Hell, Darkness and the Pit

DaveDavids · Jun 3, 2018

For most of my life I had heard people talk about these Biblical concepts, and had been led to believe they were one and the same

Hell = the pit / abyss

Satan is in hell, Satan = sin, Hell is where sinners go, and so on and so forth

Let's examine these words using the concordances

αδης hades {hah'-dace} from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11 1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions

I found that most folks tend to skip right over reading where it says:

from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492

So, let's examine the construction of the word, starting with Strong's Greek 1

α a {al'-fah} of Hebrew origin; TDNT - 1:1,*; letter AV - Alpha 4; 4 1) first letter of Greek alphabet 2) Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

When a word in Koine Greek is prefixed with alpha α, it serves as the negative particle

A negative particle serves to tell the reader it means " un " or " not "

So in the case of " hades ", it takes the base word, Strong's Greek 1492

ειδω eido {i-do'} or οιδα oida {oy'-da} a root word; TDNT - 5:116, *; v AV - know 282, cannot tell + 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 16, look 5, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1; 666 1) to see 1a) to perceive with the eyes 1b) to perceive by any of the senses 1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover 1d) to see 1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything 1d2) to pay attention, observe 1d3) to see about something 1d31) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it 1d4) to inspect, examine 1d5) to look at, behold 1e) to experience any state or condition 1f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit 2) to know 2a) to know of anything 2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive 2b1) of any fact 2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning 2b3) to know how, to be skilled in 2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

...and turns " knowing / understanding " into " not knowing / understanding "

ειδω ( knowing / understanding )
α ( not / un )

αδης hades

Now, going by modern English, we know that " not knowing " is called " ignorance "

So I will say:

αδης hades = ignorance ( of the Kingdom / scriptures )

I know most would react with a " pffffffft " here, so I'll use Greek scriptures to back this up

Let's examine " darkness "

σκοτοω skotoo {skot-o'-o}; TDNT - 7:423,1049; v AV - full of darkness 1; 1 1) to darken, cover with darkness 2) metaphorical: to darken or blind the mind

from 4655

σκοτος skotos {skot'-os} from the base of 4639; TDNT - 7:423,1049; n n AV - darkness 32; 32 1) darkness 1a) of night darkness 1b) of darkened eyesight or blindness 2) metaphor - of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties, and the accompanying ungodliness and immorality, together with their consequent misery in hell 2b) persons in whom darkness becomes visible and holds sway

So now I can say:

σκοτοω darkness = ignorance
αδης hell = ignorance ( of the Kingdom )

So far this is all according to the Concordances

Now going by the normal teachings people give:

Hell = the pit

I'll do " the pit " and the Hebrew cognates in the next few posts

To be continued.....

Kevin Snow · Jun 3, 2018

Hey uh, you realize doing word math is not that great because there are a lot of languages where that same protocol in one language won't follow in another language. It's akin to doing the 3,6,9 conspiracy mathematics but those maths won't work in a different base system. The idea is what doesn't change but the words and expressions which cover those ideas don't have a system in which you can derive the idea from it. So what is valuable is the ability to express the ideas.

Der Alte · Jun 3, 2018

DaveDavids said:
For most of my life I had heard people talk about these Biblical concepts, and had been led to believe they were one and the same
Hell = the pit / abyss

Satan is in hell, Satan = sin, Hell is where sinners go, and so on and so forth

Let's examine these words using the concordances

αδης hades {hah'-dace} from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11 1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions

I found that most folks tend to skip right over reading where it says:

from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492

So, let's examine the construction of the word, starting with Strong's Greek 1

α a {al'-fah} of Hebrew origin; TDNT - 1:1,*; letter AV - Alpha 4; 4 1) first letter of Greek alphabet 2) Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

When a word in Koine Greek is prefixed with alpha α, it serves as the negative particle

A negative particle serves to tell the reader it means " un " or " not "

So in the case of " hades ", it takes the base word, Strong's Greek 1492

ειδω eido {i-do'} or οιδα oida {oy'-da} a root word; TDNT - 5:116, *; v AV - know 282, cannot tell + 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 16, look 5, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1; 666 1) to see 1a) to perceive with the eyes 1b) to perceive by any of the senses 1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover 1d) to see 1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything 1d2) to pay attention, observe 1d3) to see about something 1d31) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it 1d4) to inspect, examine 1d5) to look at, behold 1e) to experience any state or condition 1f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit 2) to know 2a) to know of anything 2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive 2b1) of any fact 2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning 2b3) to know how, to be skilled in 2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

...and turns " knowing / understanding " into " not knowing / understanding "

ειδω ( knowing / understanding )
α ( not / un )

