Hebrews

[Tanakh]

Shalom,

Many will tell you that the "Law" was done away with after Messiah came, but neither the book of Hebrews nor the rest of the Scriptures state this. Animal sacrifice was the only thing that was done away with, with all the related commandments and dogmas contained in ordinances. We are still commanded to keep the Torah.
Christians tend to push their idea that "the Torah was done away with", and this is not accurate. This sadly turns off many Jews that are interested in the New Testament, because they KNOW that the Torah is age-abiding and will not be abolished while the present earth exists!

True, the Torah is for all time!

 

[johnd]

The Law is not "done away with." It stands today to condemn all who reject the grace it was created to drive mankind to (first for the Jew then for the Gentile).

 

[johnd]

Jesus said:

Matthew 5:18
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

[Heber]

"Because G-d's children are human beings - made of flesh and blood - the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had the power of death. Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying. We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham. Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before G-d. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. Since he himself has gone through suffering and testing, he is able to help us when we are being tested." - Hebrews 2:14-18

G-d is the creater of all and therefore G-d, who created life and death, is not responsible to take the affect of life upon himself in order to save us. The thought of G-d suffering at the hands of His creation is paramount to heresy and makes no sense. Satan is not anywhere near as powerful as G-d, contrary to Christianity, and so it is not Satan who as the power of death but rather G-d Himself. G-d created Satan and Satan became the tormentor of humanity but free will dictates that the devil never had total power over us because we have always had the power to resist. G-d cannot feel pain and so He cannot suffer, least of all for the sins of people, whom are not His equal, and so how can there be a trinity when G-d promised free will and promised Noah that He would not destroy humanity again?

Again this debate covers a lot of ground and so it can branch off in many directions but I think for now the discussion of the trinity will help lay the ground work for further debate on the Gospel.

Errm, what are you saying exactly - it gets lost in the spiritual gymnastics being applied here!

I repeat, please explain the word 'Elohim' given to a singular G_d.

 

[Heber]

Satan is not anywhere near as powerful as G-d, contrary to Christianity, and so it is not Satan who as the power of death but rather G-d Himself

You have a very odd view of real Christianity - hasatan cannot originate anything himself, all he can do is to copy what G_d has already done. Therefore if you are saying the Christian view means that hasatan had something to do with Yeshua claiming to be G-d (a claim made by the Judaisers of his day) then it is clear that G_d had already sent his only son into the world, and hasatan was copying him. In that case your search is easy - find the original son and you have your Messiah (though it will, obviously, exclude those to whom you have given the title Messiah for the past 2000 years).

Back to you and your explanation of the word 'Elohim' applied to a singular G_d.

 

[ContraMundum]

G-d is the creater of all and therefore G-d, who created life and death, is not responsible to take the affect of life upon himself in order to save us.

Unless of course that was His intention.

The thought of G-d suffering at the hands of His creation is paramount to heresy and makes no sense.

Tzitzis makes no sense. Lots of things don't make "sense" at first in the Judeo-Christian religions. Revelation is all we have. We do and believe because we are told to, not because it makes sense.

Satan is not anywhere near as powerful as G-d, contrary to Christianity, and so it is not Satan who as the power of death but rather G-d Himself. G-d created Satan and Satan became the tormentor of humanity but free will dictates that the devil never had total power over us because we have always had the power to resist.

We agree with all of that. Not sure where you heard otherwise.

G-d cannot feel pain and so He cannot suffer,

Unless He chooses to take on flesh to demonstrate self-sacrificial love.

least of all for the sins of people, whom are not His equal, and so how can there be a trinity when G-d promised free will and promised Noah that He would not destroy humanity again?

I don't see how that point relates to your comments.

Again this debate covers a lot of ground and so it can branch off in many directions but I think for now the discussion of the trinity will help lay the ground work for further debate on the Gospel.

Simple: God's revelation increases with time. The commandments to Adam were not as detailed as the commandments to Moses, for example. Likewise God's Divine self-disclosure. For example, neither Abraham nor Moses ever heard of Sefirot (despite the irrational and unprovable claims of some), that doctrine came later. The continuation of revelation in the NT gives explanation as to why God is called Elohim and Echad- it is more complete revelation.

It all boils down to this: whether you believe in the NT or not.

 

[visionary]

Let's take a look at the six days that God has been dealing with sin. First it started as Iniquity in a spiritual being in heaven. It was not known at that time. God has a real problem on His hands. If He nipped it in the bud, none of His created beings in all of His universe would understand how He could make such a judgement or justify it in their eyes. So He allowed it to manifest itself. He also laid out a plan of salvation for those who got caught up in it and wanted no more part of it. He laid out some ground rules. There would be a tree of the knowledge of good and evil planted in the midst of the garden. Instructions would be given that you are not to eat of the fruit of this tree or you will die. God was providing instruction and teaching all the knowledge of good. Evil was not something that was taught. Iniquity had its opportunity, a portal of entry, at the tree. If the fruit was consumed, then it could enter into the world.

