Hell

[Lpe04]

Why are we saved? Saved from what? Saved from nothing, I guess on your terms. I guess we don't need a Saviour...there is no saving us from separation from Him (?)

Saved from death. We are all born dead in sins because of Adam. Jesus Christ conquered over death for us. Man has always understood death and has always been searching for Eternal Life which Christ gives to us.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I think people miss the point that Eternal Life is a free gift and not a choice to be made to avoid eternal torment. It is not fair at all for someone (especially a good person such as Ghandi) to suffer not only a little, but for all eternity because of a choice that someone else made (Adam).

Also the fact the God is infinitly more merciful and loving than we are gives us establishment that any of act of mercy we have will be infinitly magnified by God. Just as we would never torture anyone for all eternity, we can be more than assured that neither would God, who is infinitly more merciful, loving, and compassionate than we, even for His enemies.

God Bless

 

[watchman7]

This was touched upon in another thread, but I wanted to ask christians what they thought. Do you believe that everyone that doesn't believe in God goes to hell when they die?

I know some amazing, wonderful, good people (including my husband) that don't believe in God, and I can't believe that that they will go to hell just for not believing in God. It seems an incredibly cruel punishment.

Any thoughts?

Come on Christians. I think we blew this one. This person, who seems to be a new Christian, simply asks the question if everyone who do not believe in God goes to hell when they die.

This seems simple enough. I think this person is sincere and I think she deserves an accurate answer. Even more so, the answer should be form a unified Church perspective, not debate and haggling over words and egos.

We have used about 140 replies and many different opinions. Shouldn't this be answered in a simple manner. Dozens have turned this into a debate confusing this person even further.

She has decided to continue in her belief that all good people who do not believe in God and Christians when will be together in the same place when they die.

I think we lost her on this thread Brothers and Sisters.

She needed encouragement and doctrinal accuracy instead of debate and division from fellow Christians.

Shouldn't the answer go something like this: No Vix, Christians and people who are not Christians do not go to the same place when they die. Christians go to be with God and non-Christians do not go to be with God. Christians and non-Christians will be separated forever after death.

Pray for your family Vix and we will also pray for you and your family. It is not too late.

I apologize that this many Christians gave so many different answers and contributed to your confusion on this matter.

Study your Bible, find a good teacher, pray, there is such a thing as accurate Biblical interpretation, continue seek the truth, the Holy Spirit will guide you.
God loves you and your family.

 

[Vigil]

Come on Christians. I think we blew this one. This person, who seems to be a new Christian, simply asks the question if everyone who do not believe in God goes to hell when they die.

This seems simple enough. I think this person is sincere and I think she deserves an accurate answer. Even more so, the answer should be form a unified Church perspective, not debate and haggling over words and egos.

We have used about 140 replies and many different opinions. Shouldn't this be answered in a simple manner. Dozens have turned this into a debate confusing this person even further.

She has decided to continue in her belief that all good people who do not believe in God and Christians when will be together in the same place when they die.

I think we lost her on this thread Brothers and Sisters.

She needed encouragement and doctrinal accuracy instead of debate and division from fellow Christians.

Shouldn't the answer go something like this: No Vix, Christians and people who are not Christians do not go to the same place when they die. Christians go to be with God and non-Christians do not go to be with God. Christians and non-Christians will be separated forever after death.

Pray for your family Vix and we will also pray for you and your family. It is not too late.

I apologize that this many Christians gave so many different answers and contributed to your confusion on this matter.

Study your Bible, find a good teacher, pray, there is such a thing as accurate Biblical interpretation, continue seek the truth, the Holy Spirit will guide you.
God loves you and your family.

Great Responce.
When I posted this topic looked like it was doing ok, what happend?
Did we start debating the nature of Hell or something?

And I am sooo not reading 114 replies.

God Bless
Vigil.

 

[ertsky]

here is an amazing thing

my fellow christians telling me that because i say God will not torture non christians forever i am in error.

then they say well then we don't need a savior if thats the case as if we think we can overcome temptation without Him !

i say He has a plan for good for ALL men they say no only a few

i say He works ALL things after the councel of His own will they say no only some things

and yet i am supposed to be the one dishonouring God

i get these ideas from the bible which we all agree is the inspired word of God and so i defend them

then i am accused of ego

wonderful let us all examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith

..........yes i seem to be well in the faith aok thankyou Lord

ok houston we have a problem

 

[watchman7]

here is an amazing thing

my fellow christians telling me that because i say God will not torture non christians forever i am in error.

then they say well then we don't need a savior if thats the case as if we think we can overcome temptation without Him !