αδης hades

Now, going by modern English, we know that " not knowing " is called " ignorance "

So I will say:

αδης hades = ignorance ( of the Kingdom / scriptures )

I know most would react with a " pffffffft " here, so I'll use Greek scriptures to back this up

Let's examine " darkness "

σκοτοω skotoo {skot-o'-o}; TDNT - 7:423,1049; v AV - full of darkness 1; 1 1) to darken, cover with darkness 2) metaphorical: to darken or blind the mind

from 4655

σκοτος skotos {skot'-os} from the base of 4639; TDNT - 7:423,1049; n n AV - darkness 32; 32 1) darkness 1a) of night darkness 1b) of darkened eyesight or blindness 2) metaphor - of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties, and the accompanying ungodliness and immorality, together with their consequent misery in hell 2b) persons in whom darkness becomes visible and holds sway

So now I can say:

σκοτοω darkness = ignorance
αδης hell = ignorance ( of the Kingdom )

So far this is all according to the Concordances

Now going by the normal teachings people give:

Hell = the pit

I'll do " the pit " and the Hebrew cognates in the next few posts

To be continued.....

What you are proposing is known as the lexical fallacy, the "Root Word Fallacy." "assigning the (supposed) original meaning of a word to its usages throughout history;" See "Exegetical Fallacies" by D.A. Carson.
Exegetical Fallacies

DaveDavids · Jun 3, 2018

Well sir, I don't believe in such thing as " word math ", but there's " exegesis "

Also, there's no source for that supposed " 369 " quote from Tesla, it's made up by conspiracy theory fans that echew actually reading Tesla's writings, kind of like how some people read the scriptures and eschew studying the scriptures ( reading =/= studying )

----------------------------

So back to the thread topic

First we'll do " pit / abyss" in Greek

αβυσσος abussos {ab'-us-sos} from 1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of 1037; TDNT - 1:9,2; n f AV - bottomless pit 5, deep 2, bottomless 2; 9 1) bottomless 2) unbounded 3) the abyss 3a) the pit 3b) the immeasurable depth 3c) of Orcus, a very deep gulf or chasm in the lowest parts of the earth used as the common receptacle of the dead and especially as the abode of demons

Once again I will point to the fact it says:

from 1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of 1037

α serves as the negative particle - un / not

Strong's Greek 1037 says:

βυθος buthos {boo-thos'} a variation of 899;; n m AV - deep 1; 1 1) the bottom or depth of the sea 2) the sea itself, the deep sea

Strong's Greek 899 says:

βαθος bathos {bath'-os} from the same as 901; TDNT - 1:517,89; n n AV - depth 5, deep 1, deep + 2596 1, deepness 1, deep thing 1; 9 1) depth, height 1a) of the deep sea 1b) metaphorical 1b1) deep, extreme, poverty 1b2) of the deep things of God

Strong's Greek 901 says:

βαθυς bathus {bath-oos'} from the base of 939;; adj AV - deep 2, very early in the morning + 3722 1; 3 1) deep

Strong's Greek 939 says:

βασις basis {bas'-ece} from baino (to walk);; n f AV - foot (sole of) 1; 1 1) a stepping, walking 2) that with which one steps, the foot

Well, that happens to be the root of the word " Kingdom " in Greek

" Kingdom "

βασιλεια basileia {bas-il-i'-ah} ; TDNT - 1:579,97; n f AV - kingdom (of God) 71, kingdom (of heaven) 32, kingdom (general or evil) 20, (Thy or Thine) kingdom 6, His kingdom 6, the kingdom 5, (My) kingdom 4, misc 18; 162 1) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule 1a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom 1b) of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah 1c) of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom 2) a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king 3) used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah

From Strong's Greek 939

βασις basis {bas'-ece} from baino (to walk);; n f AV - foot (sole of) 1; 1 1) a stepping, walking 2) that with which one steps, the foot

We all know that inheriting the Kingdom is all about your walk with God

Now we'll do " pit " in Hebrew

בור bowr {bore} from 0952 (in the sense of 0877); TWOT - 194e; n m AV - pit 42, cistern 4, dungeon 11, well 9, dungeon + 01004 2, fountain 1; 69 1) pit, well, cistern

Strong's Hebrew 952 says:

בור buwr {boor} a primitive root; TWOT - 221; v AV - declare 1; 1 1) (Qal) 1a) to make clear, clear up, explain, prove 1b) (CLBL) to bore into 1c) (TWOT) to declare

Strong's Hebrew 877 says:

באר bo'r {bore} from 0874; TWOT - 194d; n m AV - cistern 2; 2 1) cistern, pit, well

