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prophecystudent

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The part I don't understand is,

Why would God allow Christians who have a very large history of sin to go to heaven, while God also sends men who are agnostics to hell. Even when the agnostic sinned a considerable amount less than the Christian.

How is this just?

You leave out the part about God providing the "once for all" blood sacrifice to pay for mankind's sin.

The "price" we pay for that payment for our sins is simply to accept God's free offer of salvation. We accept that Christ paid the price for our sins, accept the free offer of salvation and are saved.

Those who do not accept God's free gift of salvation do not experience the eternal bliss promised by the bible, and Christ.

As far as one person sinning more than another, the question has no bearing on this issue. Indeed, God said that he who breaks the least of the commandments is as guilty as if he had broken them all.

God sees believers and unbelievers. Sinners and forgiven. Right and wrong.

God provided us with a way to avoid that lake of fire. In one way you could consider it the second "one question test" that God gives to mankind. The first was in Paradise when God told Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Single question test. Adam failed it.

Now God provides a second single question test, "Do you accept My offer of salvation by accepting My Son's death on the cross as payment for your sins"?

If the answer is "yes" the test is over and you pass. If your answer is no, the test is over and you fail.

Simple as all that.

Fred
 
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prophecystudent

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I would hope all would agree that God keeps His own commandments? And that it is by the Law that man will be judged at the Great White Throne judgment?

Small problem with your theology here. It is true that those judged at the Great White Throne judgement will be judged according to the "law". The sticking point here is that only the unsaved will be judged then. That happens at the end of the millenium, solely for the unsaved people. Those saved will be judged at another time, and it is their WORKS that will be judged. The result of that "judgement" will determine the rewards given that believer in accordance with his/her works. It has nothing to do with his/her salvation.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Judgment is according to the Law.

Nowhere in the Law is eternal torment given as punishment for sins done in the flesh. And all sin is judged according to what the sin is, it is not just one general judgment for every sin.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. Sin is sin. No sin is greater, or lesser, than any other. God has said that one who breaks any of the laws is as guilty as if he had broken them all. It is truly a "binary" system in that one is either guilty or innocent. That depends soley upon one's relation to Christ.



Torture is never given as punishment for sin. If it is, then why is Jesus not in the Lake of Fire now, burning for all eternity?

Jesus in not in the lake of fire now because He NEVER SINNED. If He had sinned then His sacrifice on our behalf would be worthless. Only innocent blood could/does pay the price for committing sin against God. In the OT it was the blood of a blameless lamb to cover the sins of the sinner. That lasted until the next time the sinner committed another sin. Then another lamb had to be sacrificed.

Christ, the Perfect Lamb of God, was sinless throughout His life and even His death. God provided this perfect Lamb as a once for all solution/sacrifice for all mankind. Only one provision, we have to acknowledge it and accept the free offer.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment and torture.

Read the rest of the bible. It is abundantly clear as to what happens to unbelievers. "And the smoke of their torment rises up forever and forever."

Fred
 
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Ben12

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It is like the whole Bible revolves around John 3:16; it does not and it in one of my favorite verses but there is much, much more.

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Resurrection means to rise; notice the word unjust. Should I spell it out; in other words the righteous and the sinners.

One of the problems we have had is that we have thought that God intended all along to save all who would ever be saved during this age! That is not the case at all. Acts 15:16 attests to this as do other scriptures. "After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: (Why, why, why?)THAT THE RESIDUE (the rest, the remainder)OF MEN (of mankind) MIGHT SEEK AFTER THE LORD, and all the Gentiles upon whom my name is called . . ." IN THE NEXT AGE AND "IN THE AGES TO COME!" "He that raised us up together, and MADE us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:(Why?)That in the ages to come HE MIGHT SHOW(show it to whom except to those who are yet to bend the knee and bow the heart?)THE EXCEEDING KINDNESS OF HIS GRACE IN HIS KINDNESS TOWARD US THROUGH JESUS CHRIST" --Ephesians 2:6,7. "For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting" --Eph.2:8 CLNT (Concordant Literal New Testament).



Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

 
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7angel

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the victory of Jesus?

If most of the human beings they will undergo an eternal punishment according to many believers

Where is the victory?

Where this the love of God?

Where its wisdom?

Where its great power?

God does not complain itself for always, says the bible, lies the bible? I do not create it!



