Hell?

[Robban]

Robban,

The idea of self sacrifice - dying to self - is a common theme in many faiths as far as I understand them. The problem is normally reduced to the fact that seeking to do so involves trying to pull yourself up (or perhaps down) by your bootstraps................the self seeking to die to itself!

I would not think that the words of Jesus were seeking to deny any need of sacrifice, given that His own is at the heart of Christianity. Using more "mystical" language, the idea is associated with kenosis, the self emptying of Christ, normally based upon the words in the NT of Phillipians.....

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

We are asked to become "Christ-like", and in this sense therefore, to empty ourselves. So the sacrifice of ourselves is made possible by the prior sacrifice of Christ - and again in more mystical language, an eternal one.........."in the beginning was the Word".

From my own Buddhist perspective, this is associated with the central teaching of anatta, or "no-self" (sadly - in a somewhat mad attempt to relate it to Christian terms - misunderstood to mean "without a soul") As Suzuki says, a human being is "empty from the beginning".........they have not acquired emptiness or become empty. "No-self" has nothing to do with getting rid of anything, but of SEEING the true nature of the self.

So in Christianity............."If I have no love I am nothing"
In Buddhism........."If 'I' am nothing, I have love"

So my understanding is that the impossible feat of "dying to self" is made possible in both faiths, I suppose in somewhat paradoxical ways. Just how this all works out in our existential lives is another matter. Though the "template" for it is "one" (or perhaps "narrow"!!) the actual reality we each experience is infinite.

My apologies for getting a bit "technical", sometimes it seems like trying to explain a joke. If you "get it" you laugh, if you don't, explanations are beside the point......

Tariki,
For a proud and selfish person to do repentence must be impossible, unless they first sacrifice their pride and selfishness, there is no other way. Therefore a proud and selfish person cannot know or recognize mercy, That,s what I meant. Edit, by pride i,m talking, excessive pride.

 

[razeontherock]

May be that,s what the expression,"Where the corpse lies, there gather the vultures" means, but it could mean something else of course.

That's actually a quote (by Jesus) from Enoch!

 

[razeontherock]

A wonderful and unexpected development in this thread!

From my own Buddhist perspective, this is associated with the central teaching of anatta, or "no-self" (sadly - in a somewhat mad attempt to relate it to Christian terms - misunderstood to mean "without a soul") As Suzuki says, a human being is "empty from the beginning".........they have not acquired emptiness or become empty. "No-self" has nothing to do with getting rid of anything, but of SEEING the true nature of the self.

Allow me to point out that this concept exists in Christianity. I am not prepared to say it is an "ultimate goal," but some posters on CF would say that. It's certainly a major landmark in "renewing the mind," to say the least. The C terminology is that of an empty vessel, or dead in our sins, apart from Him we can do nothing ...

Many word pictures to convey the idea, and it is at least integral to "laboring to enter into that rest." It's also conveyed as "trusting in Christ's completed work on the cross." It doesn't happen by our own effort, which is the point of Sabbath.

 

[Robban]

That's actually a quote (by Jesus) from Enoch!

Yes, in what context was it used?

 

[Tariki]

Tariki,
For a proud and selfish person to do repentence must be impossible, unless they first sacrifice their pride and selfishness, there is no other way. Therefore a proud and selfish person cannot know or recognize mercy, That,s what I meant. Edit, by pride i,m talking, excessive pride.

Robban,

I'm a bit dense at times and find it difficult to grasp certain points, but it was this that I was seeking to speak about. Yes, a proud and selfish person cannot recognise mercy. And yes, paradoxical in its own way, that that is exactly what a person must do - recognise mercy - before they can abandon their pride and selfishness.

I fear waffling again, but Buddhism relates to all this in a certain "non-dual" fashion, rather than the "I-Thou" of Christianity. Pure Land has a bit of both. Before Shinran, the idea was that a human being needed to develope a "sincere mind", an "entrusting mind", a mind that truly "aspired" to enlightenment, THEN they could "show mercy" (switching to our key word) Shinran saw that such was not possible, and recognised that these "three minds" could only ever be a "given"......a gift. Not of "ourselves" but of Amida.

Really, Pure Land can become as complicated and involved as any Christian theology, but thats it as simply as I can put it. It all seems cold in a way, yet the existential reality is not so, at least for me.

 

[Tariki]

A wonderful and unexpected development in this thread!



Allow me to point out that this concept exists in Christianity. I am not prepared to say it is an "ultimate goal,"

Of course it does! And I would say that its not the "ultimate goal" of Buddhism, in as much as I agree with Suzuki, that SEEING this allows us, to "cast aside" the experience of "seeing" and "become the ordinary Tom, Dick or Harry we have always been."

Or, as per T S Eliot......(a little bit of name dropping here.....)

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.

 

[Meepy]

Meepy,

You have obviously not heard of Pure Land Buddhism. It is, at least for me, the clearest expression of the reality of Grace that I know of.

And I have nowhere claimed that Buddhism is totally free of intolerance. I know of far more incidents of intolerance in Buddhist history that the An-Shi Rebellion, which I in fact had not heard of until now. But thanks for bringing it to my attention, I'll look it up.