Strong's Hebrew 874 says

באר ba'ar {baw-ar'} a primitive root; TWOT - 194; v AV - plain 1, plainly 1, declare 1; 3 1) (Piel) 1a) to make plain, distinct 1b) to make clear 1c) to declare 1d) letters on a tablet

When you make clear, something, especially where the scriptures are concerned, " it's called exegesis "

Now, the reason that Hebrew etymology of the word " pit " ( to make clear ) presents the opposite meaning of " hades " ( not knowing / ignorance ) is that this " being in the pit / abyss " is a known priestly tradition in Mesopotamia

I'll cover this in addition to the Hebrew " darkness " in the next post

DaveDavids · Jun 3, 2018

Der Alter said:
What you are proposing is known as the lexical fallacy, the "Root Word Fallacy." "assigning the (supposed) original meaning of a word to its usages throughout history;" See "Exegetical Fallacies" by D.A. Carson.
Exegetical Fallacies

No, what I am proposing is backed up by years of academic resources, and I will post plenty for you on this thread

Your fallacy, in making this assumption about my improper exegesis of priestly texts is unfortunately completely obliterated by a rather strict tradition maintained by initiate High Priests, but I'll get to that eventually

SkyWriting · Jun 3, 2018

DaveDavids said:
For most of my life I had heard people talk about these Biblical concepts, and had been led to believe they were one and the same

Hell = the pit / abyss

Satan is in hell, Satan = sin, Hell is where sinners go, and so on and so forth.

Close enough for me.

Der Alte · Jun 3, 2018

DaveDavids said:
begin quote

No, what I am proposing is backed up by years of academic resources, and I will post plenty for you on this thread
Your fallacy, in making this assumption about my improper exegesis of priestly texts is unfortunately completely obliterated by a rather strict tradition maintained by initiate High Priests, but I'll get to that eventually

end quote

The post I quoted and responded to did not have any "academic resources" "initiate High priests" etc. Only fallacies. You might want to review the book I linked to.

DaveDavids · Jun 3, 2018

First " hell " in Hebrew

שאול she'owl {sheh-ole'} or שאל sheol {sheh-ole'}; TWOT - 2303c; n f AV - grave 31, hell 31, pit 3; 65 1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit 1a) the underworld 1b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead 1b1) place of no return 1b2) without praise of God 1b3) wicked sent there for punishment 1b4) righteous not abandoned to it 1b5) of the place of exile (fig) 1b6) of extreme degradation in sin

from 07592

שאל sha'al {shaw-al'} or שאל sha'el {shaw-ale'} a primitive root; TWOT - 2303; v AV - ask 94, enquire 22, desire 9, require 7, borrow 6, salute 4, demand 4, lent 4, request 3, earnestly 2, beg 2, misc 16; 173 1) to ask, enquire, borrow, beg 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to ask, ask for 1a2) to ask (as a favour), borrow 1a3) to enquire, enquire of 1a4) to enquire of, consult (of deity, oracle) 1a5) to seek 1b) (Niphal) to ask for oneself, ask leave of absence 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to enquire, enquire carefully 1c2) to beg, practise beggary 1d) (Hiphil) 1d1) to be given on request 1d2) to grant, make over to, let (one) ask (successfully) or give or lend on request (then) grant or make over to

I remind you that conventional teachings maintain the antichrist is " granted power " from " Satan " who is " in hell "

Now, " darkness " in Hebrew

חשך choshek{kho-shek'}; TWOT - 769a; n m AV - darkness 70, dark 7, obscurity 2, night 1; 80 1) darkness, obscurity 1a) darkness 1b) secret place

from Strong's Hebrew 02821

חשך chashak {khaw-shak'} a primitive root; TWOT - 769; v AV - darken 9, dark 5, blacker 1, darkness 1, dim 1, hideth 1, variant 1; 19 1) to be or become dark, grow dim, be darkened, be black, be hidden 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to be or grow dark 1a2) to have a dark colour 1a3) to grow dim 1b) (Hiphil) 1b1) to make dark, cause to be dark 1b2) to hide, conceal 1b3) to obscure, confuse (fig.)