Psalms
Chapter 24
1 1 A psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S and all it holds, the world and those who live there. 2 For God founded it on the seas, established it over the rivers. 3 Who may go up the mountain of the LORD? Who can stand in his holy place? 4 2 "The clean of hand and pure of heart, who are not devoted to idols, who have not sworn falsely. 5 They will receive blessings from the LORD, and justice from their saving God. 6 Such are the people that love the LORD, that seek the face of the God of Jacob." Selah 7 3 Lift up your heads, O gates; rise up, you ancient portals, that the king of glory may enter. 8 Who is this king of glory? The LORD, a mighty warrior, the LORD, mighty in battle. 9 Lift up your heads, O gates; rise up, you ancient portals, that the king of glory may enter. 10 Who is this king of glory? The LORD of hosts is the king of glory. Selah
 
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Ben12

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What is more important to you; your religion, your friends, your local body or what God is truly saying. How many Catholics/Baptist or what ever religion would never except something out side their camp because of tradition, family and friends. There comes a place in this argument I believe this is the only reason for the bias.

Isaiah 4: 1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Let get real and let me express it the way I see what you are saying; you are saying that Jesus is going to send billions to a torture chamber with no end. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, 62 million deaths, 1917-'87; the People's Republic of China, 35 million, 1949-'87; and the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, 21 million, 1933-'45. In other your doctrine of eternal torment will torture not millions but billions for ever. Baby’s, children, mothers and fathers; does not matter if they were born Buddhist in ancient Japan; no excuse; or they died before christians ships were even allowed on the Island; no mercy. Billions of God people who have never heard the name of Jesus because geographical location, political, religious taboos; no mercy and that is your god’s justice.

 
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Nadiine

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the victory of Jesus?

If most of the human beings they will undergo an eternal punishment according to many believers

Where is the victory?

Where this the love of God?

Where its wisdom?

Where its great power?

God does not complain itself for always, says the bible, lies the bible? I do not create it!



Psalms
Chapter 241 1 A psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S and all it holds, the world and those who live there. 2 For God founded it on the seas, established it over the rivers. 3 Who may go up the mountain of the LORD? Who can stand in his holy place? 4 2 "The clean of hand and pure of heart, who are not devoted to idols, who have not sworn falsely. 5 They will receive blessings from the LORD, and justice from their saving God. 6 Such are the people that love the LORD, that seek the face of the God of Jacob." Selah 7 3 Lift up your heads, O gates; rise up, you ancient portals, that the king of glory may enter. 8 Who is this king of glory? The LORD, a mighty warrior, the LORD, mighty in battle. 9 Lift up your heads, O gates; rise up, you ancient portals, that the king of glory may enter. 10 Who is this king of glory? The LORD of hosts is the king of glory. Selah
You make statements PRESUPPOSING that what you think about hell gets imposed on God - JUST BCUZ YOU THINK IT or want it that way.

I'll submit one more time something that seems to escape you guys - God Loves every person on the planet.
Yet, God ALLOWS little children to be molested and abused DAILY in mass numbers around the world.
God allows innocent people every day to get tortured, attacked and hurt.

According to the love YOU think God has (where He just lets sin go and winks at it - as if just becuz you say "i'm sorry for my sin" after visually seeing God and your punishment in front of you, it's all kool) God shouldn't be allowing any 3 year old girls to be raped & beaten.

You basically ignore the displays of violence and evil God allows to come to people HE LOVES, then claim God can't condemn a soul for rejection of His Son's payment on the cross.
(ultimate slap in the face).

If you reject God's own words to you (which you seemingly HAVE DONE) to embrace your own personal theology, you've either called God a liar by refusing to believe it, or you have little to nothing to base your own beliefs on - you've changed the bible / & God to suit your preferences and thoughts.

Wouldn't it be idolatry to make up & create your own doctrines contrary to scripture teaching to set up the god you prefer rather than the one clearly defined.

YOu don't seem to care if humanity REJECTS JESUS CHRIST - and it's apparent that you dont seem to care what the bible openly spells out about His principles and plan.
So be it - it's been given to you guys.
 
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Nadiine

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What is more important to you; your religion, your friends, your local body or what God is truly saying. How many Catholics/Baptist or what ever religion would never except something out side their camp because of tradition, family and friends. There comes a place in this argument I believe this is the only reason for the bias.

Isaiah 4: 1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Let get real and let me express it the way I see what you are saying; you are saying that Jesus is going to send billions to a torture chamber with no end. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, 62 million deaths, 1917-'87; the People's Republic of China, 35 million, 1949-'87; and the National Socialist German Workers’ Party, 21 million, 1933-'45. In other your doctrine of eternal torment will torture not millions but billions for ever. Baby’s, children, mothers and fathers; does not matter if they were born Buddhist in ancient Japan; no excuse; or they died before christians ships were even allowed on the Island; no mercy. Billions of God people who have never heard the name of Jesus because geographical location, political, religious taboos; no mercy and that is your god’s justice.
Let me spell out what you're doing - IGNORING GOD'S OWN WORDS OF SCRIPTURE to replace your theology according to your opinions and flawed views of what LOVE & MERCY are.
Hebrews comes right out & tells you who gets God's mercy and who gets no mercy.

