Hell

[Der Alte]

God did NOT say "dying until dead!"

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. [Heb. מות תמות, lit. dying you shall die]​

Adam did not live more than a thousand years.

So what? I did not state or imply otherwise. How does this address my post?

 

[Der Alte]

Can you explain how someone who is supposedly a gentile has a Hebrew name? Lazarus is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew אלעזר/Elazar, "God is helper" If Luke 16:19-31 is a parable where does Jesus explain to his disciples the meaning?

Jesus only spoke to the multitudes in parables, Matt 13:10, 13, 34, Mar 4;11, Luk 8:10. In Luke 16 he was addressing his disciples, there was no need for him to speak in parables.

Luk 16:1 And he [Jesus] said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.

Luk 17:1 Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!​

Before and immediately after the story of Lazarus and the rich man Jesus was talking to his disciples.

"In the bosom of" refers to the place of honor at a meal or feast. At that time people ate reclining on their left elbow with their feet extended away from the table. The place of honor was immediately in front of the host. That is why John laid his head on Jesus breast and Mary was able to wash his feet with her hair. Women did not crawl around under a table of strange men.

so what's the purpose of this literal story then? Let's get down to it... what's the purpose?

since you want this story to be literal please tell me; if you were aflame would you also ask for a drop of water on your tongue? and if so, what do you think water on the tongue accomplished for a person who is aflame?

Notice, once again you do NOT address anything I post, just "Yeah, well what about this?, "Yeah, well what about that?" You claimed that Lazarus was supposed to be a gentile in this story but cannot explain how a gentile has a Hebrew name

Almost a year ago I had abdominal surgery. Recovering I could not have anything by mouth for more than 2 weeks. My MDs got upset because I was sucking on a small chip of ice. Would you expect a person being tormented in flames to be completely logical? Based on my experiencing intense thirst for 2 weeks I see nothing incredulous about a man being tormented in flames asking for water even a tiny drop of water.

Unless Jesus or one of the disciples had said the story of Lazarus and the rich man was a parable and explained it, I believe that Jesus said what he meant and meant what he said. Without such clarification or explanation if Abraham was not in that place and did not say the words that Jesus quoted, Jesus is a liar.

And OBTW this is known as "historical evidence" from native Greek speaking early church leaders.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.

1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1

On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.

Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]

In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.

The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics

A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.

Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)

But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

 

[Der Alte]

Isaiah 14:3-11 NASB
And it will be in the day when the LORD gives you rest from your pain and turmoil and harsh service in which you have been enslaved,that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say, “How the oppressor has ceased, And how fury has ceased!“The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of rulers Which used to strike the peoples in fury with unceasing strokes, Which subdued the nations in anger with unrestrained persecution. “The whole earth is at rest and is quiet; They break forth into shouts of joy. “Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no tree cutter comes up against us.’ “Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. “They will all respond and say to you, ‘Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us. ‘Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.’​

In context, this is a taunt to the King of Babylon. The taunt is "You will die!"

In context you are wrong as usual. The king of Babylon had already died. I have highlighted everything in the passage which is or possibly could be literal in red. We know that the king of Babylon literally died, he was literally buried and the worms literally covered his body. Let us read the Jewish Publication Society translation of this passage and a comment from the Jewish encyclopedia about it.

JPS Isa 14:4-11
(4) that thou shalt take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say: How hath the oppressor ceased! the exactress of gold ceased!
(5) The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, the sceptre of the rulers,
(6) That smote the peoples in wrath with an incessant stroke, that ruled the nations in anger, with a persecution that none restrained.
(7) The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet; they break forth into singing.
(8) Yea, the cypresses rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon: 'Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.'
(9) The nether-world from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; the shades are stirred up for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; all the kings of the nations are raised up from their thrones.
(10) All they do answer and say unto thee: 'Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?
(11) Thy pomp is brought down to the nether-world, and the noise of thy psalteries; the maggot is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Jewish Encyclopedia -Gehenna

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA​

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[Der Alte]

I didn't guess about what happened to Adam, I quoted Genesis 5:5, Adam died.

So we agree that some bible passages are figures of speech.
How do you know that the passages in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 32 are literal?
The plain sense of those passages is that they are poetic.

Wrong again, as usual! The "plain sense" is the literal interpretation! "Poetic" would be a non-literal interpretation. Nothing can be "plain sense" and "poetic" at the same time! You approach to scripture appears to be anything which contradicts your false assumptions/presuppositions is SPAM-Fig, as with Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 32.