--------------------------------

This leaves us so far with:

Greek:

σκοτοω - darkness = ignorance
αδης - hell = ignorance ( of the Kingdom )
αβυσσος - pit - etymology => " deep things of God " / Same root as " kingdom "

Hebrew:

שאול - hell - etymology => " to ask / grant "
בור - pit - etymology => " to make clear / text "
חשך - darkness - etymology => confuse / hide / conceal / obscure

Already by simple examination of word construction in both Hebrew and Greek we can see classical rabbinical tradition of

Point / counterpoint
Antithetical concepts

Rabbis always taught with this point / counterpoint method and it is from earlier Mesopotamian priestly traditions ( we can cover all that and more if you guys like

DaveDavids · Jun 3, 2018

Der Alter said:
No, what I am proposing is backed up by years of academic resources, and I will post plenty for you on this thread
Your fallacy, in making this assumption about my improper exegesis of priestly texts is unfortunately completely obliterated by a rather strict tradition maintained by initiate High Priests, but I'll get to that eventually
The post I quoted and responded to did not have any "academic resources" "initiate High priests" etc. Only fallacies. You might want to review the book I linked to.

I will suggest you start here

Akkadian Commentaries and Early Hebrew Exegesis

DaveDavids · Jun 3, 2018

here's an excerpt from Yale's site I just linked you to

Authority

The ancient Mesopotamian exegetical and religious tradition distinguished between three levels of textual authority, according to the perceived authorship of a given text. The highest level of authority was divine, possessed by texts attributed to the gods themselves: cultic and liturgical texts, divinatory texts, and a few Sumerian myths. The authority of other texts usually resulted from their attribution to mythological or historical scholars. The majority of Akkadian commentaries address texts that possessed divine authority, while the commentaries themselves have (oral) scholarly authority (šūt pî, literally: “those of the mouth”; ša pī ummâni, literally: “that of the mouth of a scholar”). This scholarly authority ultimately had its origins in the divine realm too: divine knowledge was revealed to the mythological sages in primordial times, and was then transmitted, according to ancient Mesopotamian perception, from generation to generation by scholars.

In the rabbinic world as well, especially in halakhic Midrash, the authority of the base text, the Torah, was regarded as divine. In the case of Qumran, especially in the Pesharim literature, the base text that is the subject of exegesis is usually considered to be a divine message delivered through a prophet. Thus most Pesharim comment on passages from the biblical prophetic books or the Psalms, which were believed to have been written by David under divine inspiration. And like the Mesopotamian commentaries, rabbinic exegesis of the Torah possessed scholarly authority. In the worldview of rabbinic literature, as in Mesopotamia, oral scholarly lore had been transmitted from generation to generation from the time of the revelation of the Scriptures themselves.

---------------------

If you wanted to debate how " divinity " was determined or written about in classical Mesopotamian literature, you'd have to at least be able to post the simple explanation how it was presented in text

I know what it is because I've extensively studied the topics, so if you can't at least post what it is, I wouldn't consider debating with you

It's very basic information that would be known to beginning students of Mesopotamian literature / history / exegesis

dreadnought · Jun 3, 2018

DaveDavids said:
For most of my life I had heard people talk about these Biblical concepts, and had been led to believe they were one and the same

Hell = the pit / abyss

Satan is in hell, Satan = sin, Hell is where sinners go, and so on and so forth

Let's examine these words using the concordances

αδης hades {hah'-dace} from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11 1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions

I found that most folks tend to skip right over reading where it says:

from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492

So, let's examine the construction of the word, starting with Strong's Greek 1

α a {al'-fah} of Hebrew origin; TDNT - 1:1,*; letter AV - Alpha 4; 4 1) first letter of Greek alphabet 2) Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end

When a word in Koine Greek is prefixed with alpha α, it serves as the negative particle

A negative particle serves to tell the reader it means " un " or " not "

So in the case of " hades ", it takes the base word, Strong's Greek 1492

ειδω eido {i-do'} or οιδα oida {oy'-da} a root word; TDNT - 5:116, *; v AV - know 282, cannot tell + 3756 8, know how 7, wist 6, misc 19, see 314, behold 16, look 5, perceive 5, vr see 3, vr know 1; 666 1) to see 1a) to perceive with the eyes 1b) to perceive by any of the senses 1c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover 1d) to see 1d1) i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything 1d2) to pay attention, observe 1d3) to see about something 1d31) i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it 1d4) to inspect, examine 1d5) to look at, behold 1e) to experience any state or condition 1f) to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit 2) to know 2a) to know of anything 2b) to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive 2b1) of any fact 2b2) the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning 2b3) to know how, to be skilled in 2c) to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

...and turns " knowing / understanding " into " not knowing / understanding "

ειδω ( knowing / understanding )
α ( not / un )

αδης hades

Now, going by modern English, we know that " not knowing " is called " ignorance "

So I will say:

αδης hades = ignorance ( of the Kingdom / scriptures )

I know most would react with a " pffffffft " here, so I'll use Greek scriptures to back this up

Let's examine " darkness "

