Hell is Payback

DarkSoul999 · Oct 29, 2017

Mark Corbett said:
In the midst of a discussion on the nature of Hell, I'm thankful for a reminder from Emmy that God is love and as a result our lives should be all about love.

I don't think that means that we should not discuss Hell, or that a correct doctrine of Hell is inconsistent with love. But it's nice to stop every now and then and think specifically about love, which drives all God does and should drive all we do.

I have started and participated in several in depth discussions on the nature of Hell. This doctrine is important and perhaps because it is controversial my threads on this topic tend to get WAY more views than threads I've started on other topics. If you would like a refreshing look at some other topics I'll offer one of my earliest threads, as well as my latest, which I posted yesterday:

Love in Romans

Heart Matters: Jesus Loves Me this I Know

Well from the way I see it loving or hating your enemies depends entirely on the nature of Hell.

If Hell is simply payback for their crimes then yes showing love to them actually "heaps coal upon their heads". It takes away their defense before the divine court "that guy killed me! I might have repented some day if he didn't!"

If Hell is eternal torment then God actually hates that person because that sort of wrath isn't an act of justice but an act of raw unbridled passion not unlike the revenge a very angry human would bring upon an enemy. If someone murders my child and I decide to gauge his eyes out and make him eat them raw....is that justice? No sane person would call that justice. It won't bring my child back either.

Oldmantook · Oct 29, 2017

Mark Corbett said:
You made several careful arguments in comment #95 above. I only have time to respond to one of them now. If I'm able I will try to come back to some of the others.

You quote Phil 2:10:

And then you reason from that verse as follows:

There are some who believe this verse means that the unrighteous will be forced to bow and confess, and I admit that interpretation is possible. However, I believe there is a much more likely interpretation which flows from taking annihilationism seriously. This verse looks forward to a time when every knee will bow and every tongue will confess because at that time the knees and tongues of the unrighteous will no longer exist. They will have been burned to ashes. I wrote about this more extensively in the OP for another thread here:

Ashes Can't Repent (A Big Problem for the Universalist Story)

You have highlighted the difference is our interpretive approaches when you wrote, "...there is a much more likely interpretation which flows from taking annihilationism seriously. In order for you to interpret the scriptures that all knees bow/all tongues confess, based on your annihilist view you need to add the caveat - only after the unsaved are extinguished. The scriptures themselves do not add such a caveat so you are forced to add one in order to support you view. In my interpretive view, the plain and simple reading of the text stands on its own as all means all without the need for any further restriction to the text. A bigger problem though is that Phil 2:10 identifies those "under the earth" as bowing their knees and confessing their tongues. The only people under the earth are those in Hades, the abode of the unsaved dead so by implication even they will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Every knee and tongue includes them which appears to goes against your interpretation that such is the result because the unsaved are first annihilated.

Mark Corbett · Oct 29, 2017

Oldmantook said:
You have highlighted the difference is our interpretive approaches when you wrote, "...there is a much more likely interpretation which flows from taking annihilationism seriously. In order for you to interpret the scriptures that all knees bow/all tongues confess, based on your annihilist view you need to add the caveat - only after the unsaved are extinguished. The scriptures themselves do not add such a caveat so you are forced to add one in order to support you view. In my interpretive view, the plain and simple reading of the text stands on its own as all means all without the need for any further restriction to the text. A bigger problem though is that Phil 2:10 identifies those "under the earth" as bowing their knees and confessing their tongues. The only people under the earth are those in Hades, the abode of the unsaved dead so by implication even they will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Every knee and tongue includes them which appears to goes against your interpretation that such is the result because the unsaved are first annihilated.

