Hell.

[Sketcher]

YI'd like to hear from you what Hell is. Until then, I'll be telling you the problems I had with the assumption that Hell is a fiery pit of doom.

Hell as Jesus described it is "Outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matt. 8:12, 22:13, 25:30) The concept being that God is holy - too holy to be around sin and those who have sin. You can be in his presence, or out of his presence. If you're sinful, you're out of his presence. If you love him and are pure, you may be in his presence. Since we all fall short of God's standard of holiness, he made a way for our sin debts to be paid for and for our sins to be taken away. We take that way, we get to be in God's presence. We don't, we get the separation that we deserve.

Now, about the fire and darkness and all that unpleasantness: These are metaphors. We cannot imagine Heaven or Hell in the literal sense, so we are given metaphors to give us enough of an idea of where we'd rather be. The pain described by fire, the regret by weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc. But why is it like that? It goes back to the issue of separation. In addition to being holy, God is the sun if you will, of all that is good. Joy, creativity, comfort, you name it. We get a little bit of that here on Earth (coincidentally, this is our chance to get right with him). But in Hell, God has completely rejected those who live there. They do not get God's favor, and the benefits that come with it.

If I convert and go to Heaven, the majority of people I love will still be going to Hell. This is a major problem for me. This is on the assumption that if you don't believe, you go to Hell. Even if that's not the case, then it's quite possible that people I love will go to Hell while I go to Heaven. That makes me feel rather sad and sick. I can't imagine being happy knowing that my loved ones are suffering for eternity. I'd much rather go to Hell for them, or at least with them. It was this thought that gave me an insight into why Christians feel a need to "save" people. I find it heartwrenching that even a stranger will go to Hell.

That is why we desire to save people. But know this: Anybody you love who would go to hell would not wish hell upon you. It's not like those stories where two or more people go through a horrible experience and take comfort in knowing they have each other. There is no comfort in hell of any sort.

Natural disasters. When God sends a tidal wave that kills lots and lots of people they're going one of two places - Heaven or Hell. Either they were all good people and went to Heaven, or some or most or (for the sake of completeness) all went to Hell. He judged them before they even died "naturally" (e.g. old age, murder, accident). Another "it's not fair" problem, although of a different flavour.

Well, this I can say: If anybody, even most or all of the people in that tidal wave go to Hell, it is more God's problem than mine or yours. Neither of us bled for these people. Neither of us was grossly mistreated for them. Neither of us gave our lives for them. The Lord did, though. Jesus suffered and died to take away the sins of all who would believe so they wouldn't have to go to Hell. God the Father sent the Son for this express purpose. And Scripture tells us that for every sinner who repents, a party is thrown in Heaven. So since it is God who also condemns, I leave the matter to him. It is more in his interest to save these people than it is in your interest or my interest.

 

[Bible2]

mcflooble:
I'd like to hear from you what Hell is.

There are two literal hells, one temporary and one eternal. The temporary hell, called Hades in the Greek and Sheol in the Hebrew, is where unsaved people go now when they die, and where they are tormented by flame (Luke 16:23-24, not a parable). Hades was also the place where saved people went after they died, before the first coming of Christ. But for the saved it was not a hellish place, for the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Luke 16:25). After Christ's resurrection, he went down and took all of the saved souls in Hades up into heaven with him (Ephesians 4:8-9; 1 Peter 3:19, 4:6). Ever since that time when saved people die they go directly into heaven to be with Christ (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Ultimately, all unsaved people will be resurrected out of Hades and judged and cast into the eternal hell (Gehenna) of the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15, not symbolic) where they will be tormented with the devil and his angels in fire and brimstone forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46, not symbolic).

Infinite torment seems awfully excessive for a finite lifetime's worth of sin.

It's not how long people sin that makes them liable for infinite punishment, but the infinite importance of the one whom they sin against: God (Psalms 51:4).

If I convert and go to Heaven, the majority of people I love will still be going to Hell.

