of ancient european virginity cults.

No, but I would love to hear your testimony!!

Most people don't accept my testimony. Actually, to date nobody really ever has. I prayed to God once upon a time to show me the truth no matter how much it hurt me, two days later I had something like a hemorrhagic stroke, and in the midst of fear and panic, I was driven to flee hundreds of miles away into the desert for a week where I saw some amazing things and thought I was going to die. Eventually, I came to see that my prayer was answered. In short, I gave up my life.

r0keye · Apr 9, 2015

KitKatMatt said:
Does wearing underwear of the opposite sex concentrate the evil thoughts or something?

Our group of evangelists met a man on the street who had actually murdered someone years ago. I was initially scared, but then I realised that I have the same capacity myself.

He had an amazing story of redemption though, and he had served his time.

With so much unjustified murder going on today from ISIS and the American police force against black people, how dare we think that we are not capable of stooping to that same level. We desperately need a saviour and to learn to love and forgive those who hurt us!

r0keye · Apr 9, 2015

Nanopants said:
Ok, good. Then you should understand that the purity spoken of in scripture is that of the heart, and a conscience cleansed and restored by grace through faith, and not the purity of ancient european virginity cults.

Lol. I fully concur with this statement.

Nanopants said:
Most people don't accept my testimony. Actually, to date nobody really ever has. I prayed to God once upon a time to show me the truth no matter how much it hurt me, two days later I had something like a hemorrhagic stroke, and in the midst of fear and panic, I was driven to flee hundreds of miles away into the desert for a week where I saw some amazing things and thought I was going to die. Eventually, I came to see that my prayer was answered. In short, I gave up my life.

Bro that is amazing! That is like what happened to Moses after he killed the egyptian, like Elijah after he fought the prophets of Baal, and like Jesus after he was baptised all combined. Did you ever write down what you heard / saw?

KitKatMatt · Apr 9, 2015

That had nothing to do with my post, but thanks?

r0keye · Apr 9, 2015

KitKatMatt said:
That had nothing to do with my post, but thanks?

Sorry I thought womens underwear causes murderous thoughts. My underwear is blue, but it might actually be baby blue from the girls section and some cruel person put it on the guys rack.

Nanopants · Apr 9, 2015

r0keye said:
Bro that is amazing! That is like what happened to Moses after he killed the egyptian, like Elijah after he fought the prophets of Baal, and like Jesus after he was baptised all combined. Did you ever write down what you heard / saw?

No but I drew a picture of it. It was an intense desert rain cloud formation, not a hallucination, with three rainbows piercing through to the ground kind of like pillars and the sun shining through it, which reminds me of the Trinity.

Things didn't all come at once, but later, it helped me to understand difficult subjects like the Incarnation.

r0keye · Apr 9, 2015

Nanopants said:
No but I drew a picture of it. It was an intense desert rain cloud formation, not a hallucination, with three rainbows piercing through to the ground kind of like pillars and the sun shining through it, which reminds me of the Trinity.

Things didn't all come at once, but later, it helped me to understand difficult subjects like the Incarnation.

I think it just shows how many different ways God saves people. Many through crazy experiences like you had, some like me realising the depravity of their own nature.

Its like A. W. Tozer vs Charles Spurgeon. Both came to the same conclusions through very different routes.

nick garai · Apr 9, 2015

SarahsKnight said:
Well, you already know me, Jack. I am an annihlationist, and pretty much Nano's and Kitt's reflections on this subject echo mine.

I not only find eternal torture (that's what it is, folks, let's not mince words) to be incompatible with God's mercy AND justice, but also way too Biblically inaccurate in most passages that deal on the subject. So both ways it is extremely fishy, emotionally and Biblically. I'll leave it at that.

Jesus is a torturer of those who do evil. Read Matthew 8:29. The demons begged Jesus not to torture them before the appointed time. Yes there is within the Godhead the element of torture for those who practise iniquity. Do not fool yourself into annihilationist thinking or that G-d does not send workers of evil to hell. He does. And Jesus is known throughout the spiritual world as a torturer of those who practise evil.

Nanopants · Apr 9, 2015

nick garai said:
Jesus is a torturer of those who do evil. Read Matthew 8:29. The demons begged Jesus not to torture them before the appointed time. Yes there is within the Godhead the element of torture for those who practise iniquity. Do not fool yourself into annihilationist thinking or that G-d does not send workers of evil to hell. He does. And Jesus is known throughout the spiritual world as a torturer of those who practise evil.