Because not all Universalists are identical (and neither are all who hold to Conditional Immortality), I would like to ask if you would mind laying out the sequence of events you think are most likely to occur in between the time a person dies on earth as an unbeliever, and the time they are fully reconciled to God. I'm not looking for a lot of elaborate detail. Specifically, it would help me to understand your position if you explain if and when you expect unbelievers who die in unbelief to come to faith in Christ. I think most Christian Universalists expect that unbelievers will truly repent and come to faith in Christ at some point during their torment after death and that then will be released into God's presence and joy. Perhaps it is when they come to Christ that you see their knees bowing and tongues confessing? But I don't want to assume this is your view, which is why I'm asking.

thesunisout · Oct 30, 2017

Mark Corbett said:
We know that we should not seek to harm those who have harmed us. If fact, we should forgive them and do good to them as the Lord gives opportunity. But putting this truth into practice can be a great challenge when people have faced terrible evil.

I had the incredible privilege of serving the Lord in a Muslim majority nation for fourteen years. I call it a privilege in part because I was able to serve alongside of some incredibly courageous Christians. Here is one short story:

A young lady was learning how to share her faith with her Muslim neighbors. She wanted to do this but was struggling with it. She came to my wife and me for counsel. She told us her story.

Her father had been serving the Lord in a mixed area of Christians and Muslims when Islamic extremists moved in and attacked the area. She was a young girl. After hiding, her family was fortunate to be rescued by the military (the extremists had a militia, but were not part of the government). Her family was placed in the back of a military truck to be driven out of the area to a boat which would take them to relative safety. The truck had boards enclosing the back, but the boards were not tightly fitted so that one could look out the cracks. She looked and saw along the side of the road Christians who had been slaughtered. Now she wanted to reach out to her Muslim neighbors (most of which were not extremists), but this memory made it hard for her.

What do you say to something like that?

The first step in ministering to someone who shares a story like that is taking time to share in their deep hurt. But even for a case this extreme, or rather, especially for cases this extreme, the Bible gives answers.

Part of the answer (a huge, important part) is that Jesus set the amazing example for us by forgiving those who crucified Him. He also offered forgiveness to Paul, who had been involved in persecuting Christians. The blood of Christ is ENOUGH payment for any sin. Even the most terrible, horrifying sins can be forgiven because of the cross.

But not everyone will accept the payment Christ made. In such cases, does the Bible tell us that pay back is wrong? Yes and no. It’s wrong for us to personally seek pay back, but it is not wrong to desire justice, which includes pay back. Paul was writing to a group of Christians who, like the Christians I served among, were facing serious persecution. Notice what he tells them:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Notice that Paul does not say “don’t worry about justice”. Paul says God is just and will pay back those who were persecuting the believers. Paul explains that this will happen when Jesus returns. It’s not wrong to want justice, to want pay back. But vengeance is not our job. It’s God job. God promises to avenge, and uses this promise to free us from the burden and danger of seeking vengeance ourselves:

Romans 12:17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
20 On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Believing in God’s promise to avenge does not make us angry and vengeful. It frees us to forgive and love. Believing that God is just empowers us to take risks and love our enemies and do good to them, hoping that they will be won to Christ, but knowing that some will continue to reject him and do more evil. We aren’t ignoring justice; we are trusting God’s promise to be just and repay in the end.

I have seen how this truth is part of what God uses to set the hearts of Christians who have seen and suffered terrible evil free to minister to others.

This is one reason I’m concerned about wrong views of Hell. These wrong views of Hell are not consistent with God’s promise to avenge and to pay back, and thus, they undermine this important truth.

How Wrong Views of Hell Can Undermine God’s Promise to Avenge

One popular view of Hell is that it does not really involve any active punishment from God. This popular view says that God simply allows those who prefer not to be in His presence to go on existing without Him. Such an existence is sad and unhappy, but does not involve God actively punishing anyone. This idea may sound attractive to some, but it utterly and totally lacks Biblical support. It is contrary to the repeated and consistent teaching of Scripture. God repeatedly promises to pay back people according to their sins. The Bible portrays God as being active in this. Indeed, God is the one who carries out this vengeance.