i say He has a plan for good for ALL men they say no only a few

i say He works ALL things after the councel of His own will they say no only some things

and yet i am supposed to be the one dishonouring God

i get these ideas from the bible which we all agree is the inspired word of God and so i defend them

then i am accused of ego

wonderful let us all examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith

..........yes i seem to be well in the faith aok thankyou Lord

ok houston we have a problem

No accusation intended Brother Ertsky.
It appears that you agree with Vix in the original post in this thread.
There are many Christians, including me, who do not agree with your perspective.
It is obvious that all people do not become Christians therefore the destiny of Christians and non-Christians are different.
It seems that Vix has exited this thread with a confused conclusion because of differing views suggested.
Perhaps you should begin another thread if you are looking for answers.
There are many Brethren on this forum willing to help you.
I agree that God doesn't torture anyone Ertsky. I haven't read here that anyone has stated that view.
God bless you.
I hope you and I and others in this forum agree on some tenets of the Christian faith and that we would encourage each other in the faith sometimes. ( Maybe that would be a good thread.)

 

[Reformationist]

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

the word specially there is


malista
Thayer Definition:
1) especially, chiefly, most of all, above all
Part of Speech: adverbial superlative

(very); (adverb) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly: - chiefly, most of all, (e-) specially.

ok now lets see who wants to argue with this verse of scripture

Not that I desire to argue this verse, but as you did not state how you understand the verse or the definition I am in a position where I must ask for clarification. Do you believe that "who is the Saviour of all men" and "especially, chiefly, most of all, above all" means that Christ is the Savior of all men without exception? If so, in what manner is He the Savior?

I would understand that verse one of two ways, simply because understanding it in the universal sense, i.e., Christ is the Savior of all men, requires that we espouse universal salvation, and that is clearly unbiblical. So, we can either limit the pas anthropos (all men) or we limit the manner in which He serves as Savior to all people without exception, for surely He does not fill the role of eternal Savior to all people without exception.

Any thoughts?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

It is not fair at all for someone (especially a good person such as Ghandi) to suffer not only a little, but for all eternity because of a choice that someone else made (Adam).

So your position is that if God holds Ghandi accountable for sinning and administers justice upon him for his acts of treason then God is unfair? Do you understand that saying that God is unfair for such an act of imputation is synonymous with saying that He is unholy?

Just as we would never torture anyone for all eternity, we can be more than assured that neither would God, who is infinitly more merciful, loving, and compassionate than we, even for His enemies.

Your problem understanding this is that you, like many others on this thread, clearly look at this from a man centered perspective. The grace of God, by which we are justified on the day of our judgment, is unmerited. If God denies a sinner the grace of His forgiveness that the sinner didn't deserve in the first place, God is not being cruel. He is being just. Man deserves the wrath of God. If God dispenses His wrath upon the iniquity of a sinner it is not torture. It is justice.

God bless

 

[Jerrysch]

OK.

There is no escape from the Lake of Fire. Agree.


It appears you are mixing the Hades/Sheol with the Burning Lake.
Hades/Sheol is the world of the departed dead, the immediate afterlife of any person that was not saved by God through Jesus Christ.
The Judgement Day is upcoming. It is in the future. And all that ever lived and died will be judged. Then the Burning Lake part will take place.

Are you talking about the "second chance" from the Lake of Fire or the Hades?



Thanks,
Ed

Actually, I have not addressed Hades nor Sheol, there is much confusion regarding these, and yet understanding does not change the fact that those who die without redemption from their sins go to a place away from the presence of Christ, their place of eternal abode will be in the lake of fire. There is no second chance from Hades or the lake of fire.

 

[Edial]

Actually, I have not addressed Hades nor Sheol, there is much confusion regarding these, and yet understanding does not change the fact that those who die without redemption from their sins go to a place away from the presence of Christ, their place of eternal abode will be in the lake of fire. There is no second chance from Hades or the lake of fire.

Jerry, if you see that there is much confusion concerning the Hades/Sheol how then do you know for certain that people cannot be saved from it from within it?

One does not have verses that state that one cannot be saved from Sheol. And I know of a verse that states that a man was indeed saved from Sheol.

I am not talking about purgatory. There is no purgatory.

The Bible presents only one condition for not being saved from the Hades/Sheol (no second chance) and that is rejecting Christ "to his face" in this life. These that reject him here will not have life and will wind up in the Burning Lake.

There are people that never heard of Christ (some Chinese farmer, for example). And there are babies that are aborted. And, if one is holding to the "age of accountability" theology - it is simply not ethical to wind up in hell for a "parking ticket".