σκοτοω skotoo {skot-o'-o}; TDNT - 7:423,1049; v AV - full of darkness 1; 1 1) to darken, cover with darkness 2) metaphorical: to darken or blind the mind

from 4655

σκοτος skotos {skot'-os} from the base of 4639; TDNT - 7:423,1049; n n AV - darkness 32; 32 1) darkness 1a) of night darkness 1b) of darkened eyesight or blindness 2) metaphor - of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties, and the accompanying ungodliness and immorality, together with their consequent misery in hell 2b) persons in whom darkness becomes visible and holds sway

So now I can say:

σκοτοω darkness = ignorance
αδης hell = ignorance ( of the Kingdom )

So far this is all according to the Concordances

Now going by the normal teachings people give:

Hell = the pit

I'll do " the pit " and the Hebrew cognates in the next few posts

To be continued.....

I think one can save a lot of time by realizing that when we sin, our life changes. It is subtle - we aren't aware of it, but we've lost the life the Lord gave us and have entered another. I believe that is hell, the pit, the lake of fire, etc.

Der Alte · Jun 3, 2018

DaveDavids said:
begin quote

here's an excerpt from Yale's site I just linked you to
Authority
The ancient Mesopotamian exegetical and religious tradition distinguished between three levels of textual authority, according to the perceived authorship of a given text. The highest level of authority was divine, possessed by texts attributed to the gods themselves: cultic and liturgical texts, divinatory texts, and a few Sumerian myths. The authority of other texts usually resulted from their attribution to mythological or historical scholars. The majority of Akkadian commentaries address texts that possessed divine authority, while the commentaries themselves have (oral) scholarly authority (šūt pî, literally: “those of the mouth”; ša pī ummâni, literally: “that of the mouth of a scholar”). This scholarly authority ultimately had its origins in the divine realm too: divine knowledge was revealed to the mythological sages in primordial times, and was then transmitted, according to ancient Mesopotamian perception, from generation to generation by scholars.
In the rabbinic world as well, especially in halakhic Midrash, the authority of the base text, the Torah, was regarded as divine. In the case of Qumran, especially in the Pesharim literature, the base text that is the subject of exegesis is usually considered to be a divine message delivered through a prophet. Thus most Pesharim comment on passages from the biblical prophetic books or the Psalms, which were believed to have been written by David under divine inspiration. And like the Mesopotamian commentaries, rabbinic exegesis of the Torah possessed scholarly authority. In the worldview of rabbinic literature, as in Mesopotamia, oral scholarly lore had been transmitted from generation to generation from the time of the revelation of the Scriptures themselves.
---------------------
If you wanted to debate how " divinity " was determined or written about in classical Mesopotamian literature, you'd have to at least be able to post the simple explanation how it was presented in text
I know what it is because I've extensively studied the topics, so if you can't at least post what it is, I wouldn't consider debating with you
It's very basic information that would be known to beginning students of Mesopotamian literature / history / exegesis

end quote

All mildly interesting but irrelevant. Similarity does not prove derivation. Do you happen to have Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew Lexicon and a good Hebrew grammar? FYI Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions. I would not rely too heavily on it.

DaveDavids · Jun 6, 2018

So, I asked a very simple question about divinity in Mesopotamian texts, something a first year student of the topics would know

It went unanswered

This is the correct answer

DaveDavids · Jun 6, 2018

dreadnought said:
I think one can save a lot of time by realizing that when we sin, our life changes. It is subtle - we aren't aware of it, but we've lost the life the Lord gave us and have entered another. I believe that is hell, the pit, the lake of fire, etc.

Hey, that's great. I always encourage people to stick to the truths they prefer and would never want to try to dissuade you from believing what you like

I personally couldn't agree with you about your beliefs, but I choose to base my decision on rigorous study

DaveDavids · Jun 6, 2018

People usually associate Jesus with " healing the blind ", like literally healing people who were blind from birth

Let's examine the issue that the NT says the " god of this world " ( Satan ) is who does a lot the " blinding " while Christ is who " unblinds "

Satan - makes " blind "
Jesus - makes you " see "

Let's take a look at four verses and examine the phrasing and word roots

John 12:40

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

2 Corinthians 3:14

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1 John 2:11

But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

Now we'll look to the concordance:

" blinded "

