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LittleLambofJesus

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My husband and I read the story of the rich man and lazerus(SP?). Me being a huge tea drinker, I couldn't ever imagine a day without it. But the text of the scripture leads us to believe that the rich man was very thirsty.

By the way, thanks for the awesome responses. You all are great.
I have a few threads on that covenantle parable if thou art interested.
Btw, welcome to CF and the GT "Den of Lions" board :wave:

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

http://www.christianforums.com/t7458936-14/#post54510139
"for I am having 5 brothers...." Luke 16:28

http://www.christianforums.com/t7436472-2/#post54015375
Luke 16:26 and the great "chasm/gulf".
 
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Son of Israel

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Hello Brandy
You sure seem like a dear :)

Tim nailed this topic on the head actually. I can only add to it to assuage any fears concerning “hell” and the ideas of eternal torture associated with it.
I am also a deep devout Christian. Christ in me is my everything!
I also love truth and knowledge and wisdom and understanding.
and in truth, I will go to hell. My body will anyway. Yep, everyone goes to hell.

It is the “grave”.
Jesus was there in that grave with the stone rolled in front of it for three days. He was in “hell”. That is why you read;

(Act 2:31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

We are living souls. When we die, we are dead souls. It is really that simple.
Jesus’ dead soul was three days in hell.
He was dead. Not breathing. Not thinking. Not anything. Dead. In hell.
He suffered that death so that we don’t have to!
Then He was raised up out of hell just like he said he would.

When one reads of "hell" and studies it out of scriptures with a little help from a concordance and some prayer, God isn't going to hide what it is. And it most certainly is NOT what you hear from “hellfire and damnation” type teachers.

As Tim led into earlier…
In the O.T. it was "sheol" meaning "grave".
In the KJV sometimes it was translated "grave". But other times for some reason, that same hebrew word was translated "hell".

So we are dealing with a translation issue right off the bat.

Now some people have a pre-conceived "eternal torture" concept of “hell” handed down to them from their parents or their church or some pagan or a "denominational seminary institute" where they bought the “eternal torture” idea. So now, of course, when they read the word "hell", they don't think of it as "grave". They think of it according to what their school taught them.


But it isn’t that way! It is easy to look up too. A couple examples where the translators didn’t translate in good faith…
The word "sheol" occurs in both these places;

(Psa 49:15) But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

But here it is translated "hell";

(Pro 23:14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

See how the two different words spontaneously trigger a different picture of meaning in your mind? Yet there is no actual difference. It is the same original word! Why did they do that?? It just doesn’t seem fair does it lol. Makes us have to work a little, we don’t wanna work at it lol!

The people in Jesus’ day, just like in our day, believed in the supernatural. That is the easy thing to do. It doesn’t take study to believe in tradition.

God’s people weren’t supposed to depart from His guidance, but they did. They picked up all sorts of supernatural nonsense from the witches, wizards soothsayers and necromancesrs while in Babylon. Eventually, this “other nations” paganism that crept into Judahism caused the presence of a new concept to the Bible reader in New Testament times by associating the word "hell" with "fire".

Now we are left to sort it out… and what a blessing when we do!

Truth will set us free on this issue. It will cause us to see God in a new and much more glorious light of love and mercy and compassion.

As we tackle this topic in the N.T., we have another problem with the same topic, only in the opposite direction.
In the O.T. remember, the original word "sheol" got translated into two different english words... “grave” and “hell”.
But in the N.T. TWO different Greek words were translated into ONE English word lol.

Crazy translators anyway.
There is actually a third word also that occurs once, but it is another subject altogether. But consider the two main Greek words...


Greek "Hades" was always understood as "grave". (until later when the greeks "olympisized it" lol).
But there is ANOTHER Greek word that ALSO gets translated "hell" and that word is "gehenna".

Now we have the opposite problem from what the O.T. did to us when the translators butchered up this topic for us.

