Hell is real

What I understand is that teaching or sharing if you will what christian universalism believes is restricted to the unorthodox

perhaps a moderator will see this and address it

kept

God will not torture anybody. But he will torment them -- the Bible says so.

God will punish them forever and ever with a punishment not intended to correct them. When God punishes a non-Christian in hell, he has absolutely no interest in reforming them thereby. Instead, his interest is only in destroying them:
God is just and holy and that is why he returns evil for evil. This is why we need to plead the blood of Christ.

Tonks said:

your rubric leaves out the sticky problem of those that have never heard of Christ. Are these individuals damned through no fault of their own?

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Although a person who has never heard will not be punished for rejecting a theology they had never been exposed to, they will be punished for other evils. It is not Biblical to say that the non-Christians who have never heard are "faultless" of all wrong. The innocent human has no exposure to God's vengeance. Unfortunately, none of us are innocent, not even the non-Christian in deepest Africa.

If God had any interest in bestowing upon them the supernatural gift of justification, he would have bestowed upon them the supernatural gift of faith, upon which justification is predicated. God gives good gifts to those he wishes to, and is nowise limited in his power or will to save those he would save.

The proper response to questions about the non-Christian who has never heard is not to invent unbiblical doctrines whereby a non-professing person could be pardoned, but rather, the proper response is to go out to deepest Africa and let them know about what Jesus did for us on the cross and why.

andross77 said:

In my opinion, if Hell didn't exist, Life would lose a lot of structure and meaning. If i can live however i want and EVENTUALLY i will be won over by Christ (whether it's in purgatory, hades, or hell), there isn't much incentive to live for Christ. I can live for myself on this earth and then when my short earthly existence is over (70 years approximately) i will just eventually be overcome by God's grace. So it's a win-win.

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I hope you're getting more out of your relationship with the Lord than this...

I mean, if life doesn't have "structure and meaning" without the threat of hell... I just don't know what to say to that...

But personally, if hell doesn't exist and everybody gets saved eventually, I'm just as grateful for what Jesus has done for me and I'd cling to him just as hard as I'm doing right now. He's more than a safety belt.

Ceridwen said:

his interest is only in destroying them

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Eternal torture isn't destruction.

But what's with your hangup on punishment, by the way?

HowardDean said:

It did make me think that your faith would say, See? This is what happens when everyone can interpret scriptures for themselves!

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kept said:

What I understand is that teaching or sharing if you will what christian universalism believes is restricted to the unorthodox

perhaps a moderator will see this and address it

kept

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This could probably also be addressed in the section you prefer. Maybe if you made a thread.
I do not see why this thread cannot be in GT.

...so why can't we just look at it in simple form... yes, there is a hell, the bible speaks of it more than once. yes, some of us, christian or not will end up there. doesn't the Bible say both of those things. or am I reading a different book with a swapped cover.

holo said:

eternal torture isn't destruction.

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This is so true. To destroy something means to finish it off completely. To perish is to bring down to nothing.


(Joh 3:16 NASB) "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


As someone else pointed out, the wages of sin is death. Death is thrown into the lake of fire and burned up. Destroyed.

We are given eternal LIFE when we accept Christ. Until then we are under the sentence of death which is not described as being eternal. How can it be eternal when it is destroyed in the lake of fire?

Annihilationism is not a Biblical doctrine. The punishment of the unbeliever will continue without cessation, without end, and without termination. The personal existence and consciousness of the unbeliever will remain forever. The destruction is not an annihilation, but an everlasting ruination which God will achieve:

Psalm 52:5-6 (New International Version)
God will bring you down to everlasting ruin: He will snatch you up and tear you from your tent; he will uproot you from the land of the living. The righteous will see and fear; they will laugh at him.

Ceridwen said:

Annihilationism is not a Biblical doctrine. The punishment of the unbeliever will continue without cessation, without end, and without termination. The personal existence and consciousness of the unbeliever will remain forever. The destruction is not an annihilation, but an everlasting ruination which God will achieve

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In other words, utterly unfair. You believe that God will actually treat people ten trillion gazillion times worse than you would treat your own worst possible enemy, it seems.

I don't know why you have this hangup on eternal punishment and torture, but it obviously doesn't come from your view of a loving Creator.

holo said:

I don't know why you have this hangup on eternal punishment and torture, but it obviously doesn't come from your view of a loving Creator.

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With that concept, atonement and Making Disciples are out of the door and not really a place to discuss spiritually. God is love but people often leave out God is Just. But hey, they will know the truth the day they die. That's between their convictions and God.