God knew that inquity would fully come to fruitation in Iniquity within six days, His days not our earth time, and if the world never consumed the fruit. God could nip it in the bud with only those spiritual beings consumed by it. Then the war in heaven would have been resolved there alone. But alas, our world opened the door for inquity to enter. So when one third of the angels lost the war in heaven, they had only one place left to dwell.

Inquity is insideous, and God has a very difficult task of introducing a spiritual subject to beings that are being eaten up spiritual by inquity. God's plan was laid out before the foundation of this world, and it dealt with this problem by introducing a spiritual step by step sacrificial system that would awaken within the soul, the way of salvation. One of the greatest hurdles would be believing God, believing that He still loves us, believing that He would manifest Himself in the flesh to save us, that He would, in the flesh, die for us, and thus show us by example the Way to restore the soul and spirit back to His Image.

We are soon to see the final phases of iniquity manifest itself in all aspects at full force. We need to drop the earthly identities, break free from "them/us" and thus separating ourselves from each other. We are all in this together, and we all need to be preparing ourselves for the Kingdom of God that is coming. The war should not be among ourselves but be united against spiritual manifestations of iniquity in all its varied forms. We all should be willing to drop anything that is not of God. Too often we have seen how traditions, preconceived notions, and the past hold us in the spiritual prison, which God has come to save us from.

We are to be spiritually discerning that the dark side covering this world and the minds of men is almost complete. There is no foundation, not in religion, not in the financial world, not in society, not even in the environment, that is going to hold up much longer. When they fall, will they take you down with them. Desparate times, will call for desparate measures, and will you believe them, be caught up in them, and bind yourself with a group fighting.

Right now the call is going out, "babylon babylon is fallen" "come out of her my people" It is the walk up call. When the collapse comes, you might find yourself unable to escape, because you are tied up in it. Our iniquity keeps us from escaping, whether in thought, word, or deeds. We all need to dance to a different tune. Dance to His Appointed Rythmn and know the reason why. Only He will can teach us. Time is short.

 

[Tanakh]

You have a very odd view of real Christianity - hasatan cannot originate anything himself, all he can do is to copy what G_d has already done. Therefore if you are saying the Christian view means that hasatan had something to do with Yeshua claiming to be G-d (a claim made by the Judaisers of his day) then it is clear that G_d had already sent his only son into the world, and hasatan was copying him. In that case your search is easy - find the original son and you have your Messiah (though it will, obviously, exclude those to whom you have given the title Messiah for the past 2000 years).

Back to you and your explanation of the word 'Elohim' applied to a singular G_d.

Satan is bound by the laws of nature according to the power that G-d gave the angels on the second day of creation and so, as I said, Satan only has power over man to the degree that man gives him power. Satan is thus the accusor of G-d and the tempter of man but nonetheless it is people who accept the temptation or not. G-d's juctice determined that the angels would also have free will and so the fact that Satan rose against humanity so as not to be "under" G-d's creation is suspected.

G-d is simply one and cannot be counted as anything but one unit of singularity for the Shema states:

"Hear, O Israel: HASHEM is our G-d, HASHEM is the One and Only." - Deuteronomy 6:4

As The Chafetz Chayim states:

"This is a main principle of our faith [G-d is G-d because He is one]; after the first knowledge that there is a G-d in existence it is necessary to believe with complete faith that He is simply, utterly one in the utmost degree of unity; He is not a physical being; no concepts about a physical being can apply to Him; nothing that can affect a physical being can affect Him; there is none second [like] to Him; and without Him there is no G-d."

Likewise, Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto said in his book The Way of God:

"It is likewise necessary to know that G-d is absolutely simple, having no parts to Him. At the same time, all types of perfection are present in Him, contained in His being, without being seperate parts of it." - 1:5

Thus G-d cannot be "seperate but equal" as the trinity implies for G-d's attributes are part of G-d in the "utmost degree of unity". This is not mere biblical commentary but rather encompasses Halakhah (Jewish law) and are just as binding as the Torah itself because what Rabbi Luzzatto is saying is Torah law. The trinity cannot be true for it is not Monotheism because it seperates G-d's unity on the basis of His "son". Christian law is not in accordance with Jewish law as the Gospels clearly rewrote the origional law.