Mercy ENDS after we die. Our MERCY IS RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW when we have time and opportunity to hear the gospel of truth and TURN FROM OUR SIN to accept Christ's payment on the cross.

After that is judgment. Christians are judged for reward (no 2nd chances for us either). All people are judged on what they've have done in the body, it's sentencing - punishment time.
Those not under the LAW OF CHRIST (called "the law of Christ in our NT) are UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES.
Each soul is under one law or the other - one is GRACE & pardon from God, one is letter of the law without a sacrifice for their sin.
THEY BEAR THE FULL WEIGHT OF THEIR SINS that they didn't repent of.

That payment is their eternal punishment in the lake of fire - where all evil will be contained so as not to contaminate God's creation ever again.

Heb 10: 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY " And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You guys can deny what's written out and spelled out clearly to replace your own beliefs, I can't and I won't.
And I most certainly won't JUDGE GOD according to my own flawed perspectives of what love, mercy, righteousness, holiness and justice are.
 
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Nadiine

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One other thing that I think people aren't considering in this whole subject is the DEGREE of reward and punishment that comes in God's justice.

Does a human judge give equal sentencing to all people? NO. It's outrageous to think that a woman who stole a paper clip at work is worthy of the same punishment that a child molester would receive.
BOTH DID WRONG and broke the law - both deserve punishment, the issue is, they don't deserve the IDENTICAL PUNISHMENT for the level of crime.

Justice doesn't mean everyone is on the same level.
It's my FIRM belief, that you'll have many many people who were kindhearted and moral who won't be suffering very much at all with their lighter sentences.

I get that concept from Jesus' own statements:

Matthew 10:15
"Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Matthew 11:24
"Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."

Also Paul:
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

We even see the judgments of God in the OT where God repaid those who were doing evil with equivalent punishment to fit their injustice.

(just found this verse that could have been used in previous posts):
Jude 1:7
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

GOD IS JUST. We either trust that He is fair or we don't. BUT YOU MUST BASE IT ON HIS WORD and character/attributes!. We don't base justice and fairness according to our personally flawed views of them -
GOD IS LOVE - His very attribute is love as it is justice and righteousness . You do not innately have the attribute of righteousness even as a believer!
The righteousness a born again believer has, IS CHRIST OVER THEM. You have NONE of your own!

SO HOW DO YOU JUDGE A RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY GOD who must judge sin by your own standards? :doh: WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE HOW GOD OPERATES OUTSIDE WHAT HE TELLS YOU?

We've shown you verse after verse that spells this out.

My suggestion would be to BELIEVE GOD and start seeking to accept His authority and character as He has laid them out for you in His word.
Instead, I see you trying to force God to conform to you and fit inside your little box - as if you have a better handle on what love and justice are.
You don't. (and neither do I).
 
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Ben12

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Let me spell out what you're doing - IGNORING GOD'S OWN WORDS OF SCRIPTURE to replace your theology according to your opinions and flawed views of what LOVE & MERCY are.
Hebrews comes right out & tells you who gets God's mercy and who gets no mercy.

Mercy ENDS after we die. Our MERCY IS RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW when we have time and opportunity to hear the gospel of truth and TURN FROM OUR SIN to accept Christ's payment on the cross.

After that is judgment. Christians are judged for reward (no 2nd chances for us either). All people are judged on what they've have done in the body, it's sentencing - punishment time.
Those not under the LAW OF CHRIST (called "the law of Christ in our NT) are UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES.
Each soul is under one law or the other - one is GRACE & pardon from God, one is letter of the law without a sacrifice for their sin.
THEY BEAR THE FULL WEIGHT OF THEIR SINS that they didn't repent of.

That payment is their eternal punishment in the lake of fire - where all evil will be contained so as not to contaminate God's creation ever again.

Heb 10: 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY " And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You guys can deny what's written out and spelled out clearly to replace your own beliefs, I can't and I won't.
And I most certainly won't JUDGE GOD according to my own flawed perspectives of what love, mercy, righteousness, holiness and justice are.

You have been on this debate with me for a long time and I am not ignoring God’s Word; every verse there is a counter explanation, every doom and gloom answer is rebutted not ignored. You are just as guilty as I am when it comes to ignoring opinions. Your bias is torture, torment, for ever and ever; the Jesus I know would NEVER do such a horrible thing; and why should He; His will will be done on earth as it is in heaven ( Iguess those words are not as important as defending your doctrines of damnations). Where does it say “mercy ENDS after we die”? See there you go again quoting your opinion; well let me quote scripture:

1 Chronicles 16:34
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

A sinner cannot except Christ because they are dead in trust passes and sin; do we need to go round and round with freewill and choice another dogma not found in scripture but taught so they can condemn the lost; where does it say no second, third or forth or thousand chances; that is what God’s people will be doing in the kingdom; not sitting around playing harps (Tabernacle of Davis). Punish means prune, chastised in the original language but no that is not good enough; you want everlasting torture.

