Hell as a choice?

MichaelNZ · Jan 15, 2008

Someone stated on the "God Loving" thread that hell is a choice that people make in their lives. To me, this doesn't seem true. No-one in their right minds would choose to go to hell (who would want eternal torment?). But people choose not to follow a religion or choose not to follow Jesus Christ. According to the Bible, no-one comes to the Father except through Jesus. So if someone chooses not to follow Jesus, then they are in effect damning themselves to eternity in hell. But they don't know this. They think it's just religion.

If Orthodoxy is the only true way to God, and those outside of it will go to hell, then why doesn't God make it 100% clear that Orthodoxy is the only way? Why doesn't He give supernatural proof? For example, weeping icons in every church, physical transformation of the bread and wine into Christ's Body and Blood, apparitions of the Virgin Mary to any pious Orthodox who asks for it, or God speaking to everyone who enters an Orthodox Church. And these miracles would need to be able to be tested by science and proven not to be natural occurances but really supernatural signs from God. Why doesn't God create a miracle like the 1967 Zeitoun apparition, but with much more proof so that everyone will be Orthodox? And if people choose not to be Orthodox, then why can't God appear in His full glory in front of them and warn them of their bad decision?

To me it just seems unfair that choosing not to follow Jesus or religion = going to hell. If people consciously say "I don't want to go to hell", then a loving God wouldn't send them there, even if they didn't follow Jesus.

And, in your opinion, if Orthodoxy is the only true way, then where did the other religions come from?

ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs · Jan 15, 2008

But we don't say that everyone who isn't Orthodox (or even Christian) is going to hell. We dare not say it because it's not our place. Christ is not a device through which one obtains salvation by meeting certain criteria. He is a Person who decides who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.

It would not surprise me at all to know that Mohandas Gandhi was in heaven. He certainly demonstrated more humility and love than most Christians I know. It's my understanding that he greatly admired Christ but wouldn't become Christian because most of the Christians he knew didn't actually follow Christ. I would seriously hate to think that someone like Gandhi stumbled and rejected Christ because of my sinfulness.

As far as hell being a choice, it's not as simple as you propose. It's not just a matter of choosing to be a Christian or not. What of all the people who never heard the Gospel and yet strove to live righteous lives? They are in the hands of a just and merciful God.

Your question would be more appropriately posed in one of the other congregational forums because posing it to Orthodox is kind of straw-mannish. I don't say that as a critique of you or your question, just to say that the apparent disparity you seem to be questioning doesn't exist in Orthodoxy.

As to why God doesn't wow everyone with signs and wonders, I can't say with any authority. I figure it might have something to do with wanting genuine faith from His followers. If I were a king, I'd much rather my subjects follow me because they loved me than because I had a big army and wasn't afraid to use it.

Silentchapel · Jan 15, 2008

Actually, a priest friend of mine explained why we still die even if we take Communion. It is closely related to why God doesn't manifest 'miracles on demand.'

Imagine that your life expectancy increases as you take Holy Communion and there is no upper limit.
So, devout Christians would soon be practically immortal.
So, it would be obvious and apparent that religion brings immortality.
That would be a fact.
And therefore, religion wouldn't be a matter of faith but of common sense.
People would start converting en masse, not out of love for God and for truth but out of fear of death.
So, we would have an entire immortal world, where a lot of people wouldn't be there in more difficult circumstances.
And that would turn to hell, being surrounded by people who don't love God or people around them.

In Matthew 25, Christ never asks: "Did you fast" or "Were you an Orthodox Christian in this and that canonical Church" - no - He asks if we showed love to others.