 

[Heber]

So why use the term 'Elohim' for G_d - it is a plural term? You have beaten around the edges of an answer but you have not actually answered. For the third time... please explain the title Elohim if G_d is one. It's your language, not mine, so you should be able to answer!

 

[visionary]

How do you understand this puzzling question in proverbs..

Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

We know that God gathers wind in His fist. We know that He estabished all the ends of earth. But what about the other questions... who ascended up into heaven or descended and what is his name and what is his son's name?

 

[Tanakh]

So why use the term 'Elohim' for G_d - it is a plural term? You have beaten around the edges of an answer but you have not actually answered. For the third time... please explain the title Elohim if G_d is one. It's your language, not mine, so you should be able to answer!

Elohim means G-d and Eloheinu means Our G-d. The names of G-d are sometimes used in the plural to show G-d's greatness upon the individual Jew but the real name of G-d, YHVH, cannot be spelled nor pronounced.

 

[Tanakh]

How do you understand this puzzling question in proverbs..

Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

We know that God gathers wind in His fist. We know that He estabished all the ends of earth. But what about the other questions... who ascended up into heaven or descended and what is his name and what is his son's name?

The one who ascended and descended was Moses as the author of Proverbs was King Solomon who is stating that he should not consider himself equal to Moses.

 

[visionary]

The one who ascended and descended was Moses as the author of Proverbs was King Solomon who is stating that he should not consider himself equal to Moses.

so ascending up or descending down from Mount Sinai is like God? who is the son? and what is his name?

 

[Heber]

Elohim means G-d and Eloheinu means Our G-d. The names of G-d are sometimes used in the plural to show G-d's greatness upon the individual Jew but the real name of G-d, YHVH, cannot be spelled nor pronounced.

That is the weakest and silliest argument I have ever heard. If one of my students tried this I would fail them immediately, without reading another word. You are saying that G_d is without any doubt, quite categorically one in every sense of the word and all the great Rabbis and the Tanakh agree on this, yes?

But now you openly admit that he permits himself, through the infallible word he wrote, to say that that is not always true and that he wants to call himself by a grossly misleading name that implies he is more than two and has given as a reason for that as being to show his greatness upon individuals.

It is almost as silly as saying that G_d's name is XXXX but even though I have written it, it cannot be spelled or pronounced! derr- you've just spelled it as you have written it!


Please credit me, and him, with some sense - I am reasonably well educated, you know!

 

[Tanakh]

That is the weakest and silliest argument I have ever heard. If one of my students tried this I would fail them immediately, without reading another word. You are saying that G_d is without any doubt, quite categorically one in every sense of the word and all the great Rabbis and the Tanakh agree on this, yes?

But now you openly admit that he permits himself, through the infallible word he wrote, to say that that is not always true and that he wants to call himself by a grossly misleading name that implies he is more than two and has given as a reason for that as being to show his greatness upon individuals.

It is almost as silly as saying that G_d's name is XXXX but even though I have written it, it cannot be written or pronounced! derr- you've just written it!


Please credit me, and him, with some sense - I am reasonably well educated, you know!

What name have I just written that cannot be pronounced?

Also in stating that G-d's name can be used in the plural to indicate His unity on the individual is not an act permitted by G-d but rather by human language.

 

[Heber]

The names of G-d are sometimes used in the plural to show G-d's greatness upon the individual Jew but the real name of G-d, YHVH, cannot be spelled nor pronounced.

You were saying?

In which way does human language have to dictate that G_d is plural - human language has no problem with singular / plural concepts. This argument gets sillier by the minute!

 

[Tanakh]

You were saying?

YHVH is not spelling out the name itself and you cannot pronounce YHVH. It acts as a sort of acronym for the actual Name of G-d without using all the letters of the Name. This form of an acronym can be spelled out because if it is defaced it is not considered taking the Name of G-d in vain.

 

[Tanakh]

In which way does human language have to dictate that G_d is plural - human language has no problem with singular / plural concepts. This argument gets sillier by the minute!

Without language there can be no way of gaining a more complete knowledge about G-d.

 

[Heber]

Without language there can be no way of gaining a more complete knowledge about G-d.

I agree with you - using language to show G_d's plurality does allow us to gain a more complete knowledge about him. We know he is one, yet plural, more than two, in his composition.

Thank you for affirming what I have been telling you.

 

[Tanakh]

I agree with you - using language to show G_d's plurality does allow us to gain a more complete knowledge about him. We know he is one, yet plural, more than two, in his composition.

Thank you for affirming what I have been telling you.

I have in no way affirmed what you have said. I have time and time again shown that G-d is ONE, without plurality in His composition, and saying the opposite, which you just did, is an oxymoron!