Sometimes the “mild version” of Hell is combined with the idea that perhaps the lonely, unhappy inhabitants of Hell can leave whenever they choose to by finally accepting Christ. This is a view held by some universalists. They view the purpose of Hell as being correction and restoration, and they consistently deny any element of vengeance. In doing so, they undermine an important Biblical truth which helps us to forgive and minister to our enemies.

There is another error regarding Hell which undermines the truth that Hell involves “payback”. That is the common and widespread belief that Hell involves eternal torment. One of the many problems with the eternal torment view is that the Bible teaches that God will punish the unrighteous “according to what they have done” (Romans 2:6). Some people have committed a lot of terrible sins, but no person has caused any other person torment that lasts longer than billions of years. So why should the payback involve way more than billions of years of torment? A belief in eternal torment is a distortion of God’s justice and promise to repay. There is a further problem with eternal torment with regard to God promising to repay.

If unrighteous people really did deserve to be tortured for eternity then how does God ever fulfill His promise to repay sinners? If the unrighteous “owe” an eternity of suffering as payment for their sins, then even after a million trillion years of torment they would have repaid far less than 1/1000th of 1% of the debt they apparently owe. In this view justice is NEVER complete or fulfilled.

The view which best fits with God’s promise to repay is annihilationism. God will repay each person according to their sins. The final outcome is that they perish (John 3:16), are destroyed by God in both body and soul (Matthew 10:28), and they are burned to ashes (2 Peter 2:6). This second death is permanent, it is eternal, and is itself the primary punishment for sins which is most emphasized throughout Scripture. However, just as death in this life may be preceded by various amounts of suffering, the “second death” also will be preceded by some suffering which will be truly just. God will repay.

What do you think? Do you agree that final punishment involves "payback"? Which view of Hell (eternal conscious torment, universalism, or annihilationism) seems most harmonious with the Biblical teaching of "payback"?

This is a slightly modified (hopefully improved) version of a post on my blog.

The best view is to go with what the bible teaches, which is that hell is eternal, conscious torment.

ClementofA · Oct 30, 2017

thesunisout said:
The best view is to go with what the bible teaches, which is that hell is eternal, conscious torment.

That's the view of the Islamic Muslim "bible". I wouldn't go with that.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Mark Corbett · Oct 30, 2017

thesunisout said:
The best view is to go with what the bible teaches, which is that hell is eternal, conscious torment.

Well, I strongly agree and completely disagree with your comment.

I strongly agree that it is best to go with what the Bible teaches. I have tried to do so since I was old enough to begin to understand the Bible, and constantly encouraged others to do so, even when it involves danger, sacrifice, or suffering. I grew up believing in eternal conscious torment. It was precisely because of long, careful study of the Bible that I came to believe in Conditional Immortality. I continue to study the Bible and accept it as my authority. But let me be clear. It is the God's Word itself, and not tradition, popular interpretations, or unsupported assertions about what it means (like yours), which I believe. If you want to attempt convince me of your view (and others like me) you will need to take the time to present Biblical evidence with carefully reasoned arguments.

I strongly disagree that the Bible teaches that the final fate of the unrighteous is eternal conscious torment. In addition to the evidence offered in the OP and other comments, have you considered Psalm 37?

Due to its length, I will not copy all of Psalm 37 here, but I encourage you to read it.

In this Psalm, David says the wicked will wither and die away like grass (Psalm 37:2), be destroyed (Psalm 37:9), “be no more” (Psalm 37:10) so that even if you go looking for them you cannot find them, will perish (Psalm 37:20), will go up in smoke like grass consumed in a fire (Psalm 37:20), will be “completely destroyed” (Psalm 37:28), will pass away and be no more (Psalm 37:36), and will have no future (Psalm 37:38). That sure sounds like annihilation!

The whole point of the Psalm is that while here on earth the wicked sometimes appear to succeed and prosper, in the end, they will be completely destroyed while those who patiently trust God will be rewarded. So all the talk of passing away and being destroyed cannot simply refer to what happens in this present age, since in this age both the righteous and unrighteous die.