We have to love Christ even more than we love other people (Matthew 10:37). We must not make sinful, infinitesimal humans more important than the infinite and perfectly holy God (Isaiah 40:17).

I can't imagine being happy knowing that my loved ones are suffering for eternity.

It will be possible to be happy, because in the presence of God is fullness of joy (Psalms 16:11); your love for him can outweigh everything else (Philippians 3:8, Luke 14:26).

When God sends a tidal wave that kills lots and lots of people they're going one of two places - Heaven or Hell. Either they were all good people and went to Heaven, or some or most or (for the sake of completeness) all went to Hell. He judged them before they even died "naturally" (e.g. old age, murder, accident).

How is death by tidal wave an unnatural, unfair death, while death by old age, murder or accident is a natural, fair death?

what's the difference between asking for forgiveness in this life or the next?

God almost always draws the line at death (1 John 5:16). Also, those who were never granted a saving faith in this life (as in, before they died for good), will not be granted it in the next, because they were created by God and never granted a saving faith in this life precisely so that they would end up going to hell for their sins, so that through them God would have the opportunity to eternally show his wrath and make his power known (Romans 9:21-22).

Why do we exist on Earth at all if God knows whether we'll end up believing or not?

Those who become believers were created so that through them God would have the opportunity to eternally show his mercy, glory and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10).

It doesn't seem like such a bad place anymore.

Hell is an extremely bad place, so bad it is the reason that we need to fear God (Luke 12:5). Wickedness arises from not fearing God (Psalms 36:1). People depart from sin because they fear God (Proverbs 16:6).

I'm referring to God's love having different effects on the people "in Heaven" and "in Hell"

The people in hell are not suffering under the effect of God's love, but under the effects of his hatred and wrath (Romans 9:13,22, John 3:36).

I mean why not follow Satan, other than the fact it's wrong?

Those who follow Satan will end up with him in the eternal torment of the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10,15, 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, not symbolic).

So no doubt one of the things that Satan would most love people to think is that there is no literal hell.

If anyone doesn't have the patience to answer me because of that then fair enough, they're not obliged to post.

Christians should answer questions posed to them by non-Christians (1 Peter 3:15; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

I won't hold any of these posts as the authoritive word

The only authoritative Word is what the Bible itself says (2 Timothy 3:16-4:4).

Try reading at least a little of the Bible for yourself every day. Start at the Gospel of John and try to read at least one chapter every day. For "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17).

 

[Christos Anesti]

"I can't imagine being happy knowing that my loved ones are suffering for eternity. "
​

It will be possible to be happy, because in the presence of God is fullness of joy (Psalms 16:11); your love for him can outweigh everything else (Philippians 3:8, Luke 14:26).

Love could not bear the suffering of others. To claim that this wouldn't cause sadness in a compassionate heart doesn't make sense to me.

This is from the biography of St Silouan the Athonite:

"I remember a conversation between [the monk Silouan] and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, "God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire."

Obviously upset, the Staretz [the Elder -- Silouan] said, "Tell me, supposing you went to paradise, and then looked down and saw somebody burning in hellfire -- would you feel happy?"

"It can't be helped. It would be their own fault," said the hermit.

The Startez answer him with a sorrowful countenance.

"Love could not bear that," he said. "We must pray for all."

And he did, indeed, pray for all."

​

because they were created by God and never granted a saving faith in this life precisely so that they would end up going to hell for their sins, so that through them God would have the opportunity to eternally show his wrath and make his power known

​

That is blasphemy against the Merciful Lord. The Lord does not wish that anyone should perish. The Lord is not a monster who delights in creating people with the sole intent of torturing them forever. The Lord doesn't NEED to show his power in that manner. The Lords power is in meekness , kenosis, and self sacrafice - the power of Love. He died for us when we were yet sinners. He taught us to emulate Him by turning the other cheak and gladly accepting curses, persecution, and death. That is Gods mode of behaivor as well.