τυφλοω tuphloo {toof-lo'-o} TDNT - 8:270,1196; v AV - blind 3; 3 1) to blind, make blind 2) in the NT metaphors - to blunt the mental discernment, darken the mind

from 5185

τυφλος tuphlos {toof-los'}; TDNT - 8:270,1196; adj AV - blind 44, blind man 9; 53 1) blind 2) mentally blind

from 5187

τυφοω (τυφοομαι) tuphoo {toof-o'-o};; v AV - be proud 1, be lifted up with pride 1, highminded 1; 3 1) to raise a smoke, to wrap in a mist 1a) metaph. 1a1) to make proud, puff up with pride, render insolent 1a2) to be puffed up with haughtiness or pride 2) to blind with pride or conceit, to render foolish or stupid 2a) beclouded, cause an issue to become obscure or muddled, confuse

from a derivative of 5188

τυφω tupho {too'-fo} apparently a primary verb;; v AV - smoke 1; 1 1) to cause or emit smoke, raise a smoke 2) to smoke

This crucial verse demands some attention:

1 John 2:11

But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

The concordance says:

" darkness "

σκοτια skotia {skot-ee'-ah}; TDNT - 7:423,1049; n f AV - darkness 14, dark 2; 16 1) darkness 2) the darkness due to want of light 3) metaphor- used of ignorance of divine things

from 4655

σκοτος skotos {skot'-os}; TDNT - 7:423,1049; n n AV - darkness 32; 32 1) darkness 1a) of night darkness 1b) of darkened eyesight or blindness 2) metaphor- of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties

from the base of 4639

σκια skia {skee'-ah} apparently a primary word; TDNT - 7:394,1044; n f AV - shadow 7; 7 1) shadow 1a) shade caused by the interception of light 1b) an image cast by an object and representing the form of that object 1c) a sketch, outline, adumbration

This is where the " darkness " of the " beast's kingdom " is drawn from in Revelation Greek

σκοτοω skotoo {skot-o'-o} from 4655; TDNT - 7:423,1049; v AV - full of darkness 1; 1 1) to darken, cover with darkness 2) metaphor- to darken or blind the mind

Revelation 16:10

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

" blinded "

τυφλοω tuphloo - to blunt the mental discernment, darken the mind
τυφλος tuphlos - mentally blind

" darkness "

σκοτια skotia - - used of ignorance of divine things
σκοτος skotos - of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties

Nothing strange here at all, just proper exegesis

dreadnought · Jun 6, 2018

DaveDavids said:
Hey, that's great. I always encourage people to stick to the truths they prefer and would never want to try to dissuade you from believing what you like

I personally couldn't agree with you about your beliefs, but I choose to base my decision on rigorous study

The Bible and experience are two learning tools.

DaveDavids · Jun 7, 2018

Now we'll move to some pre-Biblical literature and then I'll go back to exegesis of Hebrew and Greek scriptures

I guess the best place to start is the title the priest of Sin ( The moon ) known as Sin-leqi-unninni gives himself when he records the so-called " Gilgamesh " text

His name is listed in the text itself, which was unorthodox for works written in cuneiform. His version is known by its incipit, or first line:

"Sha naqba īmuru / amāru "

"He who saw the deep "

or

"The one who saw the Abyss"

( amāru; )

Sumerian - igi bar [LOOK AT] (1x: Lagash II) wr. igi bar "to look at"

Akkadian amāru; barû; naplusu

Sumerian -igi duh [SEE] (4x: Old Babylonian) wr. igi duh "to see"

Akkadian amāru; naplusu; naţālu

Sumerian -igi sig [SEE] (8x: Old Babylonian) wr. igi sig10 "to see"

Akkadian amāru; naplusu

Sumerian - u dug [ADMIRE] (92x: Old Babylonian) wr. u6 dug4 "to admire; to regard, observe"

Akkadian amāru; barû

Referring to the initiate High Priest knowing the mysteries, and only him, as amāru is taken to mean " hidden or secret knowledge "

" hidden / secret " knowledge of scriptures is covered under classical Hebrew exegesis as " sod pardes "

Sod (סוֹד‬) (pronounced with a long O as in 'soda') — "secret" ("mystery") or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

In Hebrew, the word prophet is from:

נביא nabiy' {naw-bee'} ; TWOT - 1277a; n m AV - prophet 312, prophecy 1, them that prophesy 1, prophet + 0376 1, variant 1; 316 1) spokesman, speaker, prophet 1a) prophet 1b) false prophet 1c) heathen prophet

from 5012

נבא naba' {naw-baw'} a primitive root; TWOT - 1277; v AV - prophesy 111, prophesying 2, prophet 2; 115 1) to prophesy 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to prophesy 1a1a) under influence of divine spirit 1a1b) of false prophets 1b) (Hithpael) 1b1) to prophesy 1b1a) under influence of divine spirit 1b1b) of false prophets

" Under influence of divine spirit " means " ruach hakodesh " ( the Holy Spirit that indwelt prophets )

Now we turn to the Sumero-Akkadian cognate:

nagbu

"Sha naqba īmuru"

"He who saw the deep "

or

"The one who saw the Abyss"