Here's a quick question. You don't have to answer but it's something to think about. Let's say there's a line in the sand and God says "don't cross the line," but someone's toe slips over. Would the just thing be to horribly and incessantly beat that individual, or is that injustice, which is synonymous with iniquity?

If that's justice, then may as well heat up the furnace and throw me in. That's not the God described by the prophets.

nick garai · Apr 9, 2015

Nanopants said:
Here's a quick question. You don't have to answer but it's something to think about. Let's say there's a line in the sand and God says "don't cross the line," but someone's toe slips over. Would the just thing be to horribly and incessantly beat that individual, or is that injustice, which is synonymous with iniquity?

If that's justice, then may as well heat up the furnace and throw me in. That's not the God described by the prophets.

And yet Here we still have demons admitting that Jesus is a torturer of those who commit evil. The penalty for iniquity is punishment in Hell where people are tortured along with demons and the Devil.

Nanopants · Apr 9, 2015

Do you suppose that demons believing that torture is right, well beyond the degree of a transgression, could have anything to do with it?

SnowyMacie · Apr 9, 2015

JackofSpades said:
- How big part idea of hell plays in your religiousness?

Not very big, probably because I didn't grow up in a "fire and brimstone" church.

JackofSpades said:
- How you manage to fit the idea of loving God and hellfire together? Is it possible?

Well, I believe that Hell is not eternal, conscious torment, but your own self-destruction in your continued rebellion against God. To quote C.S.
"I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside." They are not being punished, they are living in manifestation of their own sin and a result are destroying themselves.

JackofSpades said:
- If you have changed your beliefs one way or another about this at some point in your life, want to share something about that?

I started reading what the Bible really says about Hell, and came to conclusion that there really isn't much, the vast majority of which are referencing Gehenna/Hinnom...
...the old Jerusalem city dump.

Sketcher · Apr 9, 2015

JackofSpades said:
- How big part idea of hell plays in your religiousness?

It's significant. If one believes it exists at all, as I do, it should be significant given how serious it is.

JackofSpades said:
- How you manage to fit the idea of loving God and hellfire together? Is it possible?

Absolutely it's possible. I believe that love for the victim motivates wrath toward the oppressor. And there are many oppressors among the human race. God is quite merciful enough in that he gives us a way to avoid Hell.

JackofSpades · Apr 10, 2015

Nanopants said:
That's reality though. I'm not trying to describe something beyond reality, my beliefs amount to my view of reality, and in reality, we all have different views and beliefs about reality, and these differences affect reality. I.e. people are often mistreated, killed, even go to war, in part because of differences in these views, so it's not so much about which "facts" one believes, but what one believes is right behavior that matters: if one believes it's right to burn heretics who haven't harmed anyone, it's because that's what he believes his god does, but Christ describes and shows that God is reflective of the individual's character.

I actually believe that sort of to be true in our earthly spiritual walk. I believe god we commune with is inseparable mixture of actual spiritual being and that of our subconsicious image of god.

That way of seeing it kind of explains to me why people experience god and spirituality in so different ways. It's as if everyone has different colored window in their mind, and light (god) shining behind that window appears to have color of that window. But nobody sees the light without anything in-between.

But to take that idea to afterlife too is going one step further. Maybe I'm a bit afraid that believing it would make me lose my hope that this neverending swamp of relativism and subjectivism some day ends.

Messy · Apr 10, 2015

JackofSpades said:
Such a fun and light topic. My intention is not to argue about whether there is hell or not, but rather just hear peoples thoughts about it.

- How big part idea of hell plays in your religiousness?

- How you manage to fit the idea of loving God and hellfire together? Is it possible?

- If you have changed your beliefs one way or another about this at some point in your life, want to share something about that?

- big, but I hate it, so how I deal with it is just do as He says so I won't come there and pray that He shows people they need Him in time. It used to drive me totally nuts, one guy said: What's wrong with you? He'd never seen me like that. Oh I have been reading about hell. I was in a cult when I was just saved and it was hell here and hell there. What helped me was the testimony of Ian McCormack, an atheist who just before he died got saved because his mother prayed. When my granddad almost died God said: You have the keys. Use them. Tomorrow will be too late. He was an antitheist I'd call it, my dad hit my mother after she told him the gospel, but he did hear it and God can convince people even in their last breath.