 

[Christos Anesti]

"Just because the terms 'wrath', 'anger', 'hatred' and the rest are used of the Creator in the Bible, we should not imagine that He actually does anything in anger, hatred or zeal. Many figurative terms are used of God in the Scriptures, terms which are far removed from His true nature. Among all God's actions there is none which is not entirely a matter of mercy, love and compassion: this constitutes the beginning and end of His dealing with us."

St Isaac the Syrian

 

[aiki]

Bible2 has the correct, biblical view. I agree with him.

Peace.

 

[mcflooble]

How is death by tidal wave an unnatural, unfair death, while death by old age, murder or accident is a natural, fair death?

I meant death from God alone (the natural disaster) compared to death because of other people (where He can't interfere with their free will).

Old age doesn't fit, but seems fairer because it would happen to everyone with everything else being equal, and with warning.

Also, there are some people saying the things you say are symbolic while others say they aren't. How do you decide what is symbolic and what isn't? (this question is out there for anyone to answer)

 

[ebia]

How do you decide what is symbolic and what isn't? (this question is out there for anyone to answer)

By hard work, by looking carefully at the language, by looking at history/other texts of the period or that we being widely read in the period to see how the phrase would have been heard by the original audience.

In the end all language is symbolic, and working out at what levels and how the symbols work is a matter of hard work, discernment and inevitably a degree of ambiguity.

In the end most (not all) of the texts relating to 'hell' are clearly pretty symbolic at the obvious level - people are not literally the shells from around wheat kernals or bits cut off an olive-tree or grape-vine and the dead do not literally go to the rubbish heap just outside ancient Jerusalem. Most of the time the question is not really "are the text symbolic or literal" but "what is the reality to which the symbols refer".

 

[ephraimanesti]

Also, there are some people saying the things you say are symbolic while others say they aren't. How do you decide what is symbolic and what isn't? (this question is out there for anyone to answer)

MY BROTHER,

Again, i hold that it is in your best interests to get your information straight from Scripture--not processed through individual belief-systems and world views.

In any event, i arrived at MY viewpoint that Scriptural descriptions of hell are primary allegorical and symbolic--although none the less terrifying, to my mind--by extrapolating from the overarchings Truth that "GOD IS LOVE" (I John 4:8).

In my opinion God's gift of freewill means that we are responsible for the consequences of our choices which God has allowed us to freely make. If a person freely chooses to deny or ignore God, than a fitting consequence would be in line with that choice--eternal separation from His Love and Light for all eternity. God, being just as well as loving, would thus allow the punishment to fit the crime as well as respecting the persons right to freely choose between His Light and eternal darkness.

Give that God-engendered torments--flames, satanic pitchforks, etc.--are not by any stretch of the imagination "loving", i cannot see a God Who IS Love resorting to such meaningless--i.e. with no redemptive motive--cruelty.

That being said, i should state that i would never ever argue the point as there is plenty of Scriptures on both sides! Personally, all i need to know about hell is i don't wanna be there--whatever it consists of.

ABBA'S BRAT,
ephraim

 

[aiki]

I'd like to hear from you what Hell is. Until then, I'll be telling you the problems I had with the assumption that Hell is a fiery pit of doom.

Hell is precisely what Scripture describes it to be: A fiery place of eternal punishment for the wicked. (Matt. 13:40; 13:42; 13:50; 18:8; 18:9; 25:41; 2 Thess. 1:8, 9; Heb. 10:27; Rev. 20:10; 20:14; 21:8)

If one emphasizes God's love at the expense of His holiness and justice, one begins to warp the truth of the reality of Hell. God is a loving God and He is also a wrathful God (Ro. 1:18; 2;5; Eph. 5:6; Col. 3:6; Rev. 6:17; 14:10; 14:19; 15:1; 19:15). It is a dangerous corruption of the the revelation the Bible gives us of God to deny His wrath in favor of His love.

Onto the problems themselves...

The good old "it's not fair": Infinite torment seems awfully excessive for a finite lifetime's worth of sin. This isn't a major problem for me, you must have come across it before. Still, nice for me to hear your thoughts.