ClementofA · Oct 30, 2017

Mark Corbett said:
In the Psalms, as well as in some prophetic passages, we sometimes see a mix of messages about an immediate situation with messages related to something much bigger in the future.

Psalm 22 is a good example. Parts of the Psalm may indeed be describing David's own anguish and painful experiences. But these give way to a deeper, bigger prophecy about the crucifixion of Christ.

We see this type of thing also in Isaiah 7, where a prophecy about a child being born is indeed about something that happens in Isaiah's day, but it is also about something, Someone, much greater.

I believe that while the promises and prophecies of Psalm 37 may have had some level of fulfillment in David's day, other parts of it go well beyond this and look towards the final fates of both the righteous and unrighteous. Here are some reasons I think this:

1. The major theme of the whole Psalm is that even though evil people do sometimes prosper and succeed now, a time is coming when this will no longer be the case. The righteous will be rewarded and the unrighteous destroyed. But this promise happens only in a VERY limited way here on earth. It's complete fulfillment awaits the coming age.

2. Some of the language about the righteous specifically mentions rewards which last "forever":

NIV Psalm 37:18 The blameless spend their days under the LORD's care, and their inheritance will endure forever.

NIV Psalm 37:27 Turn from evil and do good; then you will dwell in the land forever.

NIV Psalm 37:29 The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.

To me, it seems more likely that the eternal fate of the righteous is being compared to the eternal fate of the unrighteous than that the eternal fate of the righteous is being compared to the earthly, temporary fate of the unrighteous. This is especially true because the two fates are discussed together and contrasted with each other repeatedly.

3. Sure, it is true that wicked people eventually die in this life. But so do righteous people! The Psalm is contrasting the righteous who will dwell in the land forever with the fate of the wicked.

The wicked will wither and die away like grass (Psalm 37:2), be destroyed (Psalm 37:9), “be no more” (Psalm 37:10) so that even if you go looking for them you cannot find them, will perish (Psalm 37:20), will go up in smoke like grass consumed in a fire (Psalm 37:20), will be “completely destroyed” (Psalm 37:28), will pass away and be no more (Psalm 37:36), and will have no future (Psalm 37:38). That sure sounds like annihilation!

4. The following verse seems to fit a final future fate much better than a temporal one:

NIV Psalm 37:38 But all sinners will be destroyed; there will be no future for the wicked.

When are all sinners destroyed? Certainly at no point in David's lifetime. And at what point can it be said that the wicked no longer have a future. There are a lot of wicked people around today who still have a future and this will be the case until the final judgment.

So I am not denying that some of the promises of judgment are partly fulfilled here on earth. However, I do believe that this Psalm (and others) look beyond this age to what God will do at the final judgment in the age to come.

This interpretation relies on the translations of the synonyms OLAM and AD as "forever" even though lexicons & usage shows they are often used of finite duration.

You yourself, Mark, say Psalm 37's "complete fulfillment awaits the coming age." I have no problem with that, seeing as there is more than one coming age (Eph.1:21; 2:7; Rev.11:15, etc).

The righteous in this life will be blessed in that "coming age" whereas the unrighteous will not. Ultimately, though, the unrighteous will also be blessed (1 Cor.15:22, 28, etc).

The wicked will perish & be destroyed, yet God "turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men" (Psa. 90:3).

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

In Psa.37:10 & 36 the words "no more" do not occur in the Hebrew, but just "not" as in not found on the earth in this life, according to the context & similar passages.

In Psa.37:28 the "completely destroyed" of your NIV is an anomaly, as no other version i've seen among dozens says that.

In Psa.37:38 the word for "future" is Strongs 319, acharith, ..end...latter part...of a man's life...outcome... "a future, i.e. a happy close of life, suggesting sometimes the idea of a posterity"..."issue of a course of action". There is no requirement to interpret that as referring to anything beyond the man's earthly life, or a coming age, as opposed to final destiny. The word OLAM in the passage could refer to the present age the Psalmist was living in or a future age such as the millennium.

Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God.........................Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return.....How can one return from "destruction?"
Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts..........................."All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him......................."All" nations!
Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God..........................Are you catching on?
Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God.........................That sounds wondrous.
Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things......................I wish we would believe that.
Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him.............For what purpose?
Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him...............Praise His name!
Ps 145:9 He is good to all..................................Including your worst enemies.
Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works.................Let's start believing that.
Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall.............................Who hasn't fallen in sin?
Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him........................For "eternal torment?"
Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him..........................If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?

Psalm 72

11Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

12For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.

13He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.

14He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.

Psalm 86

9All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

10For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

13For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Psalm 33

8Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

Psalm 90

2Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

3Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Psalm 66

Make a joyful noise unto God, all ye lands:

2Sing forth the honour of his name: make his praise glorious.

3Say unto God, How terrible art thou in thy works! through the greatness of thy power shall thine enemies submit themselves unto thee.

4All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name. Selah.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

devin553344 · Oct 30, 2017

Mark Corbett said:
We were not originally created with the intent that we would die. Death came as a result of our sin. Our sin was wrong. God's reaction to our sin was not wrong. In fact, part of His purpose in not allowing us to live indefinitely after our fall was so that we would not live forever in a miserable state of sin and rebellion:

NIV Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

My belief is that is an incorrect belief, allow me to explain: The original OT Bible says nothing about that God created us to live forever, in fact it says that we would have to take of the tree of life in the Garden of Eden to have lived forever in our sins. Clearly they were created, Adam and Eve to have not lived forever if it weren't for the tree of life, which they had not partaken of. In other words God created us that we die. And then he removed the tree of life from them. But with or without the tree of life, they were created with a short life span God bless.

P.S. let me explain that more clearly. In short words the bible says, God never intended us to live past 120 years because we were always evil. And there is none that would beat the serpent's or woman's temptations and all would sin, and God knew that when he created us. Except for the one Jesus the Christ that was created of the Holy Ghost. And therefore Jesus was of a different creation than man, he was God from the beginning.

Oldmantook · Oct 30, 2017

Mark Corbett said:
Because not all Universalists are identical (and neither are all who hold to Conditional Immortality), I would like to ask if you would mind laying out the sequence of events you think are most likely to occur in between the time a person dies on earth as an unbeliever, and the time they are fully reconciled to God. I'm not looking for a lot of elaborate detail. Specifically, it would help me to understand your position if you explain if and when you expect unbelievers who die in unbelief to come to faith in Christ. I think most Christian Universalists expect that unbelievers will truly repent and come to faith in Christ at some point during their torment after death and that then will be released into God's presence and joy. Perhaps it is when they come to Christ that you see their knees bowing and tongues confessing? But I don't want to assume this is your view, which is why I'm asking.

That's a good question because there a different universalist views. My present understanding is that anyone who does not come to faith in Christ in this life is consigned to the lake of fire. At some point during their time in the lake of fire, he/she will bow and confess. At that time, I don't know whether they will be allowed to enter the New Jerusalem or they will have to wait for some future time when they are allowed to enter the New Jerusalem.

Anguspure · Oct 31, 2017

DarkSoul999 said:
Well from the way I see it loving or hating your enemies depends entirely on the nature of Hell.

If Hell is simply payback for their crimes then yes showing love to them actually "heaps coal upon their heads". It takes away their defense before the divine court "that guy killed me! I might have repented some day if he didn't!"

If Hell is eternal torment then God actually hates that person because that sort of wrath isn't an act of justice but an act of raw unbridled passion not unlike the revenge a very angry human would bring upon an enemy. If someone murders my child and I decide to gauge his eyes out and make him eat them raw....is that justice? No sane person would call that justice. It won't bring my child back either.

Hell is destruction, eternal destruction. The smoke and the flames of thier torment may continue forever but the ones destroyed are gone. Thier names are written in the dust and that is the end of it.

