Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[Dan1988]

And the same may as easily b said of you, so you don't really accrue many Eternal Life Brownie Points for having been created a Good Guy instead of a Bad Guy, do you? It's also worth pondering whether one can actually know which uniform they're wearing.

Sure, once you accept your belief that God created 2 different kinds of beings to populate this planet. Real People who were created to live forever in God's realm, and Evil Robots who exist only as foils to the Real People and to be maintained as object lessons to the Real People They illustrate to the Real People that He could as easily have made them Evil Robots doomed to be tormented forever so as to demonstrate to the Real People how fortunate they are the God didn't decide to give them the same treatment He gives the Evil Robots.

Except that He said that the Father could destroy us in hell. Oh, I forgot, He didn't really mean destroy, He really meant something else that wouldn't interfere with your doctrine.

"Praise ye the Lord, Whose hatred/malice/vengeance/viciousness endure forever."

But it is fair for you to paint God as a malevolent oriental despot. Right.

I'm grateful for that,

THat doesn't appear to be the way you actually view it.

Because He's either created you to live forever in Heaven or live forever in Hell. Not a thing you can do about it either way, so do whatever you feel like doing; it makes not an iota of difference in the end.

Doesn't matter in any case, does it? You're an NPC that does what the code make it do.

Talk about filling in the blanks, do you really think that God has to justify everything He does to the likes of yourself. You come across like a control freak, who demands detailed explanation of every single thing God does.

• Isaiah 40:13-14 These verses highlight that God has no need for counsel from humanity.
  • "Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has taught Him?"
  • "With whom did He take counsel, and who instructed Him, And taught Him in the path of justice? Who taught Him knowledge, And showed Him the way of understanding?"

 

[RamiC]

Yes I was once like you, and the gospel was hard to swallow. It was awful and bitter, but God kept drawing me back to it over and over again.

You said this "Now for a dose of the bitter medicine, also known as the awful truth." in post #648.

There is no "bitter medicine" or "awful truth" in the gospel...it is Good News..."The gospel is the “good news” because it contains the exceedingly wonderful message of God’s redemption of sinful humanity through the death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ. The gospel is the heart, the central core of Christian preaching. The English noun gospel comes from the Anglo-Saxon term godspell, meaning “glad tidings.” It is translated from the Greek evangelion, which means “good message.” Originally, the word was related to news of military triumph. But when the New Testament was recorded, its writers assigned the term gospel to the “good news” of salvation in Jesus Christ."

The blue is a link!

 

[Andrewn]

Christ taught them the gospel so it stands to reason they were given a chance after Christ died and rose again. For what other reason would he preach the good news to them? What are your beliefs?

Christ shared the Gospel with the spirits that were in prison before his death and resurrection. In “The Great Divorce,” C.S. Lewis suggests that Christ might still be reaching out to those spirits that continue to go to the prison or Hades. If this were the case, those who may end up being annihilated could be a very small proportion of people.

But you probably don’t agree with this idea, right? Do you believe the majority of people / spirits will be annihilated?

I know many believe in soul sleep but I don't see why Christ would even mention a gulf that divides them. Yes, it's a parable but I believe the gulf is based in reality.

In the past, I had discussions with SDA's who believe in soul sleep and I rejected their ideas. Now that I distinguish the soul from the spirit, I may not object to soul sleep, so long the consciousness of the spirit is affirmed (which SDA's do not affirm). BTW, SDA's believe in Annihilism after awakening at the Last Judgment.

I have not changed my mind about the personality continuing to exist in or with the conscious spirit after death. I agree with you that the parable of Rich and Lazarus is based on reality. I am interested in learning your beliefs.

 

[Dan1988]

This website might cover it,

"The Bible tells us that God reveals Himself to humans in four primary ways. All that God has created in nature discloses who He is. Our consciences (the human mind and heart) bear witness to the existence of God. He reveals Himself to us through His Word and the person of Jesus Christ. The first two ways that God reveals Himself to us are general and limited. But the second two avenues of revelation are personal, full, and complete."

Your post #638 says "If you seek to get into the mind of God, then you are guilty of practicing Witchcraft." Attempting to understand God is not the definition of witchcraft, reading the Bible and repenting of sin and using the Lord's Prayer are all entirely acceptable ways of reaching out to God, who most certainly does desire for us to understand him (while of course respecting the fact that He is God and we are not). None of those things are "witchcraft".

Trying to know the mind of God via witchcraft is wrong.

Your post #626 says "God never gave anybody a choice, you have no choice. There is no such thing as free will," as opposed to Billy Graham UK website, here - Which says "At the same time, the Bible does tell us two very important truths about Adam and Eve’s sin. First, it tells us that they were completely free to love God – or to reject Him. In other words, they weren’t robots! God’s warning was clear: “You must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die” (Genesis 2:17). So, the Bible says God did give the human race a choice, and right from the beginning of the human race. " (bolding mine).