Your opinion on justice would better fit the justice of Hitler, Stalin, Osama Ben Laden, Stalin, Mao, Tim Mcveich and what ever carnal monster this world can produce; this is not the Jesus I know. You see and understand the letter that killeth, that is all you know and understand; you will go out of your way to defend this doctrine of Damnation, or damnable heresies no matter what totally ignore God’s love and mercy. It takes the blood of Jesus to save, not some Law of Moses; more garbadiegoop to defend your torture dogma. God has all eternity to take the sin of Adam and reverse the curse and reverse the curse by the blood of the lamb.
 
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james415

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You have been on this debate with me for a long time and I am not ignoring God’s Word; every verse there is a counter explanation, every doom and gloom answer is rebutted not ignored. You are just as guilty as I am when it comes to ignoring opinions. Your bias is torture, torment, for ever and ever; the Jesus I know would NEVER do such a horrible thing; and why should He; His will will be done on earth as it is in heaven ( Iguess those words are not as important as defending your doctrines of damnations). Where does it say “mercy ENDS after we die”? See there you go again quoting your opinion; well let me quote scripture:


1 Chronicles 16:34
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.


A sinner cannot except Christ because they are dead in trust passes and sin; do we need to go round and round with freewill and choice another dogma not found in scripture but taught so they can condemn the lost; where does it say no second, third or forth or thousand chances; that is what God’s people will be doing in the kingdom; not sitting around playing harps (Tabernacle of Davis). Punish means prune, chastised in the original language but no that is not good enough; you want everlasting torture.

Your opinion on justice would better fit the justice of Hitler, Stalin, Osama Ben Laden, Stalin, Mao, Tim Mcveich and what ever carnal monster this world can produce; this is not the Jesus I know. You see and understand the letter that killeth, that is all you know and understand; you will go out of your way to defend this doctrine of Damnation, or damnable heresies no matter what totally ignore God’s love and mercy. It takes the blood of Jesus to save, not some Law of Moses; more garbadiegoop to defend your torture dogma. God has all eternity to take the sin of Adam and reverse the curse and reverse the curse by the blood of the lamb.
Amen!

Gods grace is greater than any sin.

Romans 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
 
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Nadiine

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Amen!

Gods grace is greater than any sin.

Romans 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
YES, FOR THOSE LIVING RIGHT NOW WHO ARE UNDER THE GRACE PERIOD!

You cannot take verses that teach about God's grace and mercy over the Living who right now have choices to accept Christ or reject their sacrifice to cover their sin and place that over those who made their final choice and died.

"It is appointed man once to die, THEN JUDGMENT".

The bible doesn't teach that AFTER GOD IS PROVEN TO US VISUALLY UPON JUDGMENT, WE CAN THEN CHOOSE GOD once we see He's true.
SALVATION IS FAITH. Eph 2. For it is by grace THRU FAITH. Faith isn't visual proof of God's existance and punishment.

The scriptures have been given here, deny them or accept them; but dont' erase ours to replace YOURS.
Doing so is creation of a religion & god to suit your preferences & opinions.

Please look up Idolatry.
 
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Ben12

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God created all people to include all sinners; we are all under the curse of Adam to sin until God draws/drags us. I will also add even when that happens we are still under the bondage of sin. This can best be demonstrated by all the christians/ pastors who are child molesters, wife beaters etc.

How do we reconcile these two opposite forces (love and hate; good and evil). How, on the one hand, can we say that God loves all men, yet on the other hand declare certain “doom” on those who do not repent of their sin? There is no doubt in my mind that God will indeed put an end to every wicked thought, motive, and deed, but this begs the question “Will God also put an end to the poor wretched soul who is guilty of such atrocities?” If God “damns” the sinner forever, how can we really say that He loves all men? Does He love “sinners” now, but hate them after He pronounces His judgment? If our premise is true that “God loves the sinner, but hates the sin,” is it possible for Him to accomplish the destruction of sin without the element of eternal torture? Is the “orthodox” church right when it says that most men will be “damned” forever with absolutely no hope for salvation?

