Hell is real

angelmom01 · Mar 8, 2007

MrsJoy said:
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

this verse does not say the CITY would literally be burned with eternal fire, but that the inhabitants of the city serve as an example of those who will suffer eternal punishment.

It’s talking about destroying the ungodly. It mentions Noah and the flood (BY WATER) and it mentions Sodom and Gomorrah (BY FIRE). Think it's just a coincidence that John’s baptism was one of WATER, while Christ’s is one of the Holy Spirit and FIRE?

angelmom01 · Mar 8, 2007

MrsJoy said:
But what HAS He done if there is no hell??

If there is "no hell"? Or if "hell" isn't what you think it is?

God burning people alive for all eternity is considered "justice"? Justice for men who are subject to sin and the lusts of the flesh and who are "by nature" disobedient?

angelmom

angelmom01 · Mar 8, 2007

timlamb said:
Many men whom I would characerise as "good" become 'unreasonably' angry at the mention ot Jesus Christ and scoff at His name. This, in Christian belief, cannot be a 'Good' man "there is no one Good except God".

Those who do not accept Christ are not forgiven because they carry their own sin, refusing to give it up. This causes seperation from God. A seperation shich becomes perminant at judgement which does take place.

Is there a real fire? To what degree of torment? I don't know, but I do know it is seperation from "the Giver of all Good things", from Righteousness, from His Love. The last 'age' is the eternal age and that is how long they will remain seperated from God.

If God judges this to be just, who are we to question that? And when we are made Christ-like, we will see, God does not send away anyone capable of living at peace in His kingdom. People who are not serving God are serving as their own God and that will not fit in the community of Gods Kingdom. "I will be their God, and they will be My people", that is the eschatology of this conversation. Those not drawn to Him, no matter how well they know Him, those who seek righteousness and forgiveness for wrong have heard His voice, whether they 'know' Him or not.

How can they separated from God if they are tormented in his presence?

timlamb · Mar 8, 2007

angelmom01 said:
How can they separated from God if they are tormented in his presence?

I know what you are referring to, just can't remember the scripture. Please refresh my memory.

angelmom01 · Mar 8, 2007

timlamb said:
I know what you are referring to, just can't remember the scripture. Please refresh my memory.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

These are the same verse that I was askign about earlier... the next set of verse speak about ~the smoke~ of their torment and then ~after that~ it speaks about the harvest of the earth.

angelmom

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Mar 8, 2007

Ceridwen said:
God will not torture anybody. But he will torment them -- the Bible says so.

God will punish them forever and ever with a punishment not intended to correct them. When God punishes a non-Christian in hell, he has absolutely no interest in reforming them thereby. Instead, his interest is only in destroying them:
Deuteronomy 7:10 KJV:
[God] repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

God is just and holy and that is why he returns evil for evil. This is why we need to plead the blood of Christ.

This is exactly the type of attitude and viewpoint that led me to being a Satanist for over 20 years.

Make of that what you will. (It is not intended as a flame, but an objective statement of my personal experience.)

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Mar 8, 2007

timlamb said:
Many men whom I would characerise as "good" become 'unreasonably' angry at the mention ot Jesus Christ and scoff at His name.

And little wonder that they do, with some of the beliefs and attitudes WE CHRISTIANS attach (ignorantly, in my view) to that Precious Name.

When are we going to wake up and Walk Away from Omelas???

icedtea · Mar 8, 2007

If nobody suffers eternally in hell, then it would seem Jesus died for nothing.

kept · Mar 8, 2007

If nobody suffers eternally in hell, then it would seem Jesus died for nothing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus died to save us from SIN and DEATH..........can you find scripture that says Jesus died to save us from eternal torment in hell?

Also becasue some folks might not roast in an eternal torture chamber you find Jesus died for nothing?

kept

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Mar 8, 2007

HowardDean said:
If nobody suffers eternally in hell, then it would seem Jesus died for nothing.

On the contrary. If anyone suffers eternally in hell, Jesus might then legitimately be thought to have died for nought -- seeing as His death is said to constitute the triumph over death and hell itself.

Pretty hollow triumph if you can't even free the captives you came to free. Fortunately, we are not obligated to believe His power is limited. Jesus' death empties hell and makes it obsolete.

timlamb · Mar 8, 2007

angelmom01 said:
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

These are the same verse that I was askign about earlier... the next set of verse speak about ~the smoke~ of their torment and then ~after that~ it speaks about the harvest of the earth.

angelmom

In all the scripture there is reference to one being punished worse than another, many times in comparason to the suffering of sodom "It will be worse for them than for sodom..."

It sounds as thought the takers of the mark and worshipers of the beast get the worst.

"Depart from me you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels"
That is what he says to the goats in The parable in Matthew. So the holy angels and the Lamb(Christ) will witness the torment of those who worship the beast. I can't see Jesus making an eternity out of viewing this so I take it as Him witnessing their eternal condition, but His attention will be on being God to His people.

BTW- I believe the torment is self induced. Without the peace and comfort of the Holy spirit and goodness of the Lord, the souls of the wicked will be tormented by their lusts and desires that they chose in this life. I can imagine tremendious rage and frustration in the unsatisfied soul, a terrible fate, but it is the one they choose.

