Hell is Payback

/nvm

vinsight4u said:

at His coming

not -comings - not at the time of one million years into the new earth ....not beyond that

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"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."

"...But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom."

"It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33)."

"Four statements in this passage indicate that the
words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
of an end order.

1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).

2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.

3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.
27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be subjected unto the Son. The only exception in this subjection is God the Father.

4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that
all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be ALL in ALL, for He is not the God of the dead (Luke 20:37, 38)."

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

/nvm

vinsight4u said:

as in Adam -all die the first death
this is what they get resurrected from
not resurrected from the second death/lake of fire

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"That God may be All in all" (vs. 28)

v.22 "in Christ" they are to be made alive. The words "in Christ" indicate salvation:

1 Cor.1:2a To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Mark Corbett said:

Do you agree that final punishment involves "payback"?

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Hell is not payback. When God shines his light of truth upon the world (physical and spiritual) those rejecting him and clinging to their desire to sin will be repelled away from God. We should hope and pray there are very few (if any) who are foolish enough to do this.

/nvm

/nvm

/nvm

/nvm

Interesting thread.

/nvm

/nvm

vinsight4u said:

What is "the age hath been kept" supposed to mean?
age -as in it is reserved

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A future age. Scripture speaks of the age to come (Eph.1:21) & at least one age after that (Eph.2:7). The former will include the 1000 year reign of Christ.

The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

EONS AND WORLDS

The Eons

vinsight4u said:

Many before the death of Jesus Christ had already since the days of Adam - gone through the wide gate path - that leads to destuction. It will never lead to life for those dead people, even when they get resurrected at the time of the end of the world.

Isaiah 66 ends with a prophecy as to how it will be on the new earth. The wicked will an abhorring to others. What is the reason that the wicked will be seen by the just - for -as in this is the reason - their worm dieth not.
They are going out every sabbath and new moon time to view the lake of fire inhabitants - because their worm dieth not.

"...they shall go forth, and look...for their worm shall not die..."

For eternity, they will go out -every sabbath -every new moon - and look -and be abhorred. It is not dead bodies they are going out to look upon as the reason - but the part as to - their worm shall not die.

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(1) First of all, Isa.66:22-24 makes no mention of what has become of the souls of the "corpses" referred to:

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(2) Secondly, nothing in verses 22-24 says verses 23 & 24 refer to the lake of fire or the new earth. Consider Option A at the following re a premillennial take on Isa.65 & 66:

Isaiah 65-66: The Vision (Part 3) - Wasilla Bible Church

(3) I wonder how "corpses" (v.24) would survive in a lake of fire. Or worms (v.24) . OTOH worms could survive in a millennial eon garbage dump called Gehenna. As could "corpses" survive that were in parts of the garbage dump that were not completely consumed by fire.

(4) If it were the new earth, why does verse 23 refer to new moons and the sabbath?

“The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory” (Isa.60:19)

Rev.21:22 But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

(5) Even if the reference is to the new earth, if there are still "corpses" of the dead in the lake of fire, how is it that death has already been abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28)?

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

(6) For an interesting take on our passage, there is this alleged view:

"It is interesting that many of these comments touch on the concept that is well-articulated by C.S. Lewis' mentor, George McDonald, in his sermon, "The Consuming Fire." The concept is that God himself is the consuming fire and he will burn away all our iniquities, including those of Satan, who will emerge from the experience as the purified Lucifer, as he was created to be. This is what is pictured in Isaiah 66:24 where all beings will look upon their old selves as carcasses burning in God's eternally consuming fire. To understand this picture one must realize that the perspective is that of a totally redeemed eternal being looking back on his or her past life and sensing some regret for their own sins."

Origen on the Salvation of the Devil

7) In any case, when death is abolished (1 Cor.15:22-28) & all are made new (Rev.21:5, 5:13), the dead in the second death (lake of fire) will rise back to life "in Christ" & God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22,28). IOW there will be universal salvation of every person that has ever lived since Adam was created.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

Mark Corbett said:

Well, I strongly agree and completely disagree with your comment.

