Hell?

[Robban]

There are some sober and sensible schools of thought about this suject.
A subject which may not be often delved into, for other reasons than to get it over and done with. All thought of this kind of thing will only hamper ones life. One thing is for sure, it is wrong to use it as a carrot on a stick.
Painting a picture of creepy crawlys with sharp teeth does not benifit anyone. It has the opposite effect, it is used as a means to scare folks.
It does nothing to take away fear, but it engulfs one in fear instead.

 

[Jpark]

A recurring theme here has been the injustice of a temporary offense receiving eternal punishment. Here's the summary of an exhaustive study of the Bible's original languages:

"The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough

I thought maybe some others here might find this interesting?

Concerning Col. 1:20, that simply means that God has granted the Gentiles repentanace.

Eph. 2:11-14, 16 But now in Christ Jesus you [Gentiles] who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

Eph. 1:22-23 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

So the Scriptures you quoted do not indicate that everyone will be saved. Only those in Christ will be saved.

Concerning 1 Cor. 15:28, God already is (exists) in all:

Jeremiah 23:24 "Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?" declares the LORD.

2 Chronicles 6:18 ...Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You; how much less this house which I have built.

Eph. 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)




Concerning hell,

Matt. 18:34-35 clearly indicates torture for some. But is it eternal?

2 Thess. 1:9, eternal destruction, is only for those who oppose Christ in His coming.

 

[JJWhite]

...

 

[b&wpac7]

My knowledge of Torah is patchy but i understand it says the same thing.That the unbelievers go to eternal hell.Please correct me if i am wrong.

There is not indication of an eternal Hell in any of the Tanakh. Sheol is mentioned, but from the context *everybody* goes there.

Keep in mind that there's really no term "Unbeliever" in our scriptures. Our law was for us, not gentiles. Gentiles weren't supposed to follow our law.They didn't agree to the covenant. We did.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The 'wages of sin is death', not eternal life in torment.

 

[elopez]

A recurring theme here has been the injustice of a temporary offense receiving eternal punishment. Here's the summary of an exhaustive study of the Bible's original languages:

"The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough

I thought maybe some others here might find this interesting?

I don't think the degree that one warrants punishment is a function of the length of time to commit the crime. For instance it can take only seconds for one to murder another, yet hours to rob a bank. The point is, punishment is not related to how long it took to commit the deed rather how severe the deed was.

In 2 Thessalonians 1:9 the punishment is not temporary, since according to the phraseology of the text it shows that the purpose is not remedial rather retributive, hence "destruction" or "shut out" from the presence of God. The duration of time of punishment described in the above verse is "everlasting," which is the Greek word "aionios," meaning interminable duration. The everlasting punishment does not end just as God's existence as described in Romans 16:26: "but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God." It is the same word "aionios" used to describe God's existence as infinite in duration, without end, and the same word appears in correlation to punishment which makes the text read, "aionios kolasis." Kolasis is the Greek word for punishment, and refers to the immediate consequence of sin which is the negation of the enjoyment of love.

 

[razeontherock]

Anyway, a permanent hell for non-believer is one of the things I do find ''immoral'' and unbelievably cruel about some factions of Christians.

This grants "factions of christians" creative power, at least with regard to hell. This is most illogical!

A just, merciful and loving creator would not subject his creations to teh vilest 1) tortures in hell unless it would serve some utilitarian point. 2) Retributive justice serves no point other than to punish. If hell was retributive and eternal rather than utilitarian then it would teach no lesson that would better the attitude of 3) anyone else

In bold I have enumerated your false assumptions.

1) Vilest tortures? Now you're assuming all receive the same punishment? Not what the Bible teaches. "True and righteous are your Judgments o Lord."

2) Retributive = punishment, yes. G-d does not do this? You have never heard of karma? The law of sowing and reaping? Fate? You know very well this is part of our reality.

3) Hypothetical situation: 99% population in hell w/ no escape, 1% of population w/ eternal Life, having full knowledge of those in hell. Their punishment ha no affect on the attitude of the Living? You have not thought these things through!

the hell of fundamentalist Christians is illogical...unless their god is cruel and viscious.

You have actually gone outside in this great big world? There is nothing cruel or vicious?

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." - Romans 11:22

 

[Nooj]

Either no hell exists or the hells of the Dharmic and other Indo-European religions, temporary places of utilitarian punishment, exist, as the hell of fundamentalist Christians is illogical...unless their god is cruel and viscious.

Is that so hard to believe? I don't even know why we call God cruel and viscious. God is supposed to be beyond such human terms. Maybe God's unique way of loving us is to send those who don't love him to Hell.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Is that so hard to believe? I don't even know why we call God cruel and viscious. God is supposed to be beyond such human terms. Maybe God's unique way of loving us is to send those who don't love him to Hell.

Cthulhu approves of your insight. You're still on the dinner menu, though. He loves all of us.


Iä! Iä!

Mark

 

[razeontherock]

There's only one way to sort this out....FIGHT!
(With apologies to all those who have never had the pleasure of seeing the UK's Harry Hill in action).

I'll fight your harry Hill any day o da week. Throw in professor harry Hill too!

 

[razeontherock]

For me, to actually accept that I now exist within a reality that will forever more contain suffering is not Good News.

Well even in the darkest version, the reality of Eternal Life will not contain suffering ... (yes it is a strain on the brain to conceive how)

 

[razeontherock]

A subject which may not be often delved into, for other reasons than to get it over and done with.
Painting a picture of creepy crawlys with sharp teeth does not benifit anyone. It has the opposite effect, it is used as a means to scare folks.
It does nothing to take away fear, but it engulfs one in fear instead.