What it is free of is the doctrine of Eternal Torment and the attempts to make such a doctrine compatible with "justice".

hmmm, I don't think it is truly "free" of it


Naraka (Buddhism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Robban]

Robban,

I'm a bit dense at times and find it difficult to grasp certain points, but it was this that I was seeking to speak about. Yes, a proud and selfish person cannot recognise mercy. And yes, paradoxical in its own way, that that is exactly what a person must do - recognise mercy - before they can abandon their pride and selfishness.

I fear waffling again, but Buddhism relates to all this in a certain "non-dual" fashion, rather than the "I-Thou" of Christianity. Pure Land has a bit of both. Before Shinran, the idea was that a human being needed to develope a "sincere mind", an "entrusting mind", a mind that truly "aspired" to enlightenment, THEN they could "show mercy" (switching to our key word) Shinran saw that such was not possible, and recognised that these "three minds" could only ever be a "given"......a gift. Not of "ourselves" but of Amida.

Really, Pure Land can become as complicated and involved as any Christian theology, but thats it as simply as I can put it. It all seems cold in a way, yet the existential reality is not so, at least for me.

Tariki,
Not going to harp on this
But I noticed the "thou", though not connected to a Christian theme as such, someone pointed out the other day the difference between, thou and you. They meant that "you" can be used meaning one or more persons, whereas "thou" was used concerning one person.
What says?

 

[vajradhara]

hmmm, I don't think it is truly "free" of it


Naraka (Buddhism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it is, actually, according to the link you quoted:

Naraka differs from the hells of Abrahamic religions in two respects. First, beings are not sent to Naraka as the result of a divine judgment and punishment; second, the length of a being's stay in a Naraka is not eternal, though it is usually very long.
Instead, a being is born into a Naraka as a direct result of his or her accumulated karma and resides there for a finite period of time until that karma has achieved its full result. After his or her karma is used up, he or she will be reborn in one of the higher worlds as the result of karma that had not yet ripened.

metta,

~v

 

[razeontherock]

Yes, in what context was it used?

Wow, that - where the body is so shall the eagles ... along with most of the hard saying of Jesus are in Enoch. This is one I had a moment of clarity on as I read it, but it normally escapes me. Words from a Brother I respect are to the effect that it is our old man (ego, selfishness etc you alluded to) dying off, and the 'birds of the air' circling overhead can be sensed, giving us an idea of what's going on. This isn't precisely the idea I got from the text though, and I won't guess how well they harmonize. I just add it to the fray, in case it might help ...

 

[Robban]

Wow, that - where the body is so shall the eagles ... along with most of the hard saying of Jesus are in Enoch. This is one I had a moment of clarity on as I read it, but it normally escapes me. Words from a Brother I respect are to the effect that it is our old man (ego, selfishness etc you alluded to) dying off, and the 'birds of the air' circling overhead can be sensed, giving us an idea of what's going on. This isn't precisely the idea I got from the text though, and I won't guess how well they harmonize. I just add it to the fray, in case it might help ...

Ok Ray, I,m a little tired now, thanks for responding.

 

[Andrew Ryan]

As far as Hell goes I agree with the below quote which use to be in my sig:

"Life is cruel, why should the afterlife be any different?"-Davy Jones.

 

[Meepy]

it is, actually, according to the link you quoted:

Naraka differs from the hells of Abrahamic religions in two respects. First, beings are not sent to Naraka as the result of a divine judgment and punishment; second, the length of a being's stay in a Naraka is not eternal, though it is usually very long.
Instead, a being is born into a Naraka as a direct result of his or her accumulated karma and resides there for a finite period of time until that karma has achieved its full result. After his or her karma is used up, he or she will be reborn in one of the higher worlds as the result of karma that had not yet ripened.

metta,

~v

yea they are not identical, but the concept is still there. I read the stays are pretty long too

 

[Meepy]

As far as Hell goes I agree with the below quote which use to be in my sig:

"Life is cruel, why should the afterlife be any different?"-Davy Jones.

but the thing is, is it shouldn't have to be.. through the merits and passion of Christ. God wishes no one to perish. He went through the utmost humiliation and a horrid painful death for us.

 

[JJWhite]

Ok Ray, I,m a little tired now, thanks for responding.

Take care of yourself, Robban.

 

[Andrew Ryan]

but the thing is, is it shouldn't have to be.. through the merits and passion of Christ. God wishes no one to perish. He went through the utmost humiliation and a horrid painful death for us.

This is true but what can you do? You lead a horse to water but can't make it drink.

 

[razeontherock]

Salt the horse!

 

[Tariki]

hmmm, I don't think it is truly "free" of it


Naraka (Buddhism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

meepy,

The operative word is "eternal".

 

[Tariki]

Salt the horse!

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

From the Wiki-link:

"First, beings are not sent to Naraka as the result of a divine judgment and punishment; second, the length of a being's stay in a Naraka is not eternal, though it is usually very long.
Instead, a being is born into a Naraka as a direct result of his or her accumulated karma and resides there for a finite period of time until that karma has achieved its full result. After his or her karma is used up, he or she will be reborn in one of the higher worlds as the result of karma that had not yet ripened."

Sounds plausible, unlike the eternal cosmic death camps proposed by (some factions of) Christianity and Islam.