Jerry. To say that there is no salvation from the Hades/Sheol for the ones that never heard of Christ is not Biblical. (But I do realize that this is a common thought among the many).

I understand that we deserve hell by nature. No problem.
But I have not noticed God working that way, not in the Bible not in life.

When he provides salvation to all he will take nothing less than a clear "no" for answer. And it is very Biblical .

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

ertsky, I presented a number of questions in my post that need to be answered before one claims to understand the Burning Lake. And that is the Sheol/Hades.

Do you believe that the devil and the false prophet and the Beast will be spend eternity in there?

ertsky, it is God's will that all be saved however, they will refuse him and will not be saved.
And why you quote the Bible when you only pick and choose?

Ed

 

[SingleServant]

Vix, that we can't live up to God's standard, we cannot be good enough, in our eyes we can see what we see, but God looks upon the heart. Only He knows what goes on in the heart of a person. But even that aside He set a standard that we all could reach and that is to accept Jesus sacrifice for our sins. It is a great sacrifice, not a small thing and He requires that we receive this by faith. He makes sure that we have heard the gospel, that's why the end cannot come until this gospel is preached to the entire world. The thing is when you hear it what is your response? It's ok not to entirely understand, but don't stop asking God, ask Him any question you like He will bring the truth to you and you will know it when you hear it. Know this God loves you and your husband and He has made a way for you to have eternal life and not spend eternity in Hell, He doesn't want that for you either, think of it this way, He doesn't want you to go there that's why He sent His Son to die for you, Jesus is the way out!!

Also think of this suppose there were a fire in a building that we were all in and a fireman comes in to show us the way out so that we could be saved from the fire but some don't believe him and choose to find their own way out . . . you would say that's nuts, of couse they would follow the fireman but such is the case with Jesus, He is the door to eternal life but many choose not to believe Him. It's not that God sends them to hell but their choice, their choosing not to believe in the Son of God that sends them to hell.

SS

 

[Edial]

This was a familiar spirit (evil spirit) impersonating Samuel.

Where do you get all this information?

The author of the Bible plainly states that it was Samuel that showed up, not the evil spirit imitating the Samuel. And the author is the Holy Spirit.

Are you going to interpret this away also?

This is why God forbids siances and "contacting the dead" because people who do are messing with evil spirits. This is known as the occult. Saul had turned his back on God and went to see a witch. This was all very evil stuff.

The fact that God forbids contacting the dead is because they can be contacted.
Many evil spirits would pretend to be the departed from the Sheol in order to deceive and capture.
However, in the case of Samuel - it was Samuel himself that showed up and not the evil spirit imitating him.

In Corinthians Paul is addressing the Church of God, not unbelievers (duh).

And what is this in reference to? Would you please post the post you are responding to?

Even animals will receive spiritual bodies? Are you kidding me?

Do you read the Bible or just giving people the impression that you do?
I even gave you the text. Did you read it? Did you study it?
What is this?

The punishment of death is eternal because the perished unbeliever will have no way to regain life.

Death is not a cessation from existence.

Explain the verses that describe activity in the Hades/Sheol, such as Isa.14 and Luke 16 (the rich man and Lazarus).

If you are going to hold to your theology that unbelievers are tormented for ever, in all fairness to God's Word, you are first going to have to explain to yourself these verses (and there are hundreds of verses, but we'll start with these few). Since God's Word is infallible, you are going to have to make these verses work with your theology and thus you are going to have to explain them before you can continue to support what you do (I'm tired of people supporting their theology with a verse or two and throwing out and contradicting the rest of God's Word instead of trying to explain the verses in question).

My theology? Didn't I just showed you verses that plainly state activities in the Hades/Sheol? (or was it to ertsky, I do not recall).

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna, representative of the Lake of Fire]" Matthew 10:28).

Destroy does not mean annihilate.

"'For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,' says the LORD of hosts, 'that will leave them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings; and you shall go out and grow fat like stall-fed calves. You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,' says the LORD of Hosts" (Malachi 4:1-3).

Apostle Peter described this sd s physical occurrence in this world -
2PE 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

2PE 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish (be reduced to ashes, cease to exist, etc.), but have everlasting life. John 3:16)

It is not cease to exist as you add.
Christ said that they will be tormented in the gehenna for the eternity.

If the devil and the false prophet and the Beast will be tormented for the eternity, so will be his other allies.

You have an incorrect understanding of the Hades/Sheol. How can you expect to understand the Gehenna?

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation (judgement); but is passed from death (not torment) unto life.

Death is not necessarily a torment.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelations 21:18.