The alternative to the 2nd death that we call Hell is eternal life throught the tree of life, that is Christ Jesus.

Neither Eternal life on the naughty chair nor eternal life after a period on the naughty chair are Biblical options.

Anguspure · Oct 31, 2017

devin553344 said:
My belief is that is an incorrect belief, allow me to explain: The original OT Bible says nothing about that God created us to live forever, in fact it says that we would have to take of the tree of life in the Garden of Eden to have lived forever in our sins. Clearly they were created, Adam and Eve to have not lived forever if it weren't for the tree of life, which they had not partaken of. In other words God created us that we die. And then he removed the tree of life from them. But with or without the tree of life, they were created with a short life span God bless.

P.S. let me explain that more clearly. In short words the bible says, God never intended us to live past 120 years because we were always evil. And there is none that would beat the serpent's or woman's temptations and all would sin, and God knew that when he created us. Except for the one Jesus the Christ that was created of the Holy Ghost. And therefore Jesus was of a different creation than man, he was God from the beginning.

Yes! The Tree of life in the garden is so often forgotten. We were cut off from this fruit following the fall of Adam.

Subsequently it is revealed that Christ is our tree of life. He is the vine and if we remain in Him we will live, apart from Him we die.

Furthermore it is revealed: Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (Rvelation 22)

Those of us who have eternal life only have eternal life in Him, our tree of Life and we must eat and drink of Him forever.

devin553344 · Oct 31, 2017

Anguspure said:
Yes! The Tree of life in the garden is so often forgotten. We were cut off from this fruit following the fall of Adam.

Subsequently it is revealed that Christ is our tree of life. He is the vine and if we remain in Him we will live, apart from Him we die.

Furthermore it is revealed: Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (Rvelation 22)

Those of us who have eternal life only have eternal life in Him, our tree of Life and we must eat and drink of Him forever.

I agree, he kills and makes alive, wounds and heals: Deuteronomy 32:39

Mark Corbett · Oct 31, 2017

Oldmantook said:
In order for you to interpret the scriptures that all knees bow/all tongues confess, based on your annihilist view you need to add the caveat - only after the unsaved are extinguished. The scriptures themselves do not add such a caveat so you are forced to add one in order to support you view.

Don't we both have to add something? Right now all knees are not bowing and all tongues are not confessing. Something has to change to get to that point. I have tried to illustrate this by comparing our views in this graphic (you may be able to see it better by clicking on it):

You believe that all the unrighteous will come to faith in Christ in the Lake of Fire and that this will lead to a situation where every knee bows.

I believe that the knees and tongues of the unrighteous will be burned up to ashes and thus only righteous knees and tongues will remain so that all knees bow and all tongues confess.

The question is: which of these two options has better Biblical support?

The Bible no where speaks of people repenting after death and final judgment.

The Bible specifically speaks of the unrighteous being burned to ashes (Malachi 4:3, Matthew 3:12, Matthew 13:30, 2 Peter 2:6). This is also consistent with the Biblical teaching that God will destroy the bodies and souls of the unrighteous (Matthew 10:28), they will perish (John 3:16), and they will "not see life" (John 3:36).

vinsight4u · Oct 31, 2017

vinsight4u · Oct 31, 2017

vinsight4u · Oct 31, 2017

Oldmantook · Oct 31, 2017

Mark Corbett said:
Don't we both have to add something? Right now all knees are not bowing and all tongues are not confessing. Something has to change to get to that point. I have tried to illustrate this by comparing our views in this graphic (you may be able to see it better by clicking on it):

Yes all are not bowing/confessing in this present church age but that fact does not obviate the possibility that all will bow/confess in some future age according to the workings and plan of God.

Mark Corbett said:
I believe that the knees and tongues of the unrighteous will be burned up to ashes and thus only righteous knees and tongues will remain so that all knees bow and all tongues confess.

