Hell.

[mcflooble]

Yep.

My major problem with God is, you guessed it, the idea of Hell.

First off, I haven't read the Bible. All I know about Christianity is what I've been told, as such I'll be working with a lot of assumptions. What I'm looking for on this thread is corrections to things I'm misunderstanding (which might generate other problems, I'm okay with this thread diverging along those lines), consolidation/solutions to these problems (other than just "convert" - I'll assume that's already suggested), or just being told yep, that's the facts, tough luck for you.

Anyway.

When I was discussing my problems with a Christian friend, she replied "What is Hell?" Until then, I'd always assumed it was, you know, a fiery pit of doom filled with torture devices (that even work on the soul) and ghosts with pitchforks.

I'd like to hear from you what Hell is. Until then, I'll be telling you the problems I had with the assumption that Hell is a fiery pit of doom.

Onto the problems themselves...

The good old "it's not fair": Infinite torment seems awfully excessive for a finite lifetime's worth of sin. This isn't a major problem for me, you must have come across it before. Still, nice for me to hear your thoughts.

If I convert and go to Heaven, the majority of people I love will still be going to Hell. This is a major problem for me. This is on the assumption that if you don't believe, you go to Hell. Even if that's not the case, then it's quite possible that people I love will go to Hell while I go to Heaven. That makes me feel rather sad and sick. I can't imagine being happy knowing that my loved ones are suffering for eternity. I'd much rather go to Hell for them, or at least with them. It was this thought that gave me an insight into why Christians feel a need to "save" people. I find it heartwrenching that even a stranger will go to Hell.

Natural disasters. When God sends a tidal wave that kills lots and lots of people they're going one of two places - Heaven or Hell. Either they were all good people and went to Heaven, or some or most or (for the sake of completeness) all went to Hell. He judged them before they even died "naturally" (e.g. old age, murder, accident). Another "it's not fair" problem, although of a different flavour.

A response I have heard from my friend is that it's up to God to judge, and we don't know. Fair enough. But I think we can have a go at making educated guesses without claiming to know for sure. An example would be if God let everyone I love into Heaven so I'm not sad, then you'd guess He would also let everyone they love into Heaven so they're not sad, and so on and so on until the whole world is in Heaven and there's no need to worry about Hell so long as one person ever has been Christian.

I'll post more problems if and when I remember/come up with them, if they're Hell related.

 

[b.hopeful]

Well...as to the hell questions....I can not answer them in this section because it's considered unorthodox. Let's just say that not all Christians believe in a literal hell. Some people believe that hell is being distanced from God...since God is pure love. If I am wrong on my beliefs and there is a literal hell for non-believers....I'd prefer hell with non believers than heaven with a wrathful, ego-maniacal god. That god,imo, wouldn't be worth worshiping.

Natural disasters....that's about the will of God. I don't believe God sends tidal waves or tsunamis or floods to kill off creation. I believe that there is a natural order to the world and tsunamis and tidal waves happen. I don't believe in a God that interferes with the laws of nature present in God's creation. That doesn't mean that God forsakes us at this time or that God can't use these events to still see God's will be done. God wants creation unified in love. When that happens...it will be like heaven. (imagine!)

It sounds like you are an atheist because your heart and mind can not bear the thought of the typical US christian message of fire and brimstone and judgement and punishment and good people like Ghandi burning in hell for being born in India(essentially). I totally get that.

 

[shinbits]

Hell was watching Twillight.

 

[seashale76]

I post this a lot :

I'm swiping this from here http://www.christianforums.com/t2642...ox-church.html as it says it better than I could:

The Orthodox teaching is that Heaven and Hell are the same "place" , standing in front of God. The Judgment is individual perception, determined by one's relationship to God. This perception will determine whether or not one experiences it as paradise (Heaven) or agony (Hell) eternally .

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

 

[mcflooble]

I post this a lot :

I'm swiping this from here http://www.christianforums.com/t2642...ox-church.html as it says it better than I could:
Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

That's pretty cool. It certainly changes the perspective of the problems.

Still, if I converted and "went to Heaven", but not my loved ones, it says that they will still "undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures." The difference I see now though is that I'd be able to comfort them as best I can? Can anyone ever be redeemed from Hell by asking for forgiveness from their sins just like Christians do on Earth now? That seems to make it better to me because if every single one of us has "sinned against love" anyway what's the difference between asking for forgiveness in this life or the next?

Thanks for answering the "What is Hell?" question! I'd heard something similar before but didn't want to mention it because I was unsure on the details, and I was sure someone would bring it up

 

[mcflooble]

Natural disasters....that's about the will of God. I don't believe God sends tidal waves or tsunamis or floods to kill off creation. I believe that there is a natural order to the world and tsunamis and tidal waves happen. I don't believe in a God that interferes with the laws of nature present in God's creation.

If I believed in God, I reckon I'd believe along the same lines as you. Although when God created, surely he knew what would happen and how many people would be affected, effectively "sending" the tidal waves and things at the people before they were born. If God doesn't interfere with His laws then I see why he wouldn't stop a tsunami, but considering he created the Earth so that that would happen anyway I wonder why he wouldn't just... not have created it so there'd be all these horrid disasters.

This part isn't specific to your post, but ties in from what I've just said. Why do we exist on Earth at all if God knows whether we'll end up believing or not? I can think of a few answers to my own question, but I don't know which one's the best:
a) God doesn't know who will end up believing because of free will.
b) We need to go through the Earth phase so we can appreciate Him more in Heaven (although couldn't He have made us have all that appreciation beforehand?)
c) Something I haven't thought of!

Also, I did read the rest of your post too

 

[mcflooble]

Hell was watching Twillight.

lol

 

[ebia]

First off, the picture of "Hell" you describe owes more to medieval fantasy, the likes of Dante's Inferno and some Italian painters, than to anything much in scripture.

When we do go to scripture we need to bear a number of things in mind. Firstly that the word 'hell' never appears - it's a translation word put in in place of a number of original greek words including Gehenna (Jerusalem's ever-smoldering rubbish pit) and Hades (the Greek abode of the dead). Secondly that anything said about hell would necessarly be worded in metaphor.

Thirdly, and most importantly, one needs to understand what the Christian hope is, before discussing the alternative. Hell is not the opposite of heaven.

The historic Christian hope is not to be whisked off to a disembodied heaven for eternity. Heaven is God's throne room, so to speak, not our destination.

Rather the Christian hope is that God will finish his restoration of Creation and rejoin heaven and earth, resurrecting all his people to new life within that.

In that framework it becomes clear that for the New Creation to be free of evil and suffering the people that are part of it need to be made free of evil. Jesus is the means of that, and therefore those that reject that are rejecting being part of that New Creation.

So what will the alternative look like? Well, scripture doesn't actually spend much time on that - the focus of scripture is on God's intention for all who will accept it. What it does say is in metaphor - "like chaff thrown on the winnowing fire" (whosh, and it's gone), "like prunings on the bonfire", "like rubbish thrown on Jerusalem's ever smoldering rubbish heap" (note that the heap is ever burning, but the rubbish is gone in a finite time).

One interesting speculation is that we tend to become like that which we worship, so that those who refuse to put God in his place will become more and more like whatever they have in his place until they are no longer "in the image of God" at all - that is, they have ceased to be human.

I would thoroughly recommend also reading C.S. Lewis' narrative exploration of the question - The Great Divorce.

 

[mcflooble]

First off, the picture of "Hell" you describe owes more to medieval fantasy, the likes of Dante's Inferno and some Italian painters, than to anything much in scripture.

When we do go to scripture we need to bear a number of things in mind. Firstly that the word 'hell' never appears - it's a translation word put in in place of a number of original greek words including Gehenna (Jerusalem's ever-smoldering rubbish pit) and Hades (the Greek abode of the dead). Secondly that anything said about hell would necessarly be worded in metaphor.

Thirdly, and most importantly, one needs to understand what the Christian hope is, before discussing the alternative. Hell is not the opposite of heaven.

The historic Christian hope is not to be whisked off to a disembodied heaven for eternity. Heaven is God's throne room, so to speak, not our destination.

Rather the Christian hope is that God will finish his restoration of Creation and rejoin heaven and earth, resurrecting all his people to new life within that.

In that framework it becomes clear that for the New Creation to be free of evil and suffering the people that are part of it need to be made free of evil. Jesus is the means of that, and therefore those that reject that are rejecting being part of that New Creation.

So what will the alternative look like? Well, scripture doesn't actually spend much time on that - the focus of scripture is on God's intention for all who will accept it. What it does say is in metaphor - "like chaff thrown on the winnowing fire" (whosh, and it's gone), "like prunings on the bonfire", "like rubbish thrown on Jerusalem's ever smoldering rubbish heap" (note that the heap is ever burning, but the rubbish is gone in a finite time).

One interesting speculation is that we tend to become like that which we worship, so that those who refuse to put God in his place will become more and more like whatever they have in his place until they are no longer "in the image of God" at all - that is, they have ceased to be human.

I would thoroughly recommend also reading C.S. Lewis' narrative exploration of the question - The Great Divorce.

This post was very informative.

seashale76 got me on the track of Hell not being the Fiery Pit Of Doom TM. I didn't know that Hell was barely mentioned in scripture, or that the actual word never showed up.

Knowledge of the Christian hope has also cleared up a lot about my idea of Hell.

It doesn't seem like such a bad place anymore. It sounds more of a missing out on something than being a part of eternal torture.

 

[98cwitr]

Matthew 25:46, if you don't believe in a literal Hell, just read the book of Matthew. It's real and it exists...do not be fooled into believing otherwise.

 

[mcflooble]

Matthew 25:46, if you don't believe in a literal Hell, just read the book of Matthew. It's real and it exists...do not be fooled into believing otherwise.

Hmm. As in Fiery Pit Of Doom TM literal Hell?

 

[ebia]

This post was very informative.

seashale76 got me on the track of Hell not being the Fiery Pit Of Doom TM. I didn't know that Hell was barely mentioned in scripture, or that the actual word never showed up.

Knowledge of the Christian hope has also cleared up a lot about my idea of Hell.

It doesn't seem like such a bad place anymore. It sounds more of a missing out on something than being a part of eternal torture.

It would help if English translations avoided the word and used Hades, Gehenna, etc where the Greek text uses each.

The closest the New Testament gets to the medieval picture is in Revelations - but one needs to remember that Revelations is almost entirely apocalyptic (and therefore non-literal) language and the Parable of Dives and Lazarus. In reading the latter one needs to remember that the purpose is not to read a parable as teaching about the setting - the parable of the sower is not a lesson in agriculture and likewise the parable of Lazareth is not a lesson in spirtual geography.

The snag comes when people read the texts, particularly translations of the texts, without sensitivity to the metaphors and cultural idoms involved.

 

[seashale76]

Hmm. As in Fiery Pit Of Doom TM literal Hell?

It is literal only if one considers that God is the Fire, which He is. Think of the three youths in the fiery furnace who didn't die, while those who actually put them in the fire perished by that same fire.

As to your earlier question of anyone being redeemed from this, only God knows. We pray for the dead as per 2 Maccabees 12:40-46. We trust that God is merciful, but also recognize that such things also have much to do with whether or not one wants the mercy.

However, it is certainly better not to wait until this life is over. As St. Isaac of Syria said, "This life is given to us for repentance. Do not waste it in vain pursuits."

 

[Christos Anesti]

Can anyone ever be redeemed from Hell by asking for forgiveness from their sins

There are instances in our hagiography that describe the prayers of the saints bringing comfort and joy to those who experienced the afterlife as hell. Christ Himself descended into hell and liberated the captives (those "in prison") after the crucifixion too:

On the other hand, the New Testament speaks of the preaching of Christ in hell as addressed to the unrepentant sinners: ‘For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirit in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited’[2]. However, many Church Fathers and liturgical texts of the Orthodox Church repeatedly underline that having descended to hell, Christ opened the way to salvation for all people, not only the Old Testament righteous. The descent of Christ into Hades is perceived as an event of cosmic significance involving all people without exception. They also speak about the victory of Christ over death, the full devastation of hell and that after the descent of Christ into Hades there was nobody left there except for the devil and demons.

Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: Christ the Conqueror of Hell

 

[Christos Anesti]

You might be interested in reading about the teachings of St Isaac the Syrian on the love and mercy of God.

ST. ISAAC THE SYRIAN:
A THEOLOGIAN OF LOVE AND MERCY
Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev​

 

[Christos Anesti]

I like the quote of St Isaac from this part of that article:

‘I am of the opinion that He is going to manifest some wonderful outcome’, Isaac claims, ‘a matter of immense and ineffable compassion on the part of the glorious Creator,with respect to the ordering of this difficult matter of Gehenna’s torment: out of it the wealth of His love and power and wisdom will become known all the more - and so will the insistent might of the waves of His goodness. It is not the way of the compassionate Maker to create rational beings in order to deliver them over mercilessly to unending affliction in punishment for things of which He knew even before they were fashioned, aware how they would turn out when He created them - and whom nonetheless He created. All the more since the foreplanning of evil and the taking of vengeance are characteristic of the passions of created beings, and do not belong to the Creator. For all this characterizes people who do not know or who are unaware of what they are doing.., for as a result of some matter that has occurred unexpectedly to them they are incited by the vehemence of anger to take vengeance. Such action does not belong to the Creator who, even before the cycle of the depiction of creation has been portrayed, knew of allthat was before and all that was after in connection with the actions and intentions of rational beings’
​

 

[ephraimanesti]

Yep.

My major problem with God is, you guessed it, the idea of Hell.

First off, I haven't read the Bible. All I know about Christianity is what I've been told, as such I'll be working with a lot of assumptions.

I'll post more problems if and when I remember/come up with them, if they're Hell related.

MY FRIEND,

It is a dumb question, i know, but instead of wasting time playing mind games on line, why don't you read the Bible for yourself and draw your own conclusions--or at least equip yourself to ask informed questions.

Getting your information on Biblical matters 2nd hand, from either believers or non-believers, is a seriously faulty way to draw any reasonable conclusions regarding God and related issues--especially those pertaining to heaven and/or hell.

In other words, eliminate the middle-man and GET YOUR INFO STRAIGHT FROM YOUR LORD/GOD/CREATOR'S MOUTH!

ABBA'S BRAT,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

It doesn't seem like such a bad place anymore. It sounds more of a missing out on something than being a part of eternal torture.

MY DEAR FRIEND,

YOU ARE SERIOUSLY--AND PERHAPS PURPOSEFULLY--MISSING THE POINT!

FINALLY REALIZING TOO LATE THAT YOU HAVE WILLFULLY MISSED OUT ON GOD'S GRACE-FILLED LOVE FOR YOU IS ETERNAL TORTURE!

ABBA'S BRAT,
ephraim

 

[mcflooble]

I've read every post since I last posted, thanks for the input. I'm learning every time I come back to read the thread. So far I've advanced from the Fiery Pit Of Doom to the understanding of it being seperated from God that is the torment, and that there is a chance for redemption after death but that is not the best way to go.

I'm guessing that the eternal torture would include immense jealousy and envy of the people not suffering as you do, and a feeling that it isn't your fault and it isn't fair. Just imagining myself in that situation, that's probably how I'd feel. After a while though, I imagine you'd get used to it and come to acceptance. Except for the "bad effect of love" (not very eloquently put, I know... I'm referring to God's love having different effects on the people "in Heaven" and "in Hell"), I can kind of imagine how that wouldn't get old.

My guess is that at least part of redemption after death could only be possible if you come to realise that it is fair, it is your fault, and you own up to it and feel fully what you're owning up to.

Hmm just thought of some more things, this time about the Devil (capital D?). Do we meet him if we "go to Hell"?

What would be "wrong" with deciding that Satan's the way to go? I mean, if right and wrong are objective, then I can see how it could be wrong wrong. I mean why not follow Satan, other than the fact it's wrong?

I guess the above comes from my views on morality, where I wonder what's wrong with wrong? Why try to do right? I can't answer these questions, nevertheless I haven't disregarded my morals because of it (just to put everyone's minds at ease!). These might not necessarily be questions about Christianity but they seem relevant.

Christos Anesti: I've saved the article to my laptop. I don't plan to read it right away, but will do probably bit by bit. Thanks for the link.

ephraimanesti: I knew someone would post that soon enough... I don't have the patience to acquire and read the Bible (thought I'd be honest), this is much more convenient... If anyone doesn't have the patience to answer me because of that then fair enough, they're not obliged to post. I won't hold it against them. I realise what you're saying though, and I'm willing to accept it. I won't hold any of these posts as the authoritive word, but I reckon I'll end up in a better place after asking anyway.

 

[andreha]

I heard a testimony of an atheist that died and went to hell. When he got there, demons started torturing him. Then He heard the voice of God, telling Him to call on the name of the Lord Jesus. He did, and came back to life and became a pastor. Now that's grace.