So what scriptural, historical, lexical, or grammatical evidence can you produce to support your assumptions/presuppositions about Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 32. So far all I have seen is , "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!" You haven't even thrown the usual verses from Proverbs at me, where many folks try to make the poetic, proverbial language of Proverbs, literal, and the "Thus saith the Lord" of Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 32 , poetic, etc.

 

[Der Alte]

Notice that even the trees talk.

And your point is? Jesus said that stones would cry out, does that make everything he said a figure of speech? If the plain sense makes good sense, then it it nonsense to look for any other sense. Since trees are inanimate and cannot speak, the plain sense, as written, is nonsense so we look for another, i.e. poetic, metaphorical, etc., sense. The only report back from the dead we have are the words of the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. So we cannot assume that it is not literal when God says the dead in Sheol rise up and speak to the king of Babylon when he dies.

 

[Timothew]

And your point is? Jesus said that stones would cry out, does that make everything he said a figure of speech? If the plain sense makes good sense, then it it nonsense to look for any other sense. Since trees are inanimate and cannot speak, the plain sense, as written, is nonsense so we look for another, i.e. poetic, metaphorical, etc., sense. The only report back from the dead we have are the words of the rich man in Luke 16:19-31. So we cannot assume that it is not literal when God says the dead in Sheol rise up and speak to the king of Babylon when he dies.

The trees talk, the plain sense of this is poetic, NOT literal. This is IN the passage that YOU say is to be taken literally. Unless trees really do talk in your little world, this passage is NOT literal. Since we know part of the passage is NOT literal, we CANNOT ASSUME the rest of the passage IS literal. Especially since, if you insist on taking this passage literally, it contradicts the rest of the bible.

You can say "does so, yeah huh!" until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the facts. Trees don't talk. Dead people don't walk and talk.

The PARABLE of Lazarus and the rich man is a PARABLE, not a news report on the condition of the afterlife.

What you say is "plain sense" contradicts the rest of the bible. Perhaps you should look for another sense.

 

[Timothew]

And so far, all I've seen from you is:

"I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!"

I have never said that, except to quote you saying that.

 

[Der Alte]

The trees talk, the plain sense of this is poetic, NOT literal. This is IN the passage that YOU say is to be taken literally. Unless trees really do talk in your little world, this passage is NOT literal. Since we know part of the passage is NOT literal, we CANNOT ASSUME the rest of the passage IS literal. Especially since, if you insist on taking this passage literally, it contradicts the rest of the bible.

You are not even reading what I post. I said that the trees speaking was a figure of speech! BUT that is NOT license to make anything else in the passage a figure of speech! Where does Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 32 spoken by God, Himself, contradict any other verse where God, himself is speaking? They do NOT! Jesus said that the stones would cry out, does that mean everything he ever said was a figure of speech? His death, burial, and resurrection certainly was not a figure of speech. So one figure of speech in a verse does NOT prove anything else to be a figure of speech.

You claim that we cannot assume that the rest of the passage is literal. Question did the king of Babylon literally die? Was he literally buried? Did the worms literally cover his body? Did his kingdom literally rejoice because the evil king had died? Virtually everything in the passage is literal except for one sentence about trees talking! I proved that from the Jewish Encyclopedia!

You can say "does so, yeah huh!" until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the facts. Trees don't talk. Dead people don't walk and talk.

You don't know what happens beyond the grave, nobody does but both Jesus and God told us that the dead in Sheol/Hades move, speak, have knowledge, etc.

The PARABLE of Lazarus and the rich man is a PARABLE, not a news report on the condition of the afterlife.
What you say is "plain sense" contradicts the rest of the bible. Perhaps you should look for another sense.

I back up what I say with evidence all you do is repeat your false assumptions/presuppositions over and over and over!

 

[Timothew]

I back up what I say with evidence all you do is repeat your false assumptions/presuppositions over and over and over!

No, you haven't provided any evidence. You have asserted that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 32 are meant to be taken literally concerning the activities of the dead. For your assertion to be meaningful, it must be backed up by evidence.

You said that it is a SPAM-fig copout to state that the prophets words could be taken as figures of speech, I have proven that the prophets do use figures of speech. This is NOT a false assumption or a presupposition.

People in Sheol use maggots for beds and worms for covers? This is what you demand that I take literally? Don't you think it makes more sense to say that this is a metaphor for death? It's just like Clemenza says in the Godfather, "It's a Sicilian message. It means Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes."