Weird, I was just talking about this.RadG said:
@@Paul@@ said:
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8893096&postcount=1
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Hell, Hades, Sheol??? Where'd he go?
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http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8893096&postcount=1
RadG
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I probably should of made my question to BT more clear. If you look at verse 19 it says that He wnet and preached unto the spirits in prision. Verse 20 explains more about these spirits so where on earth or in Heaven is this prison that contains the spirits of these wicked men mostly from before the flood.Crazy Liz said:
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Hi RadG,RadG said:
Let me know if my post helps...
I don't think it's important where He went, just what He did AND to whom.
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RadG
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I was wanting to get the point of view from one who doesn't believe that Jesus went down to Hell, ie look at my original post it was directed towards one statement made by such a person.@@Paul@@ said:Hi RadG,
Let me know if my post helps...
I don't think it's important where He went, just what He did AND to whom.
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Ephesians 4:9
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
"Lower parts of the earth" is also a Hebrewism for the womb (Psalm 139). Just a thought.
Before Jesus gave up the ghost ("No man taketh my life from me"), he cried out "into thy hands I commend my spirit". He also shouted "it is finished." The act of redemption was completed (and justified by His resurrection).
I just note this because of the Word-Faith/Carman heresy that teaches that Jesus was totured by Satan for three days in "hell". The everlasting fire has been prepared for the devil and his angels, but he's not there yet, nor has he ever been there (Matt 25). There seems to be much confusion these days concerning these matters.
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Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
"Lower parts of the earth" is also a Hebrewism for the womb (Psalm 139). Just a thought.
Before Jesus gave up the ghost ("No man taketh my life from me"), he cried out "into thy hands I commend my spirit". He also shouted "it is finished." The act of redemption was completed (and justified by His resurrection).
I just note this because of the Word-Faith/Carman heresy that teaches that Jesus was totured by Satan for three days in "hell". The everlasting fire has been prepared for the devil and his angels, but he's not there yet, nor has he ever been there (Matt 25). There seems to be much confusion these days concerning these matters.
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I don't believe He went to "Hell".RadG said:
He went to prison... the abyss... the deep... the bottomless pit... Where the angels are reserved in chains....
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
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Ok Sorry RadG. I've been away from the thread for a bit. Let me help clarify the verses in 1 Peter.RadG said:
First I'll make this statement. Christ descended into the Grave, more precisely into the Paradise of the grave, and led out those who were awaiting Him. This is where he brought the thief.. ok so anyways back to 1 Peter
(Here is one opinion)
vs. 19 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"
He went and preached; an emphatical mode of expression, common in the Hebrew language, meaning he preached.
So, in Ac 1:1, "all that Jesus began both to do and teach," means merely all that Jesus did and taught; and in Mt 9:13, "Go ye and learn," &c., means, simply, learn.
--Unto the spirits in prison; that is, perhaps to mankind, in their state of guilt and condemnation. See Isa 42:7, where the lost and helpless condition of men is represented as an imprisonment from which the gospel brings release.
The meaning seems to be, that Jesus Christ, after suffering death, rose again by the power of the Spirit, and by the same Spirit brought the offers of pardon to mankind, who were under sentence of condemnation by the divine law; in consequence of which, as the writer goes on to explain in the 1Pe 3:20-21 a few are now saved, through baptism, just as in ancient times, in consequence of the preaching of Noah, a few were saved by the ark.
Some suppose that the preaching here spoken of refers not to the general proclamation of the gospel to mankind, but to the warnings given by Noah to his generation, which they consider this passage as showing were inspired by Christ. Others suppose that this passage means that, during the interval between the Savior's death and his resurrection, he made the offers of salvation to departed spirits in the invisible world. The interpretation first given appears best to accord with the design of the writer in his remarks. In fact, the latter would seem to detach the passage entirely from its connection with what precedes and follows it. Besides, it is impossible to give any reason, if Jesus offered salvation to any departed spirits, why, of all the generations of the dead, the contemporaries of Noah alone were preached to in their prison.