As Bible2 has already explained, the eternal nature of the punishment of Hell is a testament to the awfulness of disobeying an infinite, omnipotent, perfectly holy God.

If I convert and go to Heaven, the majority of people I love will still be going to Hell. This is a major problem for me.

If your loved ones were in a burning house and refused to leave even after being warned of the danger to them, would you join them in burning to death?
Does loving someone obligate you to join them in their mistakes?

This is on the assumption that if you don't believe, you go to Hell. Even if that's not the case, then it's quite possible that people I love will go to Hell while I go to Heaven. That makes me feel rather sad and sick.

I would be horrified to discover it didn't make you feel terrible!

I can't imagine being happy knowing that my loved ones are suffering for eternity. I'd much rather go to Hell for them, or at least with them.

You cannot choose for another the choices they will make. We each stand alone before God to answer for our choices.

If your loved one was suffering from a broken arm would you break your arm in sympathetic solidarity with them?

It was this thought that gave me an insight into why Christians feel a need to "save" people. I find it heartwrenching that even a stranger will go to Hell.

Yes, me too.

Natural disasters. When God sends a tidal wave that kills lots and lots of people they're going one of two places - Heaven or Hell. Either they were all good people and went to Heaven, or some or most or (for the sake of completeness) all went to Hell. He judged them before they even died "naturally" (e.g. old age, murder, accident). Another "it's not fair" problem, although of a different flavour.

I don't understand the distinction you're making between "natural" death and and "unnatural death." Could you explain?

A response I have heard from my friend is that it's up to God to judge, and we don't know. Fair enough. But I think we can have a go at making educated guesses without claiming to know for sure.

To what end?

An example would be if God let everyone I love into Heaven so I'm not sad, then you'd guess He would also let everyone they love into Heaven so they're not sad, and so on and so on until the whole world is in Heaven and there's no need to worry about Hell so long as one person ever has been Christian.

Why would "so I'm not sad" be a good reason to let everyone into Heaven? What about justice? What about holiness? What about God's sacrifice for sin?

Peace.

 

[mcflooble]

If your loved ones were in a burning house and refused to leave even after being warned of the danger to them, would you join them in burning to death?
Does loving someone obligate you to join them in their mistakes?

Good point.

I don't understand the distinction you're making between "natural" death and and "unnatural death." Could you explain?

As you discovered on my other thread "Why?", I'm not that great at explaining things. I explained what I meant in the post three above yours, being the distinction between God-caused and man-caused death.

To what end?

Just for the sake of speculating.

Why would "so I'm not sad" be a good reason to let everyone into Heaven? What about justice? What about holiness? What about God's sacrifice for sin?

I'd heard that no one could be sad in Heaven.

Notice all these seperate quotes? That's because of you! Thanks for teaching

 

[Bible2]

mcflooble:
How do you decide what is symbolic and what isn't?

When something in the Bible is only symbolic, the Bible usually explains the symbols afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20). We can't state that something is symbolic simply because we think that if it were literal it would contradict some other verse in the Bible. The Bible does not contradict itself. For example, Romans 9:22 doesn't contradict 2 Peter 3:9, because 2 Peter 3:9 is referring only to the elect (the "us" in "us-ward") whom God does not want to perish (Romans 9:23). And Romans 9:13 doesn't contradict 1 John 4:8, because God can both love (and so show his mercy to) the elect and hate (and so show his wrath to) the unelect (Romans 9:11-23). The whole purpose of Creation is God's pleasure (Revelation 4:11). If it is his pleasure to create some people so that through them he will have the opportunity to eternally show his wrath and make his power known (Romans 9:21-22), who is man to answer back to God (Romans 9:20), or to claim that that is not really what God wants to do (Jeremiah 23:17-29)?

... the distinction between God-caused and man-caused death.

In effect, all death that occurs in this world is man-caused because it is only because of Adam's sin that man became mortal (Romans 5:17). At the same time, all death that occurs in this world is in effect God-caused because it is only because of God's justice that man became mortal because of sin (Romans 6:23).