Gehenna was a perpetually burning dump outside the walls of jerusalem where animal carcases and trash were burnt in an "ever-burning" garbage pile. It was full of worms yechhh. They also desposed of the bodies of criminals there.
It was really important to Jews to be buried in their family plots and not be thrown out into that burning place where the smoke arose continously from generation to generation, or "everlasting fires". Back then the Resurrection hadn’t come yet, so they felt it important to keep their dead bodies at hand in family plots.


Jesus referred to "gehenna" everlasting fire a lot in His Parables. It was a good visual incentive to get His point across, namely; that we who don't believe in Him are destined for as ignomious an end as criminals and animals burnt in the "everlasting fires of gehenna". The dump outside of Jerusalem.
The fact that greek word “gehenna” is translated "hell" just as is the greek word "hades" can really confuse someone! That is why it is important to search it out and care to just take that next baby step in searching out the hidden things of God.

So NO dear friend! Don't worry about people being aware in death and being tortured and all that nonsensical pagan "eternal fire" kind of gehenna thing!


Besides, you show yourself a very sweet Jesus loving person, your destination is eternal life :)
Eternal life is a gift. It is only something that those who are forever with Jesus receive.
(Rom 6:23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eternal Life is a gift. No one else has awareness after they die. Only those in Christ have life. Only they are alive and aware for ever. And a glorious alive forever it is :)
But those friends and family you may have known who died, never having received Jesus, fear not that they suffer in torment! Jesus is not that kind of God. In the grave (hell) they have no knowledge of anything anymore;

(Ecc 9:10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Blessings in Christ forever!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Achilles6129

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Tim nailed this topic on the head actually. I can only add to it to assuage any fears concerning “hell” and the ideas of eternal torture associated with it.
I am also a deep devout Christian. Christ in me is my everything!
I also love truth and knowledge and wisdom and understanding.
and in truth, I will go to hell. My body will anyway. Yep, everyone goes to hell.
It is the “grave”.
Jesus was there in that grave with the stone rolled in front of it for three days. He was in “hell”. That is why you read;

(Act 2:31) He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

You are wrong here. The "hell" being referred to in this verse is not the grave that Christ was in, but rather Hades, which is the place of the dead spirits. Peter talks about this as well.

We are living souls. When we die, we are dead souls. It is really that simple.
Jesus’ dead soul was three days in hell.
He was dead. Not breathing. Not thinking. Not anything. Dead. In hell.
He suffered that death so that we don’t have to!
Then He was raised up out of hell just like he said he would.


His soul left Hades, and was reunited with his body in the grave.

When one reads of "hell" and studies it out of scriptures with a little help from a concordance and some prayer, God isn't going to hide what it is. And it most certainly is NOT what you hear from “hellfire and damnation” type teachers.

Actually, it is just that. The "hell" that you are thinking of is Gehenna. Gehenna is used by Jesus Christ because it was a place where the OT Jews used to take their garbage to burn it. It is simply described as a lake of fire and brimstone:

"15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:15

"30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Mt. 13:30

"42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Mt. 13:42

"41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Mt. 25:41

"8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 2 Th. 1:8

As Tim led into earlier…
In the O.T. it was "sheol" meaning "grave".
In the KJV sometimes it was translated "grave". But other times for some reason, that same hebrew word was translated "hell".
So we are dealing with a translation issue right off the bat.


An issue with the English translation, but not the Greek. In the NT it's either Hades, Gehenna, or Tartarus. The "hell" that most people think of is actually Gehenna.

Now some people have a pre-conceived "eternal torture" concept of “hell” handed down to them from their parents or their church or some pagan or a "denominational seminary institute" where they bought the “eternal torture” idea. So now, of course, when they read the word "hell", they don't think of it as "grave". They think of it according to what their school taught them.

The eternal torture concept is 100% correct, because an eternal crime has been committed. If an infinite crime has been committed, then the punishment is also infinite.

Greek "Hades" was always understood as "grave". (until later when the greeks "olympisized it" lol).

No, it was not always understood as "grave." "Hades" was always understood as the land of the dead, i.e., the place where your soul/spirit goes when you die. Not the grave. See Hades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



So NO dear friend! Don't worry about people being aware in death and being tortured and all that nonsensical pagan "eternal fire" kind of gehenna thing!