The Church misunderstands the purpose of God’s judgments, and consequently, misrepresents His character to the world. Rather than viewing all of God’s judgments and punishments from the perspective of the “spiritual man,” Christians have instead interpreted them out of the “natural man”—a man desiring retribution against his enemies. Most of us have been taught that the “natural man” spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor. 2:14 applies only to unredeemed man, however, Christians are just as capable of thinking and walking in the natural (carnal) realm. One needs only to look at the current state of the church with all of its division and strife to see that this is true. This is why Paul exhorts us to “renew our minds” and to “walk in the Spirit.” It is for this very reason why I believe the Church has embraced the false doctrine of never-ending punishment. The “natural man” simply cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and so it is this same natural man who has ruled over the “new man” and prevented us from seeing the true purpose for God’s judgments.
There is a very simple and scriptural explanation to what appears to be an irreconcilable dilemma, which “if we have ears to hear,” will explain how God’s love and His judgments perfectly compliment each other. The Bible is filled with metaphors, parables, and symbolism, which if not properly interpreted in the Spirit, can lead us away from the truth instead of toward it.

This is the same mistake people make when trying to reconcile God’s love with the pronouncement of His judgments. Many read the Bible and see two contradictory views of God: first, the fiery God of judgment as described in the Old Testament, and second, the Christ of love as demonstrated in the New Testament. Some, confused by this apparent contradiction, reject the Bible as the inerrant Word of God. However, when we study the subject of God’s judgments, we must not take the “hard” passages by themselves, but instead, must study them in the light of God’s enduring love and mercy. Take them alone, and we have a god whose forgiveness and mercy is limited; but take them in light of God’s everlasting love and compassion and we see that there is no contradiction at all—the glove of God’s judgment fits perfectly over His hand of love.

Let there be no doubt that God will destroy the wicked and all his evil works (Ps. 145:20; Ps. 7:9), but how can God judge the sinner yet not contradict His love for all men? The answer to this question is so very simple, and yet has been grasped by so few: God will destroy all sinners by making them friends! Paul tells us that this is exactly what happened to us.

Rom. 5:10
For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life;


We were once by nature, children of wrath (Eph. 2:3), and the sons of disobedience, (Eph. 2:2), and in fact, in our flesh, we are still yet enemies of the Cross. (Phil. 3:18) But just as God brought us from the depths of our despair and is in the process of changing us from an enemy to a friend, think it not a strange thing for God, who is rich in mercy and partial to none, to do this same work in other men in the ages to come. Col. 1:20 says that Christ will reconcile all things (lit. remove all enmity between two parties) to the Father by the blood of His Cross. God’s purpose for judgment is not to torment eternally, but to destroy all the evil works of the flesh, and when this great work of judgment is completed, all sinners along with their wickedness will have been totally destroyed—forever! This process is not a pleasant one, nor will God spare any torment needed to accomplish His goal. The self-will and stubbornness of man will be completely broken by God’s righteous judgment, and what will come forth will be the “restoration of all things” (Acts 3:21) as every created thing will be brought to a full knowledge of God through the Cross of Jesus Christ. Phil. 2:10-11 says “that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” 1 Cor. 15:28 says that when this happens God will be “all in all.” There will not be a trace of sin or death in the entirety of God’s universe. What a day of rejoicing that will be!!
 
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Nadiine

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Col. 1:20 says that Christ will reconcile all things (lit. remove all enmity between two parties) to the Father by the blood of His Cross.

And reconcilliation IS TO REMOVE THE EVIL AND THOSE WHO CHOSE TO EMBRACE IT BY THEIR OWN WILL.
Hell is not a 2nd chance! It's the penalty phase for what was already committed in life.
Read Luke 16 - THE RICH MAN DIDN'T GET OUT OF THERE, and he saw the need to get word (proof) back to his brothers TO ACCEPT GOD before they ended up in the same place he did!

Luke 16:
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Visual PROOF to prove that Christ rose from the dead (or that God exits) to accept God isn't granted to the rich man's brothers for them to convert... AND IT GOES TO PROVE THAT VISUAL PROOF OF GOD UPON JUDGMENT ISN'T VALID TO CONVERT either. IT'S NO LONGER FAITH.

Parable or not, the details show you - and parables were meant to relay a REAL LIFE PRINCIPLE.... it's teaching that it's permanent and we get NO PROOF OF GOD to convert to Christ! THIS IS IT. Accept by FAITH, or pay for your own sins.

God’s purpose for judgment is not to torment eternally, but
DESPITE WHAT THE BIBLE TELLS YOU in all the verses that spell it out...
:swoon:

Phil. 2:10-11 says “that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”
"every knee shall bow"... DOES IT SAY THEY'RE IN WILLFUL SUBMISSION and repentant??? No. More creation of a theology.

If you do some study in the OT system of conquering your enemy, the captives were forced to bow and proclaim the King who overtook them. It was a form of humility- DEFEAT.