I strongly agree that it is best to go with what the Bible teaches. I have tried to do so since I was old enough to begin to understand the Bible, and constantly encouraged others to do so, even when it involves danger, sacrifice, or suffering. I grew up believing in eternal conscious torment. It was precisely because of long, careful study of the Bible that I came to believe in Conditional Immortality. I continue to study the Bible and accept it as my authority. But let me be clear. It is the God's Word itself, and not tradition, popular interpretations, or unsupported assertions about what it means (like yours), which I believe. If you want to attempt convince me of your view (and others like me) you will need to take the time to present Biblical evidence with carefully reasoned arguments.

I strongly disagree that the Bible teaches that the final fate of the unrighteous is eternal conscious torment. In addition to the evidence offered in the OP and other comments, have you considered Psalm 37?

Due to its length, I will not copy all of Psalm 37 here, but I encourage you to read it.

In this Psalm, David says the wicked will wither and die away like grass (Psalm 37:2), be destroyed (Psalm 37:9), “be no more” (Psalm 37:10) so that even if you go looking for them you cannot find them, will perish (Psalm 37:20), will go up in smoke like grass consumed in a fire (Psalm 37:20), will be “completely destroyed” (Psalm 37:28), will pass away and be no more (Psalm 37:36), and will have no future (Psalm 37:38). That sure sounds like annihilation!

The whole point of the Psalm is that while here on earth the wicked sometimes appear to succeed and prosper, in the end, they will be completely destroyed while those who patiently trust God will be rewarded. So all the talk of passing away and being destroyed cannot simply refer to what happens in this present age, since in this age both the righteous and unrighteous die.

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Yet Isaiah 66:22-24 says the wicked will continue to exist even in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the LORD,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the LORD.

And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh

When you isolate a verse from the rest of the scripture, you can make it say whatever you want. We need to understand the whole counsel of God to know the truth of His word.

You say my doctrine is unsupported, but this isn't something the scripture is unclear about. Jesus is actually the clearest teacher on eternal punishment:

Hell is eternal:

Matthew 25:31-46

Mark 9:42-48

Matthew 18:6-9

Other scriptures on eternal hell.

Revelation 14:9-11

Revelation 20:10, 14-15

It's as you said, the Psalm "sounds" like it is teaching conditional immortality because that is the lens through which you are viewing the scriptures. You need to believe what you read and not read what you believe.

ClementofA said:

That's the view of the Islamic Muslim "bible". I wouldn't go with that.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

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That's the view of Jesus Christ who taught there is an eternal hell

Matthew 25:31-46

thesunisout said:

That's the view of Jesus Christ who taught there is an eternal hell

Matthew 25:31-46

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Some literal translations of Mt.25:46 have:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

"2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

"In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called
chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father,
so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively
and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/09/15/from-here-to-eternity-how-long-is-forever/

The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

The fire wasn't eternal & neither is the "eternal fire" or punishment in Mt.25:41,46.

As regards the fate of the Jewish people, earlier in the same gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

ClementofA said:

Some literal translations of Mt.25:46 have:

Young‘s Literal Translation: ―punishment age-during.
Rotherham Translation: ―age-abiding correction.
Weymouth Translation: ―punishment of the ages.
Concordant Literal Translation: ―chastening eonian."

eonian, "αἰώνιος...lasting for an age...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting... (also used of past time, or past and future as well) Derivation: from G165;" G166 αἰώνιος - Strong's Greek Lexicon

"2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

"In the late 2nd century/early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria clearly distinguished between kólasis and timoria: “For there are partial corrections [padeiai] which are called
chastisements [kólasis], which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father,
so are we by Providence. But God does not punish [timoria], for punishment [timoria] is retaliation for evil. He chastises, however, for good to those who are chastised collectively
and individually” (Strom. 7.16)."

https://afkimel.wordpress.com/2013/09/15/from-here-to-eternity-how-long-is-forever/

The "eternal" (eonian) fire that burned Sodom went out long ago:

Jude 1:7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian."

The fire wasn't eternal & neither is the "eternal fire" or punishment in Mt.25:41,46.

As regards the fate of the Jewish people, earlier in the same gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

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Yet the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever in Revelation 14:11 and in Revelation 20:10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. So, we know that the interpretations of it being a temporal age are incorrect. Forever is forever