Actually, yes, people will be aware, and there is eternal torture simply because an infinite crime has been committed. How else could someone "weep and gnash their teeth" unless they were aware? What of the dragon/beast/false prophet, who are cast into the lake of fire and brimstone and tormented day and night for all eternity? What of this:

"10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Rev. 14:10-11

Etc., etc. Eternal torment is real, and the lake of fire and brimstone is real. And nothing is going to change that.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus

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Son of Israel

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There's an example now Brandy lol.
I see Achilles' heel...

He assumed Jesus wasn't dead when in the grave/hades but somewhere else alive. Talk about rendering scripture to no affect.
He lists scripture that says nothing of "eternal torment", then finishes with his own conclusion that they all "mean" eternal torment.
You can see the carnal reasoning process at work there. It struggles in attempting to force scripture to fit its pre-conceived pagan doctrines.
THAT is what to beware of Brandy.
Blessings in Christ :)
 
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Pythons

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Hello Brandy
We are living souls. When we die, we are dead souls. It is really that simple.
Jesus’ dead soul was three days in hell.
He was dead. Not breathing. Not thinking. Not anything. Dead. In hell.
He suffered that death so that we don’t have to!
Then He was raised up out of hell just like he said he would.

When one reads of "hell" and studies it out of scriptures with a little help from a concordance and some prayer, God isn't going to hide what it is. And it most certainly is NOT what you hear from “hellfire and damnation” type teachers.

As Tim led into earlier…
In the O.T. it was "sheol" meaning "grave".
In the KJV sometimes it was translated "grave". But other times for some reason, that same hebrew word was translated "hell".
So we are dealing with a translation issue right off the bat.

Now some people have a pre-conceived "eternal torture" concept of “hell” handed down to them from their parents or their church or some pagan or a "denominational seminary institute" where they bought the “eternal torture” idea. So now, of course, when they read the word "hell", they don't think of it as "grave". They think of it according to what their school taught them.

But it isn’t that way! It is easy to look up too. A couple examples where the translators didn’t translate in good faith…
The word "sheol" occurs in both these places;

(Psa 49:15) But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

But here it is translated "hell";

(Pro 23:14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

See how the two different words spontaneously trigger a different picture of meaning in your mind? Yet there is no actual difference. It is the same original word! Why did they do that?? It just doesn’t seem fair does it lol. Makes us have to work a little, we don’t wanna work at it lol!

The people in Jesus’ day, just like in our day, believed in the supernatural. That is the easy thing to do. It doesn’t take study to believe in tradition.
God’s people weren’t supposed to depart from His guidance, but they did. They picked up all sorts of supernatural nonsense from the witches, wizards soothsayers and necromancesrs while in Babylon. Eventually, this “other nations” paganism that crept into Judahism caused the presence of a new concept to the Bible reader in New Testament times by associating the word "hell" with "fire".

Now we are left to sort it out… and what a blessing when we do!

Truth will set us free on this issue. It will cause us to see God in a new and much more glorious light of love and mercy and compassion.

As we tackle this topic in the N.T., we have another problem with the same topic, only in the opposite direction.
In the O.T. remember, the original word "sheol" got translated into two different english words... “grave” and “hell”.
But in the N.T. TWO different Greek words were translated into ONE English word lol.
Crazy translators anyway.
There is actually a third word also that occurs once, but it is another subject altogether. But consider the two main Greek words...


Greek "Hades" was always understood as "grave". (until later when the greeks "olympisized it" lol).
But there is ANOTHER Greek word that ALSO gets translated "hell" and that word is "gehenna".
Now we have the opposite problem from what the O.T. did to us when the translators butchered up this topic for us.

Gehenna was a perpetually burning dump outside the walls of jerusalem where animal carcases and trash were burnt in an "ever-burning" garbage pile. It was full of worms yechhh. They also desposed of the bodies of criminals there.
It was really important to Jews to be buried in their family plots and not be thrown out into that burning place where the smoke arose continously from generation to generation, or "everlasting fires". Back then the Resurrection hadn’t come yet, so they felt it important to keep their dead bodies at hand in family plots.