But there is also death in the next world which no man can cause and that only God can cause: "the second death" of eternal torment in the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8, 20:10,15, 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46), also called the Gehenna-hell (Mark 9:45-46). This is why we are not to fear man for the only-temporary first-death that he can cause us in this world, but are to fear God for his ability to not only cause us the first-death, but then to also cast us into the Gehenna-hell (Luke 12:4-5).

Satan would love to deceive us into not having this fear of God, for he knows that it is the lack of the fear of God which keeps people in wickedness (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they are on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4) when the entire Bible is taken into consideration, instead of taking just a few verses by themselves and misapplying them (e.g. Matthew 4:6-7).

 

[marlowe007]

I'm an agnostic concerning the existence of a literal fiery Hell - I just don't know whether it's real or not, but I believe that if I keep on repenting until death, this should make me safe from the possibility of going there. If it turns out that I get pitched into a Lake of Fire for my prior sins - well, while that's gonna suck for me personally, at least I'll be able to draw some comfort from the knowledge that there's going to be a happy ending for the good people. I think we, all of us, have known truly good people whose shadow we are not fit to stand in.

You would have no anguish or concern about the fate of your loved ones should you end up in Heaven, because according to the Bible, it's not possible to have such feelings, or indeed any negative emotion. I know it's difficult to understand from this current worldly, limited human perspective, but once you are inside the Pearly Gates, all painful thoughts simply disappear and you're transformed completely and rendered immune to them. And you would no longer be in a state to question the justice of God's judgment. So, why risk eternal punishment over such earthly concerns, if you can admit that you're a mere mortal with flawed reasoning? There's just too much at stake.

 

[mcflooble]

You would have no anguish or concern about the fate of your loved ones should you end up in Heaven, because according to the Bible, it's not possible to have such feelings, or indeed any negative emotion. I know it's difficult to understand from this current worldly, limited human perspective, but once you are inside the Pearly Gates, all painful thoughts simply disappear and you're transformed completely and rendered immune to them.

You're right, it's very difficult to understand how people can be heartless in Heaven (concerning those in Hell), loving only your father and those as privileged as you.

This has made me requestion why Christians try to "save" people. Why try to "save" people if ultimately you won't care? It seems that caring about them now is a "worldly, limited human perspective."

So, why risk eternal punishment over such earthly concerns, if you can admit that you're a mere mortal with flawed reasoning? There's just too much at stake.

This is like Pascal's Wager. It doesn't work because all I can do is feign belief in God. So I'd better hope God isn't omnipotent otherwise he'd see right through me.

 

[Sketcher]

This has made me requestion why Christians try to "save" people. Why try to "save" people if ultimately you won't care? It seems that caring about them now is a "worldly, limited human perspective."

Hey, if I meet someone I like and this person happens to be unsaved, I want that person to get saved so we can both be in Heaven. The more that make it, the merrier.

 

[ebia]

You're right, it's very difficult to understand how people can be heartless in Heaven (concerning those in Hell), loving only your father and those as privileged as you.

This has made me requestion why Christians try to "save" people. Why try to "save" people if ultimately you won't care? It seems that caring about them now is a "worldly, limited human perspective."

Indeed, if caring is a worldly perspective then how come God cares.

It might be better to say not that we won't care, but rather we do care but will be reconcilled to the fact that such people have chosen to exclude themselved. If at all possible, I would highly recommend reading CS Lewis' The Great Divorce.

 

[Jase]

Mcflooble, try not to dwell on the fire and brimstone stories of hell you always hear about. While many conservatives still preach that view, history shows that the evil torture version of hell is a fictional fabrication. Dante Alighieri created the modern day view of hell with his book La Divinia Commedia. Hell in the Bible refers to the grave. The fire references are merely metaphors based on the landfill outside Jerusalem where trash was destroyed by fire. While we ultimately don't know what Hell is like, the Bible is not as descriptive as many would like to believe based on a superficial reading. If anything, the Bible seems to suggest that hell is destruction, not eternal torment.