Here's another idea (from Albert Barnes)
By which. Evidently by the Spirit referred to in the previous verse--en w--the Divine nature of the Son of God; that by which he was "quickened" again, after he had been put to death; the Son of God regarded as a Divine Being, or in that same nature which afterwards became incarnate, and whose agency was employed in quickening the man Christ Jesus, who had been put to death. The meaning is, that the same "Spirit" which was efficacious in restoring him to life, after he was put to death, was that by which he preached to the spirits in prison.
He went. To wit, in the days of Noah. No particular stress should be laid here on the phrase he went." The literal sense is, "he, having gone, preached," etc. --poreuqeiV. It is well known that such expressions are often redundant in Greek writers, as in others. So Herodotus, "to these things they spake, saying"--for they said. "And he, speaking, said;" that is, he said. So Eph 2:17, "And came and preached peace," etc. Mt 9:13, "But go and learn what that meaneth," etc. So God is often represented as coming, as descending, etc,, when he brings a message to mankind. Thus Ge 11:5, "The Lord came down to see the city and the tower." Ex 19:20, "The Lord came down upon Mount Sinai." Nu 11:25, "The Lord came down in a cloud." 2Sa 22:10, "He bowed the heavens and came down." The idea, however, would be conveyed by this language that he did this personally, or by himself, and not merely by employing the agency of another. It would then be implied here, that though the instrumentality of Noah was employed, yet that it was done not by the Holy Spirit, but by him who afterwards became incarnate. On the supposition, therefore, that this whole massage refers to his preaching to the antediluvians in the time of Noah, and not to the "spirits" after they were confined in prison, this is language which the apostle would have properly and probably used. If that supposition meets the full force of the language, then no argument can be based on it in proof that he went to preach to them after their death, and while his body was lying in the grave.
And preached. The word used here (ekhruxen) is of a general character, meaning to make a proclamation of any kind, as a crier does, or to deliver a message, and does not necessarily imply that it was the gospel which was preached, nor does it determine anything in regard to the nature of the message. It is not affirmed that he preached the gospel, for if that specific idea had been expressed it would have been rather by another word--euaggelizw. The word here used would be appropriate to such a message as Noah brought to his contemporaries, or to any communication which God made to men. See Mt 3:1; 4:17; Mr 1:35; 5:20; 7:36. It is implied in the expression, as already remarked, that he did this himself; that it was the Son of God who subsequently became incarnate, and not the Holy Spirit, that did this; though the language is consistent With the supposition that he did it by the instrumentality of another, to wit, Noah. Qui facit per alium, facit per se. God really proclaims a message to mankind when he does it by the instrumentality of the prophets, or apostles, or other ministers of religion; and all that is necessarily implied in this language would be met by the supposition that Christ delivered a message to the antediluvian race by the agency of Noah. No argument, therefore, can be derived from this language to prove that Christ went and personally preached to those who were confined in hades or in prison.
Unto the spirits in prison. That is, clearly, to the spirits now in prison, for this is the fair meaning of the passage. The obvious sense is, that Peter supposed there were "spirits in prison" at the time when he wrote, and that to those same spirits the Son of God had at some time "preached," or had made some proclamation respecting the will of God. As this is the only passage in the New Testament on which the Romish doctrine of purgatory is supposed to rest, it is important to ascertain the fair meaning of the language here employed. There are three obvious inquiries in ascertaining its signification. Who are referred to by spirits? What is meant by in prison? Was the message brought to them while in the prison, or at some previous period?
I. Who are referred to by spirits? The specification in the next verse determines this. They were those "who were sometime disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah." No others are specified; and if it should be maintained that this means that he went down to hell, or to sheol, and preached to those who are confined there, it could be inferred from this passage only that he preached to that portion of the lost spirits confined there which belonged to the particular generation in which Noah lived. Why he should do this; or how there should be such a separation made in hades that it could be done; or what was the nature of the message which he delivered to that portion, are questions which it is impossible for any man who holds to the opinion that Christ went down to hell after his death to preach, to answer. But if it means that he preached to those who lived in the days of Noah, while they were yet alive, the question will be asked why are they called "spirits?" Were they spirits then, or were they men like others? To this the answer is easy. Peter speaks of them as they were when he wrote; not as they had been, or were at the time when the message was preached to them. The idea is, that to those spirits who were then in prison who had formerly lived in the days of Noah, the message had been in fact delivered. It was not necessary to speak of them precisely as they were at the time when it was delivered, but only in such a way as to identify them. We should use similar language now. If we saw a company of men in prison who had seen better days--a multitude now drunken, and debased, and poor, and riotous --it would not be improper to say that "the prospect of wealth and honour was once held out to this ragged and wretched multitude. All that is needful is to identify them as the same persons who once had this prospect. In regard to the inquiry, then, who these "spirits" were, there can be no difference of opinion.