JimfromOhio · Mar 8, 2007

kept said:
If nobody suffers eternally in hell, then it would seem Jesus died for nothing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus died to save us from SIN and DEATH..........can you find scripture that says Jesus died to save us from eternal torment in hell?

Also becasue some folks might not roast in an eternal torture chamber you find Jesus died for nothing?

kept

Are you saying that Christ's Atonement means that EVERYONE will NOT go to hell? If you are, you should be aware that is unothordox doctrine and that is "universalism" beliefs.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Mar 8, 2007

How did Jesus deal with it when His disciples wanted to see fire from heaven "consume" those who DID NOT RECEIVE JESUS???

Luke 9:51-56

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Questions to ponder:
(1) Has Jesus changed? (Hebrews 13:8)
(2) Is Jesus a hypocrite? Does He rebuke/chastise His followers for something He does Himself?
(3) What "manner of spirit" is it that desires to see those we disagree with get destroyed? Does God inspire that, or Satan (or selfish flesh)?
(4) Is the purpose of Jesus' mission (coming to earth as a Man, dying on the Cross) merely to demonstrate he has the right to destroy men's lives? Or is it something greater, more glorious, and more wonderful than that? (see verse 56 above).

icedtea · Mar 8, 2007

The bible is clear about it.
See what happens when people are allowed to interpret scripture on their own? I'm starting to think the Catholics are right, it turns out much error filled beliefs. The bible can be twisted to make it seem however one wants to believe.

JimfromOhio · Mar 8, 2007

HowardDean said:
The bible is clear about it.
See what happens when people are allowed to interpret scripture on their own? I'm starting to think the Catholics are right, it turns out much error filled beliefs. The bible can be twisted to make it seem however one wants to believe.

I am seeing people are twisting and selecting scriptures to "fit to" their own beliefs rather than what God actually say. Its a shame.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Mar 8, 2007

I am seeing people -- from ALL sides of this question -- presenting bits and pieces of understanding. It is impossible in the scope of an interactive forum with --
(a) limited post length;
(b) limited attention spans and time to read/post
-- to present every component in one's awareness of scripture to comprehensively present what amounts to one's entire "wholistic" (sum total) awareness of what Scripture teaches. It is only possible to focus on one portion at a time.

Not to mention, as Kept has already pointed out, those of us to whom the question ought to be addressed (because the question is how is it that some do not believe in the traditional concept of hell, something only that "some" can really answer) are prohibited by CF rules from sharing a full disclosure of what we believe and why we believe it, except in the Unorthodox Theology and Liberal Theology forums -- and this thread resides in neither.

I would say, however, that adopting a view that people are seeking to share their understanding a bit at a time -- instead of imagining they are trying to do something sneaky or underhanded with the Word and then putting that notion forward as if it were some absolute axiom -- would go a long way toward understanding one another, and treating one another with the kind of attitude which would honor Christ. Wouldn't you agree?

timlamb · Mar 8, 2007

HowardDean said:
If nobody suffers eternally in hell, then it would seem Jesus died for nothing.

Howard: I spent many months debating this in Unorthodox Theology in the basement of the forums. There is just a whole different mind set to those who believe in universal salvation. Their God is very small and they keep Him in a box. This conversation is relevent to eschatology because universalists see little urgency in salvation.

While we would have faith in God if all were saved, they, for the most part, would abandon God at the proof of the reality of judgement and eternal torment.

Most universalists have a loved one who died shaking a fist at God and so are in denial so to say there is a hell they feel is condemning their loved one.

Most of the people arguing that side right now do not belong here and I would say this thread most likely doesn't either.

icedtea · Mar 8, 2007

Jesus came to die for our sins so we wouldn't HAVE to go to Hell.
Then there is no excuse, we send ourselves there for refusing.
His death would be in vain if we all got saved whether we believed or not.
Its just not fair! to send people to Hell forever! Who do you think originated this idea? Satan, who wanted an out from his sentence.
Its fair, and just. We are without excuse.

holo · Mar 8, 2007

HowardDean said:
The bible is clear about it.
See what happens when people are allowed to interpret scripture on their own? I'm starting to think the Catholics are right, it turns out much error filled beliefs. The bible can be twisted to make it seem however one wants to believe.

First of all, it would be far worse if any one person or institution claimed to have the only valid interpretation of the bible. I'm certainly glad the scribes, the pharisees, the orthodox, the catholics, the pentecostals, the baptists, the liberals, and myself - none of us - has a monopoly on interpretation.

Secondly, my best friend doesn't even believe in hell, and he believes that everybody will be saved eventually. I didn't even realize he believed that before I'd known him for about a year. He rarely mentiones it. But he's by far the most effective soul-winner I know. So apparently, one doesn't need a perticular belief in hell neither to come to Christ nor to bring others to him.

kept · Mar 8, 2007

That brings up the point

IF Jesus paid the price for us and the price for our sin

(And I firmly believe that He did and not mine only but the entire world - He is the Savior of the World)

And the price for our sin is eternal torment in hell (please show verses)

then why did Jesus not remain in hell being tormented forever by the angry God that took out His holy justifiable anger on Jesus on the cross?

The reason why Jesus paid for our sin by going thru DEATH is that DEATH is the penalty for sin (death was the penelty for Adam/Eves sin - no where is Adam or Eve told the penelty of sin was to fry in hell)

not some horror chamber of eternal torment

because if it was then its not paid in full

even logic would have to see that ?

kept

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