Originally Posted by Ceridwen

Annihilationism is not a Biblical doctrine. The punishment of the unbeliever will continue without cessation, without end, and without termination. The personal existence and consciousness of the unbeliever will remain forever. The destruction is not an annihilation, but an everlasting ruination which God will achieve

holo said:

In other words, utterly unfair. You believe that God will actually treat people ten trillion gazillion times worse than you would treat your own worst possible enemy, it seems.

I don't know why you have this hangup on eternal punishment and torture, but it obviously doesn't come from your view of a loving Creator.

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I think that in order for one to understand the justice of God condemning certain people to eternal punishment, one has to be spiritually born again. (John 3:1-8)

One might even come close to understanding it if they have been a life-long victim of social, psychological, and emotional, viciousness by people, without provocation.

HowardDean said:

I hope this is the right forum for this (if not, like that nice poster always says forgive me).
Some people actually believe no one will go to hell and all will be saved.
I disagree!
Can you give me the biblical verses which show this is so?

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Hiya HD!

Well, Jesus Himself said that unless one is born again, he/she will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. He means just that and does not equivocate.

No one can change or disregard that fact. Whoever says otherwise, ask that person if he/she honestly believes that sin will be in heaven. If that were the case, then guess what, they would have no grounds to believe that heaven is a real place that we all go to when we die. In fact, their own belief would be a lie within a lie. See what I'm sayin?

The problem is that according to an unbeliever, the term 'born again' is just another christian cliche word that they've heard time and time again that describes the person on the ouside. But little do they understand that being born again means everything changes on the INSIDE. They don't know or understand that christianity is not on the outside. It's on the inside and that's what God looks at.

HowardDean said:

Revelation 14:11 says forever and ever also.

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Why does it say they are being tormented in fire and brimstone ~while~ the Saints are still "dying in the Lord" and ~while~ the earth is being harvested?

angelmom

holo said:

I don't know why you have this hangup on eternal punishment and torture, but it obviously doesn't come from your view of a loving Creator.

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One thing I think people tend to forget is that though God is love, He is also justice. And those who choose to be on the enemy's side, will indeed, suffer severe consequences; right along with satan, who will suffer more than anyone in eternal torment.

Which is why He gives us all time to come to Him. God DID say that He doesn't wish for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

If Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with "eternal fire" (that is not still burning) and they were turned ~TO ASHES~ "as an example unto those that after should live ungodly".

Then how can we say that the ungodly will be tortured for forever in a fire that will never go out and never destroy them?

angelmom

Why didnt the apostles speak of hell like you hear some speaking of it today? In the KJV "the word" spelled out as "hell" is mentioned only twice in the epistles. Once by Peter (Tartarus) and other by James (gehenna) the words dont appear to be the same.

Nevertheless, in regards to the two times it is mentioned (though they be different words) one of those times is in relation to actually "speaking from it".

If it was that important why didnt the apostles repeat that message speaking more on it?

Peace

Fireinfolding

angelmom01 said:

If Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with "eternal fire" (that is not still burning) and they were turned ~TO ASHES~ "as an example unto those that after should live ungodly".

Then how can we say that the ungodly will be tortured for forever in a fire that will never go out and never destroy them?

angelmom

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That reminds me of something I read awhile back, I saved it in my documents, I posted it once before awhile back. Heres some verses showing this very thing you pointed out.


Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7)--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezek. 16:53-55).

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12)-until--the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17).

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9)-until-- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53).


Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27 --until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6).


An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever"-until--the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is -until-- they "were shattered" Hab. 3 3:6).

The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Ex. 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), that is,--until the Temple was destroyed.

The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until--Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Heb. 4:8,9).

The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11,13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).



The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual"-- until-- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12-13, Heb. 8:6-13).


God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever"-until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);

Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)-until--the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)-until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47).


Israel's judgment lasts "forever"-until--the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13-15).


Paul the apostle understood the "forever until" principle at work in God's redemptive judgments. He knew the heart of God, and Paul also knew God's will, purpose and plan. His knowledge of God's character, will and purpose governed his understanding of Scripture. That is why Paul could appear to contradict the prophet David! Have a look at Romans 11:9-12 in the NIV translation, where David prophesies

in Psalm 69:22:"May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution to them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see and their backs be bent FOREVER."

And observe how Paul responds:

"Again I ask: Did they (Israel) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? NOT AT ALL! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the gentiles (pagans, all who are spiritually unenlightened) to make Israel envious. For if their transgression means RICHES for the WORLD, and their loss means riches for the gentiles--how much greater riches will their (Israel's) fullness bring?"

I'll cut this short here but these are interesting, at least I thought so.


Peace

Fireinfolding