Where you say "Nobody can escape Satan's grip on them, if God doesn't free the captive, then nothing else can.", also in post #626, I agree with you, but if we do choose to ask God to free us from Satan's power, He is going to free us from Satan's power, He told us how to pray...

“This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’

Matthew 6:9-13 NIV (Bolding mine).


The "born again believers" are people. They do not cease to be people and become something else by becoming "born again", they are human beings. I do not believe that all are saved, but that the people who are, are people.



If someone walks past a bit of graffiti that says "John 3-16" and then looks it up and starts to seek out what that means, that person made a pretty good start on finding something out about God. To get "regenerated" they need to start somewhere.

I was hoping to find at least one, biblically correct view in all of that, but sadly there were none. I can't wipe your slate clean and install a fresh operating system. You wouldn't allow anything that makes you uncomfortable, into your programming.

All I can do is pray that the Lord would give you the gift of understanding. The fear of God is the beginning of understanding. How does one know if what they hold to is actually true, most professing Christians believe they will know the truth when they hear it. But that's an arrogant claim, because it's saying "I already know the truth, so I'll know it when I hear it".

Most professing Christians have p-resume they are naturally wise and they're beyond being deceived with false doctrine. They evaluate and examine everything they and read, then they draw their own conclusions, based on their own wisdom and understanding.

Gods Word warns against leaning on our own understanding and trusting in our own wisdom.

 

[JulieB67]

Christ shared the Gospel with the spirits that were in prison before his death and resurrection.

I base my belief on how these verses state he died and was quickened in the Spirit. Which we know means revitalized in the Greek.

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"

I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

It seems to me he went there after his death and by that Spirit went to them. People going all the way back to the days of Noah.

I Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead."

I Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

This tells me he's treating both the living and the dead the same by preaching the gospel to both. And that the dead live (quick) in the spirit. So if the gospel is being taught to them, they are indeed aware.

Do you believe the majority of people / spirits will be annihilated?

I don't think I really have a belief on that other than there are definitely enemies of the cross that willingly want to follow Satan at the end, the number as the sand of the sea. That's how deceptive he is. It would seem to be a large number. But that's at the very end of the 1000 years which I do believe in with Christ being at the helm. But others believe differently on that as well.

In the past, I had discussions with SDA's who believe in soul sleep and rejected their ideas. Now that I distinguish the soul from the spirit, I may not object to soul sleep, so long the consciousness of the spirit is affirmed (which SDA's do not affirm).

Yeah, it's definitely a subject that I continue to study for myself. That's why I like to take them all and weigh them against each other like the Peter verses and Christ's parable about the gulf.

And with Solomon stating that the spirit returns to God. Some believe that means his spirit while others believe it's ours, etc. Being resurrected on the "last day" is one that seemingly would suggest soul sleep. But I just don't believe Christ would use a parable that wasn't at least based in reality. And then I pair that with the Peter verses and that's where I'm still at.

 

[RamiC]

I was hoping to find at least one, biblically correct view in all of that, but sadly there were none.

Please share with all of us where your understanding of "Biblically correct" comes from.

I can't wipe your slate clean and install a fresh operating system. You wouldn't allow anything that makes you uncomfortable, into your programming.

Good, because the Lord Jesus is the only person who should ever do that, He is God.

The fear of God is the beginning of understanding.

"The “fear” that perfect loves casts out is the fear of God’s judgment. We know that Judgment Day is coming, but those who are in Christ know the love of God, which drives away fear of condemnation. The dismissal of the fear of judgment is one of the main functions of God’s love. The person without Christ is under judgment and has plenty to fear (John 3:18), but, once a person is in Christ, the fear of judgment is gone. He is reconciled to God, and “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”" (Romans 8:1).

"In summary, the word perfect in 1 John 4:18 means “complete” or “mature,” and the love that is referred to is God’s selfless agape love. The fear that this perfect love drives out is the fear of punishment. We have God’s promise that believers in Jesus Christ will not be judged with the world: “God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thessalonians 5:9; cf. 1 Corinthians 11:32). We can say with the psalmist, “In God I trust and am not afraid” (Psalm 56:11)."

What is the meaning of “perfect love casts out fear” (1 John 4:18)? | GotQuestions.org

How does one know if what they hold to is actually true, most professing Christians believe they will know the truth when they hear it. But that's an arrogant claim, because it's saying "I already know the truth, so I'll know it when I hear it".

Do you believe that you will know the truth when you hear it?

Most professing Christians have p-resume they are naturally wise and they're beyond being deceived with false doctrine. They evaluate and examine everything they and read, then they draw their own conclusions, based on their own wisdom and understanding.