נביא nabiy' - prophet
נבא naba' - prophet
nagbu [WATER] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. nag-bu "waters; sources"

I'd hope nobody would claim Jesus is not the " living water " or not a prophet who saw the abyss, that would be attempting to claim that priestly traditions have nothing to do with Christ

dreadnought · Jun 7, 2018

DaveDavids said:
Now we'll move to some pre-Biblical literature and then I'll go back to exegesis of Hebrew and Greek scriptures

I guess the best place to start is the title the priest of Sin ( The moon ) known as Sin-leqi-unninni gives himself when he records the so-called " Gilgamesh " text

His name is listed in the text itself, which was unorthodox for works written in cuneiform. His version is known by its incipit, or first line:

"Sha naqba īmuru / amāru "

"He who saw the deep "

or

"The one who saw the Abyss"

( amāru; )

Sumerian - igi bar [LOOK AT] (1x: Lagash II) wr. igi bar "to look at"

Akkadian amāru; barû; naplusu

Sumerian -igi duh [SEE] (4x: Old Babylonian) wr. igi duh "to see"

Akkadian amāru; naplusu; naţālu

Sumerian -igi sig [SEE] (8x: Old Babylonian) wr. igi sig10 "to see"

Akkadian amāru; naplusu

Sumerian - u dug [ADMIRE] (92x: Old Babylonian) wr. u6 dug4 "to admire; to regard, observe"

Akkadian amāru; barû

Referring to the initiate High Priest knowing the mysteries, and only him, as amāru is taken to mean " hidden or secret knowledge "

" hidden / secret " knowledge of scriptures is covered under classical Hebrew exegesis as " sod pardes "

Sod (סוֹד‬) (pronounced with a long O as in 'soda') — "secret" ("mystery") or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

In Hebrew, the word prophet is from:

נביא nabiy' {naw-bee'} ; TWOT - 1277a; n m AV - prophet 312, prophecy 1, them that prophesy 1, prophet + 0376 1, variant 1; 316 1) spokesman, speaker, prophet 1a) prophet 1b) false prophet 1c) heathen prophet

from 5012

נבא naba' {naw-baw'} a primitive root; TWOT - 1277; v AV - prophesy 111, prophesying 2, prophet 2; 115 1) to prophesy 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to prophesy 1a1a) under influence of divine spirit 1a1b) of false prophets 1b) (Hithpael) 1b1) to prophesy 1b1a) under influence of divine spirit 1b1b) of false prophets

" Under influence of divine spirit " means " ruach hakodesh " ( the Holy Spirit that indwelt prophets )

Now we turn to the Sumero-Akkadian cognate:

nagbu

"Sha naqba īmuru"

"He who saw the deep "

or

"The one who saw the Abyss"

נביא nabiy' - prophet
נבא naba' - prophet
nagbu [WATER] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. nag-bu "waters; sources"

I'd hope nobody would claim Jesus is not the " living water " or not a prophet who saw the abyss, that would be attempting to claim that priestly traditions have nothing to do with Christ

What could have predated the creation of the world?

DaveDavids · Jun 8, 2018

Idk, I personally don't think the Bible records a literal account of " creation " like many do, so I have no answer for this purely hypothetical question

-------------------------

So getting back to priestly traditions, I'll start with this verse:

Rev 9:1

" And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit "

αστηρ aster {as-tare'} ; TDNT - 1:503,86; n m AV - star 24; 24 1) a star

The first thing I will point out is the rather obvious use of classical Mesopotamian literary conventions

Every " divine " king / ruler / priest/ess had their names written with a symbol that signified that they were " gods on earth ", ie, had been deified through some " sacred marriage " ritual where they " married " the god they represented on earth

In cuneiform texts the symbol is written with a name, but not pronounced aloud

This is called a " determinant " ,and is rather common in older languages, but the best modern corollary I could think of is the trademark symbol™

The " trademark " of a deified ruler is a Sumerian ideogram for a " sky / star "

Hence the symbol:

( an )

As per wiki:

Dingir (, usually transliterated DIĜIR, Sumerian pronunciation: [tiŋiɾ]) is a Sumerian word for "god." Its cuneiform sign is most commonly employed as the determinative for religious names and related concepts, in which case it is not pronounced and is conventionally transliterated as a superscript "D" as in e.g. D Inanna.

The cuneiform sign by itself was originally an ideogram for the Sumerian word an ("sky" or "heaven"); its use was then extended to a logogram for the word diĝir ("god" or goddess) and the supreme deity of the Sumerian pantheon An, and a phonogram for the syllable /an/.