You're again LEAPING to your preconcieved belief. You can't IMPOSE YOUR BELIEF into a verse.
You're essentially doing this: "The bible says God loves all. Therefore, God doesn't allow us any pain or suffering". The premise is true, YOUR SUBSEQUENT SUPPOSITION IS FALSE. (and contradicts scripture).

This is called creating truth for yourself based on your presuppositions and personal understanding.

Bowing and confessing Christ is Lord IS DEFEAT TO THE REBELLIOUS WHO REJECTED HIM.
Remember, the "gnashing of teeth" at judgment?? Gnashing is derrision - bitter anger, hatred, disgust...

It is FORCED upon them to admit that HE IS LORD to the glory of God.

God doesn't live in your Box - please, let Him out.
 
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Nadiine

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PS> to claim ALL get to heaven despite rejection of Christ, violates Jesus' own truth claim:

YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN. Sending the disciples out on the Great Commission - to preach the gospel to all nations.
There is no POINT in witnessing to the Lost to convert to Christ, IF THEY GET THERE ANYWAYS, PLUS HAVE FUN DOING IT THEIR WAY.

Your entire theology refutes the Bible's plan of salvation and necessity of it.

With that said, I shake the dust from you becuz you're rejecting scriptures shown.
Using YOURS to REFUTE OURS/MINE means you're making the Bible say what you want it to, not reconciling ALL OF SCRIPTURE to come to the truth God gave us.
IE: the scriptures self refute one another.
It's either ALL truth from God, or you have NOTHING to base absolute truth about God .
 
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james415

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YES, FOR THOSE LIVING RIGHT NOW WHO ARE UNDER THE GRACE PERIOD!

You cannot take verses that teach about God's grace and mercy over the Living who right now have choices to accept Christ or reject their sacrifice to cover their sin and place that over those who made their final choice and died.

"It is appointed man once to die, THEN JUDGMENT".

The bible doesn't teach that AFTER GOD IS PROVEN TO US VISUALLY UPON JUDGMENT, WE CAN THEN CHOOSE GOD once we see He's true.
SALVATION IS FAITH. Eph 2. For it is by grace THRU FAITH. Faith isn't visual proof of God's existance and punishment.

The scriptures have been given here, deny them or accept them; but dont' erase ours to replace YOURS.
Doing so is creation of a religion & god to suit your preferences & opinions.

Please look up Idolatry.

You can believe that man’s will is done on earth if you want; that will not prevent you from being saved. But I, on the other hand, believe that the will of God will be done on earth, and that His will is that not one man will be lost.

Matthew 18:12-14 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.

Romans 9:16-18 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Romans 9:20-21 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Romans 5:18-19 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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Nadiine

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You can believe that man’s will is done on earth if you want; that will not prevent you from being saved. But I, on the other hand, believe that the will of God will be done on earth, and that His will is that not one man will be lost.
HIS WILL IS ALSO THAT NONE SIN! Yet we all know man sins.
God has a will, and HIS WILL is that once you reject the Son of God - refusing a blood sacrifice over your sin, THEN HE WILLS TO JUDGE AND CONDEMN THAT SOUL for under the penalty of HIS LAW that He initiated.

One is either under LAW OF MOSES OR LAW OF CHRIST.
Reject Christ, and you're thrown under the OT LAW and it's penalties.
Christ fulfilled that law FOR THOSE WHO WOULD ACCEPT HIS PAYMENT in this life.

GOD'S WILL IS THAT HIS LAW BE OBEYED AND FOLLOWED- and He will condemn and judge righteously in order to comply with His own laws.
Jesus complied with that law - he paid the penalty - anyone not accepting that, PAY THE PENALTY, BEARING THEIR OWN PENALTY FOR SIN.

Use all your verses, but they apply to the LIVING RIGHT NOW UNDER HIS GRACE COVENANT.
Once you die, these verses stop applying. (and however else you want to try to manipulate them to suit your opinion)

IT IS APPOINTED MAN ONCE TO DIE, THEN JUDGMENT. (not "then, another chance after see God in person and the fate that awaits you).
(penalty phase). Not 2nd chances. this is the time of choice & decision for Christ. WE'RE UNDER HIS MERCY RIGHT NOW.
faith is salvation. One doesn't use "FAITH" after seeing God in His vengeance on their sin. :idea: Eph 2:8-9

You guys are CREATING A RELIGION to suit your preferences, ignoring the clear verses given to you on God's justice and wrath at judgment time.
 
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Nadiine

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25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny. What Jesus says, in verse 26?
how you interpret it?

If it pays (the repentance) it will leave the prison
Let me prove the misuse of scripture- WHEN GOD EXPLAINS AND DEFINES that He will condemn souls for rejection of His Son - IT MEANS THAT.