Lukaris · Jan 15, 2008

Plus do not most of the Beatitudes apply to Christian & non Christians in what God considers blessed? But when a Christian is convicted with the Gospel all speculations fade & one must rise to the challenge & try to witness (in many varying degrees) so great a salvation offered by our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.

nutroll · Jan 15, 2008

In cooking, there is a process called tempering. It is a way of acclimating a delicate ingredient like eggs to something that would ruin it. If you put eggs directly into a boiling hot liquid, they will curdle and it will ruin the recipe. So the hot liquid must be added to the eggs slowly in small amounts so that they are prepared to be added to the hot liquid. Once they are tempered, they can be added without worrying that they will curdle. This same principle applies to our relationship to God. We are unprepared to be in God's presence. We are unprepared because we are slaves to the evil in this world and strangers to God. If such a person were to die, how could they be in God's presence and be prepared enough to withstand it? So in this life we are tempered. We spend time with God in His Kingdom in small amounts at first. We gradually spend more time and are more intensely introduced to God's presence. When we die we are prepared to be with God without it destroying us.

I know that Orthodoxy is true. I don't need constant, blatant miracles and theophanies to prove it to me. And yet, I still do not seek God with my whole heart. If God were to physically manifest in front of me, I would still have to struggle with the same temptations that I struggle with now. I would still be a sinner, and would fall short of what God asks of me. If God started to do this for other people outside of the Church, they would face the same struggles and temptations too, only now their judgment would be based on their awareness. God is merciful in not revealing the truth to those who are not prepared to hear it. For by hearing it, they bear the same responsibility that I have which is to live a life in Christ and bearing one's own cross.

Monica child of God 1 · Jan 15, 2008

Picking up on nutrolls' analogy, the same tempering process happens when someone chooses Hell. It is a matter of choosing self over God in large and small ways over the course of ones' life. It begins quite innocuously: "I'll sleep for an extra 30 minutes instead of saying my morning prayers," "It is only the weekly Wednesday fast. I'll just have a burger instead of a Lenten meal," or "Sure, I could send $100 from my paycheck to the local homeless shelter, but I really, really want that new sweater." Now at face value none of these are horrible sins. We can go to confession with sincere contrition, vow to amend our ways with God's grace, receive absolution and take Holy Communion. But if we commit these "little" sins so regularly that we lose our sensitivity to them, we can then lose our sensitivity to other more grievous sin. Perhaps we go "too far" with our boyfriend or girlfriend. Or we don't turn off that titillating movie. Or we choose not to forgive or ask forgiveness when we know full well that it is the righteous thing to do. Before long we are so hardened to sin that nothing moves us much at all. We may even continue to stand at Liturgy every week though in truth our hearts are far from God.

Do you see how day by day we can choose what is most comfortable, convenient or pleasurable? And that is exactly what choosing Hell is. It is choosing self over Love.

"The safest way to Hell is the gradual one--the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts...Murder is no better than cards if cards can do the trick." --C.S. Lewis, Screwtape Letters

I have no idea how God will judge people who adhere to other religions. Scripture does give us a clue

"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." --Luke 12

God is a just Judge. He knows the hearts of all of his creatures and will not withhold mercy from any who deserve it and are humble enough to receive it.

M.

fuerein · Jan 15, 2008

Monica said:
"I'll sleep for an extra 30 minutes instead of saying my morning prayers,"

I hate that one. Rears its ugly head every morning.

Montalban · Jan 15, 2008

MichaelArchangelos said:
Someone stated on the "God Loving" thread that hell is a choice that people make in their lives. To me, this doesn't seem true. No-one in their right minds would choose to go to hell (who would want eternal torment?). But people choose not to follow a religion or choose not to follow Jesus Christ. According to the Bible, no-one comes to the Father except through Jesus. So if someone chooses not to follow Jesus, then they are in effect damning themselves to eternity in hell. But they don't know this. They think it's just religion.

If Orthodoxy is the only true way to God, and those outside of it will go to hell, then why doesn't God make it 100% clear that Orthodoxy is the only way? Why doesn't He give supernatural proof? For example, weeping icons in every church, physical transformation of the bread and wine into Christ's Body and Blood, apparitions of the Virgin Mary to any pious Orthodox who asks for it, or God speaking to everyone who enters an Orthodox Church. And these miracles would need to be able to be tested by science and proven not to be natural occurances but really supernatural signs from God. Why doesn't God create a miracle like the 1967 Zeitoun apparition, but with much more proof so that everyone will be Orthodox? And if people choose not to be Orthodox, then why can't God appear in His full glory in front of them and warn them of their bad decision?

To me it just seems unfair that choosing not to follow Jesus or religion = going to hell. If people consciously say "I don't want to go to hell", then a loving God wouldn't send them there, even if they didn't follow Jesus.

And, in your opinion, if Orthodoxy is the only true way, then where did the other religions come from?

Are you saying that felons choose jail?

Hoankan · Jan 15, 2008

Some actually do choose to go back to jail. They don't know anything but or they are completely acclimated to the prison life and they cannot handle the outside world. I suggest you watch the Shawshank Redemption. While the characters aren't real, the old prison guy released is quite accurate.

Montalban · Jan 16, 2008

Hoankan said:
Some actually do choose to go back to jail. They don't know anything but or they are completely acclimated to the prison life and they cannot handle the outside world. I suggest you watch the Shawshank Redemption. While the characters aren't real, the old prison guy released is quite accurate.

Voila!
And people choose hell.

I've seen and got that film. Great film, though long.

ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs · Jan 16, 2008

My first cousin, who spent quite a bit of time in prison, told me about people who became "institutionalized" and couldn't function without the strict structure of prison. He knew one guy who, when released, broke into a store, took the money then sat down outside and waited for the police. He did it so he could go back inside.

WarriorAngel · Jan 16, 2008

Montalban said:
Are you saying that felons choose jail?

Do you think they don't?

Seriously, if everything is given to you to behave or act..and you ignore it and dismiss the laws whether Divine or secular, you are going to pay the prce, and it shouldnt come as a surprise given that all the laws are clearly laid out for you.

Whether you accept them or refuse them all comes down to your own choice.

Xpycoctomos · Jan 16, 2008

To the OP:
Ditto what a lot of other people have said.

Also for ALLEGORICAL story to add to your understanding, read CS Lewis' "Great Divorce". Excellent read and very insightful, I think.

Xpy

Xpycoctomos · Jan 16, 2008

In cooking, there is a process called tempering. It is a way of acclimating a delicate ingredient like eggs to something that would ruin it. If you put eggs directly into a boiling hot liquid, they will curdle and it will ruin the recipe. So the hot liquid must be added to the eggs slowly in small amounts so that they are prepared to be added to the hot liquid. Once they are tempered, they can be added without worrying that they will curdle. This same principle applies to our relationship to God. We are unprepared to be in God's presence. We are unprepared because we are slaves to the evil in this world and strangers to God. If such a person were to die, how could they be in God's presence and be prepared enough to withstand it? So in this life we are tempered. We spend time with God in His Kingdom in small amounts at first. We gradually spend more time and are more intensely introduced to God's presence. When we die we are prepared to be with God without it destroying us.

I don't know about that last part. Except for those saints that reached amazing heights of holiness before death, I would suggest that most all of us are not prepared for that.

This is why I see some glimpses of truth in a concept similar (although not exactly like) to the Catholic dogma of Purgatory. i view it in more of a Lewis-ian way (a la "Great Divorce") which does have important differences... but the fundamental point of Purgatory, that most all of us who are on the road to Salvation will NOT be fully prepared upon death need some sort of "wash room" where we are torn from our vices... a kind of de-tox room

Xpy

Montalban · Jan 19, 2008

WarriorAngel said:
Do you think they don't?

Not at all. This would have been apparent, I would have thought, had you seen further my posts (#10) which is before your reply

WarriorAngel · Jan 19, 2008

Montalban said:
Not at all. This would have been apparent, I would have thought, had you seen further my posts (#10) which is before your reply

I thot i repped you.

Nevertheless, i agree...but i should have pointed out the op's address to further expound.

My fault.

I agree...
And totally missed on giving my point to the wrong person.

cafanto · Mar 19, 2008

I used to wrestle with these types of questions until a couple of years ago. I now understand that we really need to truly understand the meaning of scripture, which means investigating the meaning of the words, and the authors intent. For instance, Christians have beent taught that Enoch was "taken by God" and did not die. Well, one was said to be "taken by God" if they died painlessly, not that they avoided death. In reference to hell, the original meanings of the various Greek and Hebrew words have nothing in common with our modern understanding. There are many misunderstandings of God's interactions with makind due to our lack of study and investigation.