"By the fear of the Lord, men depart from evil." Proverbs 16:6

Or in a more fun version, the first 5 seconds:

YouTube - Petra - Judas' Kiss

 

[Tariki]

There are some sober and sensible schools of thought about this suject.
A subject which may not be often delved into, for other reasons than to get it over and done with. All thought of this kind of thing will only hamper ones life. One thing is for sure, it is wrong to use it as a carrot on a stick.
Painting a picture of creepy crawlys with sharp teeth does not benifit anyone. It has the opposite effect, it is used as a means to scare folks.
It does nothing to take away fear, but it engulfs one in fear instead.

Thanks Robban, for me the best post so far, far surpassing my own verbose waffle.......though perhaps the "Odious Tunes" quip by Dharma Wheel deserves serious mention.

And very "Buddhist" in its own way, considering the idea of acinteyya, or that which "cannot or should not be thought", the unthinkable, incomprehensible, impenetrable, that which transcends the limit of thinking which therefore one should not ponder. Such includes "karma-result" (kamma-vipaka)

Even more so, given the two takes on the two Greek words aionos kolasis (translated as "eternal torment" in the KJV) found in this thread. So we have Jesus speaking Aramaic, reported and written down in Greek, then perhaps there were a few Latin detours thrown in to be taken into consideration, then into English. Ah! the "treacherous sea of language" indeed, yet apparently chosen by the Deity to communicate with "man".

 

[Arthra]

In re. the opening post according to Origen the early Christian theologian hell was not eternal..

"Origen did not believe in the eternal suffering of sinners in hell. For him, all souls, including the devil himself, will eventually achieve salvation, even if it takes innumerable ages to do so"

Origen of Alexandria[bless and do not curse][Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

The Baha'i view of hell is that it means being estranged from God..

Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha regard the descriptions of Heaven and Hell given in some of the older religious writings as symbolic, like the Biblical story of the Creation, and not as literally true. According to Them, Heaven is the state of perfection, and Hell that of imperfection; Heaven is harmony with God's will and with our fellows, and Hell is the want of such harmony; Heaven is the condition of spiritual life, and Hell that of spiritual death. A man may be either in Heaven or in Hell while still in the body. The joys of Heaven are spiritual joys; and the pains of Hell consist in the deprivation of these joys.

- "Baha'u'llah and the New Era" Chapter Eleven by J.E. Esslemont

 

[hikersong]

"The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough

I thought maybe some others here might find this interesting?

It's odd that many Christians feel that they are being unfaithful to the "truth" if they don't believe in an eternal tortuous hell...rather than one that has any real sense of justice for righted wrongs and manages to be at least a little compatible with the idea of a loving God.

Part of me feels sorry for them. It's an horrific vision to hold onto which is bound to corrupt their thinking and their emotional development. But I cease to feel sorry for them when they try and pass that lie onto their children...that, as I have said before, is simply abuse. It angers me tremendously and I have little patience with the eejuts who mess with vulnerable minds.

Anyway Ray. I've sort of gathered that you don't believe in that sort of Hell. But for what it's worth, if I thought there was an afterlife, I would hope that there is some form of justice for the wrong doer and some sort of compensation to those who had suffered the most.

As far as my own life is concerned I already feel compensated or potentially compensated by the world I live in and the opportunities I have. Though in the past it felt more like I was being punished. It would be nice to think that I could have shot at trying out other lives...up to a point. My only frustration with this life these days is that there are so many things I would like to do...and so little time. It's easy to see how the idea of an eternal afterlife developed.

The happy news is that I am not the slightest bit concerned about going to hell after I die. Which is great, because the thought terrified the life out of me in the past. And by that I mean, I lived my life as a shadowy fragment of the person I became when I gradually dumped the whole stupid, bullying concept.

 

[Deleteriousnonsense]

Can you imagine darkness. Aloneness. Just you and your regrets, and the nothingness. Just you, and your regrets, and the nothingness. Just you, and your regrets, and the nothingness. But there is a remedy for those who believe themselves their own god. Lift yourself up. From yourself, and your regrets, and your nothingness. Can you do it without loving another? I doubt it.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Can you imagine darkness. Aloneness. Just you and your regrets, and the nothingness.

No. I can see no reason why I would ever experience only this.

But there is a remedy for those who believe themselves their own god.

Who does believe this? Not many, I'd guess.

Lift yourself up. From yourself, and your regrets, and your nothingness. Can you do it without loving another?

I don't see why not.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[hikersong]

Can you imagine darkness. Aloneness. Just you and your regrets, and the nothingness. Just you, and your regrets, and the nothingness. Just you, and your regrets, and the nothingness. But there is a remedy for those who believe themselves their own god. Lift yourself up. From yourself, and your regrets, and your nothingness. Can you do it without loving another? I doubt it.

I've certainly been through times and unbearable moments that felt totally dark and where i felt totally alone. I wouldn't wish those experiences on my worst enemy.

Looking away from oneself and caring for how others feel is what begins to happen after we learn to value ourselves. Imagining dark places and being alone probably shouldn't make up a significant part of that learning experience.

 

[Nooj]

Cthulhu approves of your insight. You're still on the dinner menu, though. He loves all of us.


Iä! Iä!

Mark

Get to the back of the line, I'm going to be eaten first!

 

[Tariki]

Well even in the darkest version, the reality of Eternal Life will not contain suffering ... (yes it is a strain on the brain to conceive how)

raze,

I remember from my own ancient fundamentalist days, asking one of the more elder of the brethren, "how can we be happy in heaven when we know that others we have loved are suffering in hell?". He said something like...."When I want any sort of answer I turn to the Bible. It says that He shall wipe every tear from the eye. I don't know how He's going to do it, but I believe it."