The verses above which relay to THE LIVING right now, principles given to live by, are being used to DEFY AND DENY GOD'S CLEAR STATEMENTS on how He will judge AFTER LIFE.
Once one is dead and rejected God.

So what's being done is, verses that are given to us on how to live and please God right here and now, are being used in rebellion and in deference of His clearly defined statements on how he handles AFTER DEATH issues.
You're wiping out all those verses to inject these as if they apply to DEATH.
He already told us judgment (punishment) follows death becuz we're judged on what we did WHILE IN THE BODY.

You cannot usurp all the verses that explain His judgment process for the Lost and shove His verses that apply to how to live here as if they also fit DEATH.

IT DOESN'T CHANGE TRUTH FOR U.
 
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james415

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HIS WILL IS ALSO THAT NONE SIN! Yet we all know man sins.
God has a will, and HIS WILL is that once you reject the Son of God - refusing a blood sacrifice over your sin, THEN HE WILLS TO JUDGE AND CONDEMN THAT SOUL for under the penalty of HIS LAW that He initiated.

One is either under LAW OF MOSES OR LAW OF CHRIST.
Reject Christ, and you're thrown under the OT LAW and it's penalties.
Christ fulfilled that law FOR THOSE WHO WOULD ACCEPT HIS PAYMENT in this life.

GOD'S WILL IS THAT HIS LAW BE OBEYED AND FOLLOWED- and He will condemn and judge righteously in order to comply with His own laws.
Jesus complied with that law - he paid the penalty - anyone not accepting that, PAY THE PENALTY, BEARING THEIR OWN PENALTY FOR SIN.

Use all your verses, but they apply to the LIVING RIGHT NOW UNDER HIS GRACE COVENANT.
Once you die, these verses stop applying. (and however else you want to try to manipulate them to suit your opinion)

IT IS APPOINTED MAN ONCE TO DIE, THEN JUDGMENT. (not "then, another chance after see God in person and the fate that awaits you).
(penalty phase). Not 2nd chances. this is the time of choice & decision for Christ. WE'RE UNDER HIS MERCY RIGHT NOW.
faith is salvation. One doesn't use "FAITH" after seeing God in His vengeance on their sin. :idea: Eph 2:8-9

You guys are CREATING A RELIGION to suit your preferences, ignoring the clear verses given to you on God's justice and wrath at judgment time.
You are ignoring the underlined part of the verse you quoted.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
 
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Ben12

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JEHOVAH (LORD)
Judgment: Every time God judges a matter it was not from anger as humans know it, but from zeal to show forth His righteousness.

God is not only teaching His Word but also His Nature.

Jehovah T’ Sidkinu, The LORD OUR Righteousness (Jer. 23:6)
Jehovah M’ Kaddesh, The Lord Who Sanctifies (Lev. 20:7)
Jehovah Shalom, The Lord our peace (Judges 6:24)
Jehovah Shammah, The Lord our ever Present God (Ezek. 48:35)
Jehovah Rapha, The Lord our Healer (Ezek. 15:26)
Jehovah Jireh, The Lord our provider (Gen. 22:14)
Jehovah Nissi, The Lord our Victory (Ex. 17:15)
Jehovah Rohi, The Lord our Shepherd (Ps. 23:1)
Jehovah T’sur, The Lord our Strength (Ps. 19:14)