The problem with your explanation as I see it is that Phil 2:10 specifically states that even those who are under the earth will bow and confess Jesus. Those under the earth are the unsaved dead in Hades. According to this verse even they will bow and confess - according to my view when they are resurrected from Hades and thrown into the lake of fire. It does not say as you claim that they are burned up and don't confess so that only those who remain are the only ones confessing.

Mark Corbett said:
The Bible no where speaks of people repenting after death and final judgment.

In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem.

One must also ask for what reason(s) did Jesus descend into Hades. To whom did Jesus preach the gospel to in Hades - was it to those who died in belief or to those who died in unbelief? 1 Pet 3:19-20 states: "by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." So it appears that Jesus preached to those in Hades who died in unbelief since they were the ones who were disobedient.

The pertinent question would then be why would Jesus be preaching to the unbelieving and disobedient dead and what was his message?
1 Pet 4:6 states: "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."
This verse plainly states that the gospel was preached to the dead - the disobedient dead according to 3:19. This directly contradicts the evangelical teaching that the opportunity to hear the gospel exists only in our lifetimes as Jesus preached the gospel to the disobedient dead in Hades. Since Jesus preached the gospel to the disobedient dead in Hades, would it not be reasonable to speculate or even conclude that He will also preach the gospel to those who end up in the lake of fire?

And what was the result of Jesus' preaching the gospel in Hades?
1 Pet 4:6 states that they were judged as men in the flesh (the standard by which all humankind is judged) in order that they would live in the spirit. Could this possibly mean that they were saved as a result?
Eph 4:7-8 states: "But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.” This passage states that grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Since we know that Christ's gift is immeasurable we can conclude that the grace that was given is also immeasurable. Immeasurable grace/gift would make perfect sense in the context of Jesus giving the disobedient who were already dead a chance to hear the gospel resulting in their salvation. In addition, Eph 4:8 is a reference to Ps 68:18 which states: "You ascended the high mount, leading captives in your train and receiving gifts from people, even from those who rebel against the Lord God’s abiding there." The captives whom Jesus received gifts from included the rebellious dead. It seems that the rebellious dead are no longer rebellious since even they gave gifts to Christ. "God exalted Him and gave to Him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bend, of those in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth" (Phil 2:9-10).
Given the context of these passages, it seems to me that Jesus according to his purpose through the ages, does indeed save all as all men will eventually repent.

ClementofA · Oct 31, 2017

Oldmantook said:
In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem.

That recalls some passages in the OT about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

Oldmantook · Oct 31, 2017

ClementofA said:
That recalls some passages in the OT about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

Yes, the basis for our common belief is that all means all. If God desires that all men be saved, he will see to it that it comes to pass - one way or another. That is why the gospel is ultimately the Good News for all of mankind and not just for the small minority.

ClementofA · Oct 31, 2017

Mark Corbett said:
The Bible specifically speaks of the unrighteous being burned to ashes (Malachi 4:3, Matthew 3:12, Matthew 13:30, 2 Peter 2:6). This is also consistent with the Biblical teaching that God will destroy the bodies and souls of the unrighteous (Matthew 10:28), they will perish (John 3:16), and they will "not see life" (John 3:36).

We could ask, what part of man - spirit, soul or body (1 Thess.5:23) - becomes "ashes"? If it is only the body, then any references to "ashes" do not inform us of what happens to the soul or spirit of man.

As to souls being destroyed or perishing, this is the same Greek word used of the prodigal son in his lost & figuratively dead condition, who became found and alive again. He was never annihilated or beyond being redeemed or saved.

Re those who are not seeing life, Jn.3:36 applies this to those not believing/obeying in the Son. All Christians were at one time unbelievers & not seeing life. The verse puts no time limits on when one can become a believer & see life.

Jn.3:36 also says of those who do not believe, that the wrath of God remains on them. That would be pointless & impossible if they were annihilated out of existence forever.

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

The contrast in Jn.3:36 is between seeing life & God's wrath, not between seeing life and endless death. Scripture never speaks of endless death. Instead, it says death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:22, 26, 28).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

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