They were that wicked race which lived in the days of Noah. There is no allusion in this passage to any other; there is no intimation that to any others of those "in prison" the message here referred to had been delivered
In any respect with any form of sound exegesis we can not drag from these verses the ill conceived concept that Christ was somehow sent to a place of punishment to redeem the wicked of ages past. The implication is simply not Biblical, it is fantasy.
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There is no coming back yes.. but. You are wrong to say Angels are not there.BT said:
First:
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels?
...can not be a referrence to "Good" Angels as the good to not need to be judged..2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
I'm sure you've looked up the greek word used for hell there.
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Possible but I don't think so@@Paul@@ said:There is no coming back yes.. but. You are wrong to say Angels are not there.
Agreed! However this is the future tense and these angels are not yet in hell... they will be after the judgement but for now.. they are all around us (we call them demons commonly...)
Indeed! And this is yet future. The part that is significant is "delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved".. again this is future tense. Where are they? in chains (see revelation it is there that they are released prior to the judgment)...2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;I'm sure you've looked up the greek word used for hell there.
Oh they'll get there, but as for now, they are not there nor have they been there... But oh yeah, they're going there.
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Exactly!!!! And that's who Christ proclaimed what just happened too - The spirits in prison...!BT said:Possible but I don't think so
Agreed! However this is the future tense and these angels are not yet in hell... they will be after the judgement but for now.. they are all around us (we call them demons commonly...)
Indeed! And this is yet future. The part that is significant is "delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved".. again this is future tense. Where are they? in chains (see revelation it is there that they are released prior to the judgment)...
Oh they'll get there, but as for now, they are not there nor have they been there... But oh yeah, they're going there.
at least that's my 2c.
"Dudes, you guys are gonna get judged by a bunch of humans - HA".
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Hey! Stay on track, we were talking about angels here not people. Christ did not proclaim what had just happened to angels who were in hell (or prison)...@@Paul@@ said:Exactly!!!! And that's who Christ proclaimed what just happened too - The spirits in prison...!
at least that's my 2c.
"Dudes, you guys are gonna get judged by a bunch of humans - HA".
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OK,, BUT... To me that IS on track.BT said:
I believe He proclaimed what happened to Angels in chains, located in prison; not in "HELL".....
...........The Angels that left their first estate and took daughters of men.
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Yeah you're getting a whole mish-mash of theology confused. The idea that he proclaimed anything to Angels in chains is unscriptural. The "angels" that took daughters of men were not angels the phrase is "sons of God" most believe that these were Sethites, any way you slice it it is hard to come to the conclusion that angels had intimate relations with human women, but that is off track. Logically speaking there is no reason for Christ to proclaim anything to the angels in chains. Why would he? From all accounts there is no redemption for those angels who fell, so what would be the purpose? That He proclaimed anything to angels in chains has no Biblical value or context, nor does it serve a purpose according to the Gospel (which was for man not angels), nor does it fit in with Ephesians 4:8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. ". Nor does it solve the issue of those who had died in times past who could not have been "In Christ", nor does it explain the purpose of taking the thief to "paradise" after His death. Nor does it fit with the ressurection account of having been raised prior to ascension. Nor does it give a sensible account of the three days. Anyway you slice it it makes no sense, Biblically or even logically (understanding of course that our logic does not exclude the actions of God, whose logic is far beyond us).@@Paul@@ said:OK,, BUT... To me that IS on track.
I believe He proclaimed what happened to Angels in chains, located in prison; not in "HELL".....
...........The Angels that left their first estate and took daughters of men.
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