In Jehovah, we see the righteous Judge. This was the aspect of God’s nature that the Jews considered the most important. They expected Jesus — if He were truly the Messiah — to pour some "fire and brimstone" judgments upon the Romans to deliver His people and set Himself up as king. A suffering Saviour who came to free His people from the bondages of sin so that they could be partakers of His divine nature, did not appeal to them. That was not how they saw God.
Sad to say, we are faced with the same attitude in the church system today. Whatever the denomination, the emphasis is on the nature of God as portrayed by His Name, Jehovah. This is almost the only aspect of His nature that they understand. A problem arises when the "judgment" aspect of His nature is considered by itself, with no regard for the other characteristics of His nature which make a perfect balance. As one person said, "I go to church and they just tell me how awful I am and that I’m going to a place I don’t want to go."
The name Jehovah is first introduced in Genesis, chapter two. You will see here two names together: LORD God. This means "Jehovah-Elohim." There is a very good reason why these two names should be linked. First, you must understand what aspect of God’s nature Jehovah depicts. We will compare the two names so that you can see the difference. First, in Elohim we see One whose Love works with His creation and overcomes all — no matter what its condition. His will prevails over all hindrances. There is no human condition so low that He cannot "save to the uttermost." In Elohim, we see the nature of God’s Being. And His Being is LOVE! (A mother’s love is a shadow of His great love). We could say that Elohim shows God loving unconditionally because His nature is LOVE. He "has sworn" to love us and to make us like Himself!
The name Jehovah reveals God as TRUTH — and the Truth that His nature is righteous is THE EXPRESSION OF HIS BEING. It shows love in its relation to certain qualities in the loved one. In all truest love there must be righteousness. Jer. 23:6 expresses the meaning of Jehovah very clearly: ". . . and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. And His people, even the New Jerusalem — those born from above — shall share His nature — for the Lord will also call them by this same name. ". . . .Jerusalemshall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, the Lord our righteousness" Jer. 33:16.
Jehovah loves righteousness because that is His true state of Being. Evil is not true being — but the negation of it — therefore evil is not eternal. Because evil is not true, it must be opposed and judged. He who "loves righteousness and hates iniquity" finds in all evil something atagonistic to His nature. Therefore, He must judge all evil until it is destroyed and "mortality is swallowed up of life." This is the lesson of the second name of God revealed to us.
Let us look at how our understanding of these aspects of God’s nature affect His people. We have met some followers of Christ who claim to be "sons", yet they feel they can live however they like and it doesn’t matter because God’s Love is unconditional. One young man said to us, "The Lord doesn’t care what I do in the flesh. He’s only interested in my spirit." This is knowing only Elohim — One who loves "in spite of" man’s condition. Knowing the Lord in this limited aspect of His nature can lead to "greasy grace" — a place of presumption — that gives no regard to the truth that His nature is also righteous and He must judge sin in us. If He does not, we could never become like Him, for to become like Him, we must see Him as He is.
Then, there is the other side of the coin. Those who know Him only by His nature reavealed in the name Jehovah become judgmental and harsh because they say He is "of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity. . . "Heb.1:13. They talk like a sinner must be cast out of His presence because of his sin, for the Lord can’t stand to look upon evil! This word "look" means "to look intently at; to regard with pleasure, favor or care." This new revelation of God’s nature shows us that evil must be judged because it crosses His nature, and is antagonistic to it. He is now considering the quality of our being and judging that which is opposed to His righteousness.
Do you see why the words LORD God (Jehovah-Elohim) are used together? The Jews were actually afraid to pronounce "Jehovah" by itself. They would read "Adonai" instead, or "Elohim", for they knew Jehovah was the aspect of God’s nature that would judge their unrighteousness. Our Father would have us to understand that what He is in his Being and how He expresses that Being must go hand-in-hand or we do not see Him truly. When He judges, it is not without love and mercy! He must judge, but it is for our good, not for punish ment —but to correct us! I have heard one parent say to to the other one, "It is not fair that I should have to perform all the discipline in the family, and you do all the loving and giving. It makes me look like an ogre and it makes you ‘the good guy’. We need to come to a balance here, because we both love our children and yet we must judge their bad behaviour so that they will grow up to be a credit to us." This is exactly what I am saying about the nature of God! We ought not to regard Him only by one aspect of His nature.
We need to achieve a balance between "I can do anything I want because God’s Love is unconditional" and "God’s going to get me if I fall or fail." We need to first see Elohim — unconditional love — not dependent upon our state —but upon His relationship to us. Then, we need also to see that His nature is Truth — and the true expression of His nature is righteousness. And, though He loves us, He must deal with the sin in our nature. He does this on the basis of HIS LOVE FOR US, not on a basis of WRATH BECAUSE WE ARE SINNERS and He is too holy to look upon us! He more than looked upon our sin — He bore it upon Himself!
 
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Nadiine

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I'm spelling out what God has said about judgment AFTER DEATH -
using verses that apply to LIFE during God's period of grace and mercy to us - giving us time as He calls us to repentance, don't work for your cause.
When God tells you outright that He's judging a certain way, then trying to inject verses that apply to principles for LIFE here fail miserably.
You cannot manipulate them to cover how judges the lost after their death.

Matthew 25:44-46
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

1 Cor 6:
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:21
envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.


Rev 20:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Mark 9:
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Christ or Judgment

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. (The Spirit and Father are both witnesses)
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY " And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Rom. 9:
15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Jude 1:7
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Mat. 7:
22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Rev 14:
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (no rest = conscious/aware)

Rev 19:
20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 21:8
" But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.

Mt. 12:
35"The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.

36"But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (not 2nd chances to try again).

Luke 12:
4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Mt. 8
12) But the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8:11-12).

Luke 16:
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

"you MUST be born again".

There are actually more verses that support eternal condemnation. These verses cannot be removed and rejected in order to use others.
Using verses to self refute one another only prove your Bible contradicts itself.
ALL SCRIPTURE WORKS TOGETHER TO BRING FULL TRUTH.​
 
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