Our Father has both the intent and power to redeem every human being. His will is supreme and He is more than capable of fufilling it. There are many scriptures that point to Jesus as the Saviour of the world.

rusmeister · Mar 19, 2008

cafanto said:
I used to wrestle with these types of questions until a couple of years ago. I now understand that we really need to truly understand the meaning of scripture, which means investigating the meaning of the words, and the authors intent. For instance, Christians have beent taught that Enoch was "taken by God" and did not die. Well, one was said to be "taken by God" if they died painlessly, not that they avoided death. In reference to hell, the original meanings of the various Greek and Hebrew words have nothing in common with our modern understanding. There are many misunderstandings of God's interactions with makind due to our lack of study and investigation.

Our Father has both the intent and power to redeem every human being. His will is supreme and He is more than capable of fufilling it. There are many scriptures that point to Jesus as the Saviour of the world.

Hi cafanto!

We Orthodox agree completely! There is an enormous body of information containing the results of these investigations referred to as the Tradition of the Church, containing expostulations and clarifications of the saints of Scripture and Church doctrine and practices. The wonderful thing is that we don't have to re-invent the wheel (imagine if every physicist had to develop their knowledge of science entirely on their own without the benefit of scientific tradition).

Scripture and Tradition do indicate that Hell is a real possiblity. But through the Church Tradition, we discover that things are not so simple as the Protestant view that predominates in our society (You're gonna burn, baby!!!) usually presents it. The understandings of Gehenna, Hades and Sheol, for instance. And CS Lewis points out how the terminology used in the Scriptures can be both accurate and symbolic. (I recall the idea of a pile of ashes - the state of having been a log - to encompass the ideas of burning, destruction and torment.)

Point is, this stuff is so complex that relying exclusively on myself and my intellect and limited understanding (of history, foreign languages and cultures, etc.) without referring to an authoritative Tradition is insane.

MariaRegina · Apr 24, 2008

nutroll said:
In cooking, there is a process called tempering. It is a way of acclimating a delicate ingredient like eggs to something that would ruin it. If you put eggs directly into a boiling hot liquid, they will curdle and it will ruin the recipe. So the hot liquid must be added to the eggs slowly in small amounts so that they are prepared to be added to the hot liquid. Once they are tempered, they can be added without worrying that they will curdle. This same principle applies to our relationship to God. We are unprepared to be in God's presence. We are unprepared because we are slaves to the evil in this world and strangers to God. If such a person were to die, how could they be in God's presence and be prepared enough to withstand it? So in this life we are tempered. We spend time with God in His Kingdom in small amounts at first. We gradually spend more time and are more intensely introduced to God's presence. When we die we are prepared to be with God without it destroying us. ...

When we die, our soul separates from our body, and then we experience the immediate judgment sometime after that separation. We meet God as a disembodied spirit.

Even still, we cannot see God in His Essence -- but we can encounter His Presence in a way that we do not experience Him on earth. Freed of our bodies and our attachment to earthly things, we are more aware of the spiritual things.

When you look at saints like St. Seraphim of Sarov and the other great saints, they talk about having visions and about meeting their guardian angel. Even children have spoken about meeting their angels until they became corrupted by the world around us. So if we reach theosis, then yes, we will be more aware of God. And like St. Paul, it really won't matter if we live or die because we are with Christ.

Is this the meaning behind your bolded statement above?

However, lest you think I am a heretic, I do believe in the final judgment of the living and the dead at the Final Resurrection when we will be joined with our bodies for all eternity.

GBTWC · Apr 25, 2008

So God becoming a man and walking around healing the sick raising the dead walking on water etc etc is not enough? these are historical facts if they didn't believe back then why would they believe now. It is our choice individually to reject or accept Him. but as another post said God is merciful and just and those who are not truly able to make that choice rationally He will be merciful on whom he chooses. but as for you it sounds like you have the facts if we know the truth we cannot plea ignorance .

I say this with Love worry first about your own salvation becouse you may be that one whom God uses to take His Good news to those your worried about

with Love in Jesus Christ

Hell as a choice?

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