How do you derive that the 2nd death is a cessation from the existence and the first one is not?
Do you know why it is called the 2nd death? Because all will be resurrected and the Hades will give up its dead that are conscious.

So how do you know that they will cease to exist at the 2nd death, since they did not at the 1st?

""The wages of sin is death, the gift from God is Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 6:23 (Unbelievers do not receive Eternal Life, thus they do not live for ever in "hell".)

God Bless

That's it? These are your verses?

And you compete against the very words of the Christ?

Do you realize that believeing in Jesus Christ is believing in what he says.
If you reject what he says, you reject him. It is as simple as that.

I believe you claimed to have a personal revelation from where the tortures of the Gehenna were revealed. This is dangerous to go by that.
(If it is not you I stand corrected).

Please deal with Mt.18:23-35 and explain how is it that God would allow a torture. (The text is of a different context, yet the same principle).

MT 18:23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

MT 18:26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. `Be patient with me,' he begged, `and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

MT 18:28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. `Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.

MT 18:29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, `Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'

MT 18:30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

MT 18:32 "Then the master called the servant in. `You wicked servant,' he said, `I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have hadmercyon your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

MT 18:35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."



Do you understand yet that you have an incorrect view concerning God not allowing long lasting hell? At least by faith, do you understand it?

You must learn Sheol/Hades first, then you will be able to understand the Gehenna (the Burning Lake) and its environment.

Yet you already started off by stating that there is no action in Sheol, despite of the Isa.14 text.


So far you do not agree with Jesus Christ and agree with yourself.

Very frustrating.

Ed

 

[Vix]

Thanks Single servant, that's a really interesting point, and a great analogy.

 

[Edial]

Come on Christians. I think we blew this one. This person, who seems to be a new Christian, simply asks the question if everyone who do not believe in God goes to hell when they die.

This seems simple enough. I think this person is sincere and I think she deserves an accurate answer. Even more so, the answer should be form a unified Church perspective, not debate and haggling over words and egos.

We have used about 140 replies and many different opinions. Shouldn't this be answered in a simple manner. Dozens have turned this into a debate confusing this person even further.

She has decided to continue in her belief that all good people who do not believe in God and Christians when will be together in the same place when they die.

I think we lost her on this thread Brothers and Sisters.

She needed encouragement and doctrinal accuracy instead of debate and division from fellow Christians.

Shouldn't the answer go something like this: No Vix, Christians and people who are not Christians do not go to the same place when they die. Christians go to be with God and non-Christians do not go to be with God. Christians and non-Christians will be separated forever after death.

Pray for your family Vix and we will also pray for you and your family. It is not too late.

I apologize that this many Christians gave so many different answers and contributed to your confusion on this matter.

Study your Bible, find a good teacher, pray, there is such a thing as accurate Biblical interpretation, continue seek the truth, the Holy Spirit will guide you.
God loves you and your family.

(Vix I would need you input on this. )
But Watchman7, with all due respect this is not what she asked.

This was touched upon in another thread, but I wanted to ask christians what they thought. Do you believe that everyone that doesn't believe in God goes to hell when they die?

I know some amazing, wonderful, good people (including my husband) that don't believe in God, and I can't believe that that they will go to hell just for not believing in God. It seems an incredibly cruel punishment.

Any thoughts?

She wanted to know whether people that do not know God go to hell.
She also cannot comprehend how the decent people can go to hell.
I also presume that she understands that hell (Gehenna) is a place of a mind-numbing pain. She has good questions.
And these need to be answered.

Vix, comments?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Eusebios]

Might I suggest that those of you who are so inclined check out this article that makes some sense out of all this?
Vix,
I can certainly sympathize with your quandry. The article that I have referenced is long and may certainly considered by some to be a bit polemic at times, but it is the piece that seems to me to represent the most sane and balanced treatment that I have seen given to this subject.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.

 

[Asaph]

Whatever happens, the perfection of the "justness" of it will be such that not one person will refute that it is just. Not one. Neither those who stay forever in the presence of almighty God, nor those who will forever be void of the presence of God.

I am fairly confident of this though. Nobody who is in heaven with God will ever wonder about those who are not there. That would cause great sorrow, and there will be no tears in heaven, no sadness ever.

So if you have the opportunity to Love those who are not yet saved, do that today, this very moment. It is the Goodness of God that leads us to repentance. His love flowing through us will lead others to repentance.

Then leave it in God's hands where it belongs. He saves us each individually, personally.