Jesus referred to "gehenna" everlasting fire a lot in His Parables. It was a good visual incentive to get His point across, namely; that we who don't believe in Him are destined for as ignomious an end as criminals and animals burnt in the "everlasting fires of gehenna". The dump outside of Jerusalem.
The fact that greek word “gehenna” is translated "hell" just as is the greek word "hades" can really confuse someone! That is why it is important to search it out and care to just take that next baby step in searching out the hidden things of God.

So NO dear friend! Don't worry about people being aware in death and being tortured and all that nonsensical pagan "eternal fire" kind of gehenna thing!

Besides, you show yourself a very sweet Jesus loving person, your destination is eternal life :)
Eternal life is a gift. It is only something that those who are forever with Jesus receive.
(Rom 6:23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eternal Life is a gift. No one else has awareness after they die. Only those in Christ have life. Only they are alive and aware for ever. And a glorious alive forever it is :)
But those friends and family you may have known who died, never having received Jesus, fear not that they suffer in torment! Jesus is not that kind of God. In the grave (hell) they have no knowledge of anything anymore;

(Ecc 9:10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Blessings in Christ forever!


Son of Israel, do you also believe that Scripture teaches that prior to the Incarnation....
....Christ was "Michael the archangel"?

The understanding of the state between death and Resurrection you promulgate is "Adventist".....
...Adventist being Christadelphians, JW, WWCOG and SDA.

This is why I ask you this question.
 
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Son of Israel

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Son of Israel, do you also believe that Scripture teaches that prior to the Incarnation....
....Christ was "Michael the archangel"?

The understanding of the state between death and Resurrection you promulgate is "Adventist".....
...Adventist being Christadelphians, JW, WWCOG and SDA.

This is why I ask you this question.

Hi pythons.
“State between death and resurrection”? What “state” would that be? A curious question. Me? Promulgate? lol. If asked, I would have given an answer in the twinkling of an eye lol. No I’m not an Adventist. I don’t belong to any sect actually. I’m just surrounded with my texts and wait upon the Holy Spirit :) I go where He sends me whenever. It is a simple life. One that doesn’t know of “a state between death and resurrection” lol. If you want to share what state exists between death and resurrection, I’m all ears :) I didn't know there was one anymore.

(1Jn 3:2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

That is my next "state" once this body croaks.

Concerning Michael, I have lots of time put into looking at Him. He is most certainly Christ. It is easy to expound if you ever want to see it. Charles Spurgeon, Matthew Henry and many other scholars discerned Michael as Christ also.
Just one example here for now, Michael receives worship from men.

(Jos 5:14) And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

No angels ever receive worship except Michael. Who else receives worship besides Michael?

(Mat 28:9) And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Michael is easily identified as being Jesus, when a few texts are compared, but I'll save that for another time and place. Why do you ask Pythons? How do you see it as relating to "adventists"? Who do you think Michael is? Is this the thread for it? If you'd like to start a thread on it I'll visit :)
 
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Zeek

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The final destiny of those who deny the L-rd is not Hell, it is the Lake of Fire....Hell for the Unbeliever it seems is a soul-destroying holding place, waiting for the inevitable. (although any understanding we have is sketchy at best...but sufficiently terrible to make us desire to avoid it at all costs...)

Rev 20:11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 122And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 133And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 144Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The Lake of Fire does not represent anihilation, but is evidently a locatable destination in the spiritual realm, from which there is no hope of escape, and where the Devil, the Beast and the False prophet will be permanently sealed along with all those that have drunk from the chalice of their lies and deceit.
 
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scion

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The Greek word Hades is the equivalent of the Hebrew word Sheol. In comparing the Masoretic Texts with the Septuagint, Hades appears where Sheol does.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.


Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave (sheol), whither thou goest.

Hades is clearly not a place of judgment as Revelation 20:13 shows.

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell
(hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

There those in hades are delivered to be judged.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell
(hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So hades is not the lake of fire nor is it the second death.
 
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