Akkadian took over all these uses and added to them a logographic reading for the native ilum and from that a syllabic reading of /il/. In Hittite orthography, the syllabic value of the sign was again only an.

The concept of "divinity" in Sumerian is closely associated with the heavens, as is evident from the fact that the cuneiform sign doubles as the ideogram for "sky", and that its original shape is the picture of a star. The original association of "divinity" is thus with "bright" or "shining" hierophanies in the sky. A possible loan relation of Sumerian dingir with Turkic Tengri "sky, sky god" has been suggested

( end wiki )

an [SKY] (1598x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. an"sky, heaven; upper; crown (of a tree)" Akkadian šamû

The first use of this convention using the Dingir dates to the grandson of Sargon of Akkad:

Naram-Sin

Naram-Sin is the first known king to have been claimed to be a god on earth, as per the literature we've discovered

However, even more interesting is that it is Naram-Sin who reformed the entire system of measurements in Mesopotamia based on a theoretical cuboid of water, the Royal gur

It is this system of units he institutes in Mesopotamia that the Bible draws units from

~ Shekels, for example

A shekel came to be associated with the name of a coin, but it was actually a measure of

~ area
~ mass
~ volume

And was used in water clocks

I point the reader to my last post:

נביא nabiy' - prophet
נבא naba' - prophet
nagbu [WATER] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. nag-bu "waters; sources"

" star in the pit " has a much deeper history than most are aware of

dreadnought · Jun 9, 2018

DaveDavids said:
Idk, I personally don't think the Bible records a literal account of " creation " like many do, so I have no answer for this purely hypothetical question

-------------------------

So getting back to priestly traditions, I'll start with this verse:

Rev 9:1

" And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit "

αστηρ aster {as-tare'} ; TDNT - 1:503,86; n m AV - star 24; 24 1) a star

The first thing I will point out is the rather obvious use of classical Mesopotamian literary conventions

Every " divine " king / ruler / priest/ess had their names written with a symbol that signified that they were " gods on earth ", ie, had been deified through some " sacred marriage " ritual where they " married " the god they represented on earth

In cuneiform texts the symbol is written with a name, but not pronounced aloud

This is called a " determinant " ,and is rather common in older languages, but the best modern corollary I could think of is the trademark symbol™

The " trademark " of a deified ruler is a Sumerian ideogram for a " sky / star "

Hence the symbol:

( an )

As per wiki:

Dingir (, usually transliterated DIĜIR, Sumerian pronunciation: [tiŋiɾ]) is a Sumerian word for "god." Its cuneiform sign is most commonly employed as the determinative for religious names and related concepts, in which case it is not pronounced and is conventionally transliterated as a superscript "D" as in e.g. D Inanna.

The cuneiform sign by itself was originally an ideogram for the Sumerian word an ("sky" or "heaven"); its use was then extended to a logogram for the word diĝir ("god" or goddess) and the supreme deity of the Sumerian pantheon An, and a phonogram for the syllable /an/.

Akkadian took over all these uses and added to them a logographic reading for the native ilum and from that a syllabic reading of /il/. In Hittite orthography, the syllabic value of the sign was again only an.

The concept of "divinity" in Sumerian is closely associated with the heavens, as is evident from the fact that the cuneiform sign doubles as the ideogram for "sky", and that its original shape is the picture of a star. The original association of "divinity" is thus with "bright" or "shining" hierophanies in the sky. A possible loan relation of Sumerian dingir with Turkic Tengri "sky, sky god" has been suggested

( end wiki )

an [SKY] (1598x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. an"sky, heaven; upper; crown (of a tree)" Akkadian šamû

The first use of this convention using the Dingir dates to the grandson of Sargon of Akkad:

Naram-Sin

Naram-Sin is the first known king to have been claimed to be a god on earth, as per the literature we've discovered

However, even more interesting is that it is Naram-Sin who reformed the entire system of measurements in Mesopotamia based on a theoretical cuboid of water, the Royal gur

It is this system of units he institutes in Mesopotamia that the Bible draws units from

~ Shekels, for example

A shekel came to be associated with the name of a coin, but it was actually a measure of

~ area
~ mass
~ volume

And was used in water clocks

I point the reader to my last post:

נביא nabiy' - prophet
נבא naba' - prophet
nagbu [WATER] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. nag-bu "waters; sources"

" star in the pit " has a much deeper history than most are aware of

I think it is possible there is symbolism in the Bible's account of creation. I don't think it's a matter of major importance. What seems important to me is that the Lord, through his commandments, lays down a path to heaven.

Hell, Darkness and the Pit

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Lip service isn't really service.

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Lip service isn't really service.

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Lip service isn't really service.

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Lip service isn't really service.

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