- People just flee from Him and the Light to cover their sins up in darkness is what Sadhu Sundhar Singh saw

- I don't think it's eternal, but aioons which is bad enough, so let's pray noone gets there.

blackribbon · Apr 10, 2015

Hell is simply the absence of God. So it is the absence of light. It is the absence of justice. The absence of love, caring, compassion, grace. The absence of fellowship. It is being completely alone in the dark for eternity.

Tess · Apr 10, 2015

First of all just 'for what its worth':
I have never wanted to kill anyone, so I don't think it's true that everyone just occasionally gets the urge...
And there's nothing wrong with a guy wearing women's underwear. It's just clothes.

JackofSpades said:
- How big part idea of hell plays in your religiousness?

Not very, I don't believe in a traditional model of hell.

- How you manage to fit the idea of loving God and hellfire together? Is it possible?

If you mean like a burning for eternity kind of scenario then personally I couldn't make these ideas compatible, no.

- If you have changed your beliefs one way or another about this at some point in your life, want to share something about that?

Um, I grew up in a church that talked about hell a bit, not loads. Although having said that, us kids (11-17 age) went to a summer camp every year run by the church and one night of the week they always did a big night where they preached the gospel and lots of people got saved, and this always involved a lot of talk about hell.. one year they brought in a coffin, another year they had a guillotine on stage... it didn't seem very strange at the time, but looking back maybe it was.

Anyway as I've grown older and studied into it and lived life a bit more I don't worry about it so much. I'm not saying I don't believe in hell, but I'm confident that it wouldn't be eternal torture, if it does exist. Maybe a brief period of 'correction' (if you will) and then you get another chance to come to Jesus, or maybe you just stop existing... I'm not too sure. But yeah, I'm confident that if my brother died tomorrow he wouldn't be tortured forever.

JackofSpades · Apr 10, 2015

Tessaurus said:
Although having said that, us kids (11-17 age) went to a summer camp every year run by the church and one night of the week they always did a big night where they preached the gospel and lots of people got saved, and this always involved a lot of talk about hell.. one year they brought in a coffin, another year they had a guillotine on stage... it didn't seem very strange at the time, but looking back maybe it was.

Did they happen to be pentecostals? Pentecostals have been infamous here for freaking out their kids with hell in their summer camps. If there is one religious practise in Finland I could wish to become non-existent, that would be on top of my list.

Tessaurus said:
I'm not saying I don't believe in hell, but I'm confident that it wouldn't be eternal torture, if it does exist. Maybe a brief period of 'correction' (if you will) and then you get another chance to come to Jesus, or maybe you just stop existing...

More like Purgatory then?

I don't personally have problem with the idea if I was somehow spanked for my sins in afterlife. As long as it doesn't last for eternity. Not pleasant thought but not horrifying either. I think being rightfully punished is justice, and I'm confident that if god is the one who orders such afterlife punishments, they would be just. I think god is the one who can see when someone is actually sinning and when they are not, even if they appear to be, so it would be alot better trial than anything on this life.

Tess · Apr 10, 2015

JackofSpades said:
Did they happen to be pentecostals? Pentecostals have been infamous here for freaking out their kids with hell in their summer camps.

It was NewFrontiers... I'm never too sure what category different churches go in but they were an evangelical/pentecostal type thing I think.

More like Purgatory then?

I don't personally have problem with the idea if I was somehow spanked for my sins in afterlife. As long as it doesn't last for eternity. Not pleasant thought but not horrifying either.

Yeah, I completely agree.

SnowyMacie · Apr 10, 2015

JackofSpades said:
Did they happen to be pentecostals? Pentecostals have been infamous here for freaking out their kids with hell in their summer camps. If there is one religious practise in Finland I could wish to become non-existent, that would be on top of my list.

Tessaurus said:
It was NewFrontiers... I'm never too sure what category different churches go in but they were an evangelical/pentecostal type thing I think.

Have you ever seen, I think it's called "Hellbound?". I was surprised at what some churches to basically scare people into Christianity, and some of them *cough*Mark Driscoll*cough* seemed like they wanted people to tortured for eternity.

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