How do you know this?

Gods Word warns against leaning on our own understanding and trusting in our own wisdom.

Yes it does. 10 Key Bible Verses on Wisdom and Discernment

 

[Andrewn]

This tells me he's treating both the living and the dead the same by preaching the gospel to both. And that the dead live (quick) in the spirit. So if the gospel is being taught to them, they are indeed aware.

Perfect. It sounds like you believe Christ continues to preach the Gospel in Hades / the spirit prison. It was not a one-time event.

It would seem to be a large number. But that's at the very end of the 1000 years which I do believe in with Christ being at the helm.

Would you please explain your beliefs regarding the Millennium?

And with Solomon stating that the spirit returns to God. Some believe that means his spirit while others believe it's ours, etc.

In those verses in Ecclesiastes, I understand the word "ruach" to mean "breath" rather than "spirit."

Being resurrected on the "last day" is one that seemingly would suggest soul sleep.

The soul may indeed be unconscious, but the important thing is that the personality is conscious in or with the spirit. SDA's believe the personality is unconscious with the soul.

But I just don't believe Christ would use a parable that wasn't at least based in reality. And then I pair that with the Peter verses and that's where I'm still at.

I agree with you.

 

[Hentenza]

Sorry, I was at work but Christ taught them the gospel so it stands to reason they were given a chance after Christ died and rose again.

Interesting. Can you show where in scripture does it teach that Christ taught those in prison during His three days in the tomb the gospel?

 

[RamiC]

Interesting. Can you show where in scripture does it teach that Christ taught those in prison during His three days in the tomb the gospel?

"18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." 1 Peter 3:18-20 NIV

"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah," 1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV

"18 Christ’s Victory and Descent to the Netherworld, and Christian Baptism.[a] For Christ also suffered for our sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but raised to life in the spirit.

19 In the spirit[b] also he went to preach to the spirits in prison, 20 those who had refused to obey long ago while God waited patiently in the days of Noah during the building of the ark." 1 Peter 3:18-20 NCB

 

[Hentenza]

"18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." 1 Peter 3:18-20 NIV

"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah," 1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV

"18 Christ’s Victory and Descent to the Netherworld, and Christian Baptism.[a] For Christ also suffered for our sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but raised to life in the spirit.

19 In the spirit[b] also he went to preach to the spirits in prison, 20 those who had refused to obey long ago while God waited patiently in the days of Noah during the building of the ark." 1 Peter 3:18-20 NCB

Thanks for posting the verses. The problem with dogmatically define κηρύσσω as the gospel is that the definition has other options as to what it means. There are a variety of hermeneutical theories ranging from the one you posted to proclaiming victory over sin by Christ sacrifice in the cross.

The spirits are those evil ones who died during the time of Noah so this is one of those verses that refutes the theory of soul sleep because the spirits are conscious not asleep.

 

[Andrewn]

The problem with dogmatically define κηρύσσω as the gospel is that the definition has other options as to what it means. There are a variety of hermeneutical theories ranging from the one you posted to proclaiming victory over sin by Christ sacrifice in the cross.

1Pe 4:6 is even clearer:

6 For this reason the gospel was also preached (εὐηγγελίσθη) to those who are now dead, so that, although they might be judged in the flesh according to human standards,they might live in the spirit according to God’s standards.

 

[JulieB67]

It sounds like you believe Christ continues to preach the Gospel in Hades / the spirit prison. It was not a one-time event.

That's the thing, I'm not sure if it wasn't just a one time event, giving those souls a chance after he resurrected. But this certainly tells me he's very fair. So I don't see any lost soul that never had a chance standing at judgment day, I really don't.

Would you please explain your beliefs regarding the Millennium?

I think it's a time of ruling and teaching without any interference from Satan, etc.

 

[RamiC]

Thanks for posting the verses. The problem with dogmatically define κηρύσσω as the gospel is that the definition has other options as to what it means. There are a variety of hermeneutical theories ranging from the one you posted to proclaiming victory over sin by Christ sacrifice in the cross.

I thought that all I posted was three different translations of the Bible on the same verses.

 

[JulieB67]

Interesting. Can you show where in scripture does it teach that Christ taught those in prison during His three days in the tomb the gospel?

These are just following up with the 1st Peter 3 verses-

I Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead." -The living and the dead

I Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

 

[Hentenza]

1Pe 4:6 is even clearer:

6 For this reason the gospel was also preached (εὐηγγελίσθη) to those who are now dead, so that, although they might be judged in the flesh according to human standards,they might live in the spirit according to God’s standards.

Who do you think are those who are now dead?

 

[Hentenza]

I thought that all I posted was three different translations of the Bible on the same verses.

You did but the Greek remains the same but the translated word changed. This is why I mentioned about being dogmatic about just one definition where others exist.