Asaph

 

[Vix]

Watchman7,

Thanks for your very straight answer, I appreciate it. You're right I'm still very confused by the whole thing. I thought when I posted this that people would have pretty much the same ideas on hell. As I see it now none of us know exactly what will happen and I we don't know how much time we have at the end of our life to accept God and ask Him for forgiveness.

Edial,

You're right, I do understand hell as a place of mind numming pain, and I cannot understand why good people should be subjected to that. The way I feel now is that I cannot comprehend any justice in it so I will not accept it.

I do appreciate all your comments, I've found it really interesting reading through them all. I have to say though, I find it pretty interesting that everyone can argue so much, it seems a shame to me that you all want to argue over the Bible rather than celebrate each others differences in opinion - surely that isn't what God wants!?

 

[Ginny]

The point is, heaven and hell is being compared to nothing more than a day spa with bad customer service....

I firmly believe if one starts thnking in their mind that hell itself is in no way derogatory, then that will in no way whatsoever motivate someone to truly bring another to Christ- b/c "hey, there really is no loss due to no suffering, no consequences, and no repercussions for one's decision" (just the absence of Jesus).

 

[Edial]

Edial,

You're right, I do understand hell as a place of mind numming pain, and I cannot understand why good people should be subjected to that.

Vix. It is still not clear what is it exactly that you want to achieve by your post.
You agree that I understood your presumptions correctly, yet you are not asking follow up questions.
It appears you have convinced yourself of the "unfairness of the situation" and you are not willing to accept anything less than that.

Elsewhere in the thread (I think it is this thread ) I was mentioning that it indeed is an unfair situation to receive a "death sentence" for a "parking ticket".

I am giving you opportunities to ask follow up questions. Unless, you do not want answers, that is.

I hope you want answers and not a "confirmation" of something that you convinced yourself of. (I am sorry for appearing too forward).

Possible question - is the pain "mind numbing" or not?

Some more possible questions - what is afterlife? Is it the same as the "Burning Lake"? And since only the worst of the worst will "wind up" in the burning lake, and my husband was not worst of the worst - what are the options? ets, etc, etc.

The way I feel now is that I cannot comprehend any justice in it so I will not accept it.

NO ONE in his right mind accepts a possibility that God will send a good man into a Burning Lake. !
(They might convince themselves that is how it is. They do not understand it).

So what is accomplished here?
All you are doing is "setting yourself up" to reject Christ.
Don't you see that?

Here is a statement you made -

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, it's not my husband that expects to get to heaven, how can he if he doesn't think it exists? It's my fear that if I'm to accept what your all saying and I believe in Christ and repent my sins and my husband, and the rest of my family and friends don't see things that way then they will go to hell, and I will be without them. It's an incredibly hard thing to accept.

This is a legitimate statement. It is a "great" statement, as a matter of fact. This can be discussed and some very real answers derived where you will understand a bigger picture.

Example - if the afterlife is not the same as the Burning Lake, can one be saved from it? If not, why not? Can you prove it?
Suppose he would not want to be saved from it, why not? How about the babies that never knew Christ? How about that Chinese farmer?
Whay wouldn't he come to where I am at? Why not? Can he?

I do appreciate all your comments, I've found it really interesting reading through them all.
I have to say though, I find it pretty interesting that everyone can argue so much, it seems a shame to me that you all want to argue over the Bible rather than celebrate each others differences in opinion - surely that isn't what God wants!?

Do you know why we "argue" about the Bible? Because no one is indifferent towards it. No one. Jesus Christ was the only person against whom there is no indifference.
There is the truth in the Bible and it brings out the "best" or the "worst" in the person.

You remember the disciples before the resurrection of the Lord? What a sorry bunch. Just like us. They argued, debated over the smallest things. After the resurrection, things changed. But that's another topic.

Also, lots of the people that call themselves Christians are not in the true sense of the word. Remember the 72 "dicsiples" of Jesus Christ that left him and only the 12 left? And then we had the Judas Iscariot?

Look at Jesus and not at us.

Also, if you want to ask questions on this forum - expect all kind of answers, because as I said, not all that call themselves believers, are.

You want to understand Biblical responses you can PM whomever you feel "led" to. But ask Jesus Christ first who to ask. Ask him sincerely and aloud.

And if I am not even in the same zip code with my assumtions . ... never mind.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

The point is, heaven and hell is being compared to nothing more than a day spa with bad customer service....

I firmly believe if one starts thnking in their mind that hell itself is in no way derogatory, then that will in no way whatsoever motivate someone to truly bring another to Christ- b/c "hey, there really is no loss due to no suffering, no consequences, and no repercussions for one's decision" (just the absence of Jesus).

HA!
Ed